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The origins of gender segregation

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    Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 06:51
One of the major characteristics of most Muslim societies today is the pattern of gender segregation.

Although all cultures had been chauvinistic in the past, in most Muslim society there is not only the differentiation in economic roles, but also in the physical separation between men and women.

Was this a custom that had originated in the Middle East prior to Islam? Did it come from the Ancient Greeks? Or was it more a product of religious moral? What was Arabic society life before the coming of Islam? What about the Phoenicians and other ancient Semitic peoples?
At least in ancient Egypt and Persia, although men ruled, women seemed to have a very important role in the day-to-day economic and social life. These customs seemed to have changed by the Middle Ages. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 07:31
It goes back to Judaism I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 08:22

The origin of it I'm not sure about, to an extent gender segregation occurs in all societies. Even in primary school, boys make friends with boys and girls with girls.

In the middle east gender segregation has certainly taken on a far stricter form. I specifically say middle east, not muslim, because gender segregation isn't particularly strong in Indonesia, but it is with Israeli Jews. It's also pre-Islamic, the writings of Matthew in the Bible are very similar to what a modern Palestinian might say on the issue (complete with the same exaggerations that you might expect). Relgion in fact has been shaped by this culture, and many of the pro-segragation attitudes transmitted through religion have nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the culture of the transmitter.
 
Ancient Persia I understand had a far more liberal attitude to gender segregation than either ancient Rome or pre-islamic Arabia. Especially towards the latter Roman period in the middle east (500-700 AD) attitudes were more conservative than anywhere else in the middle east.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 11:24
It goes back to male jealousy and insecurity. Natural defensive emotional responses to protect the  female asset.  When people think segregation, they think Islam - but segregation was also the order of the day in the West not too long ago.  The difference now is that the West is modern and progressive, as opposed to archaic and regressive.


Edited by Zagros - 06 Dec 2011 at 11:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 12:17
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

 [] but segregation was also the order of the day in the West not too long ago.  The difference now is that the West is modern and progressive, as opposed to archaic and regressive.
This is a silly generalisation, in my opinion. What has changed is for example largely related to the fact that women doesn't have to be around their children all the time and with that comes the ability to take "male" jobs. I'm extraordinarily tired of the black/white description of then/now that is very popular here now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 12:34
I agree with Styrbiorn. I don't see any sign of women being segregated in European society (other than monks and nuns) at any historical time, even during the Commonwealth in England. I remember for example statistical data from licensing courts in medieval times showing that the majority of innkeeper and brewers in medieval England were women. Or you can look at crowd paintings by realist artists of the period (or indeed by relgious painters depicting background crowds).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 14:01
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

One of the major characteristics of most Muslim societies today is the pattern of gender segregation.

Although all cultures had been chauvinistic in the past, in most Muslim society there is not only the differentiation in economic roles, but also in the physical separation between men and women.

Was this a custom that had originated in the Middle East prior to Islam? Did it come from the Ancient Greeks? Or was it more a product of religious moral? What was Arabic society life before the coming of Islam? What about the Phoenicians and other ancient Semitic peoples?
At least in ancient Egypt and Persia, although men ruled, women seemed to have a very important role in the day-to-day economic and social life. These customs seemed to have changed by the Middle Ages. 
 
Define segregation please.
 
The reason I day that is that there is a lot of misinformation about sex politics within muslim countries that are mistakenly identified as segregation while they are actually not.
 
Also one might think that segregation is limited to muslim countries while in fact that is also not true nor it was at any time.
 
A third mistake is to think europe didn't have "segregation" of the sexes which is also not true.
 
For example, a quick reading through the ultimate source of the Arab middle ages, the Arabian Nights, you will discover women being anything from cunning politicians to mob bosses. Real history even mentions women in the heart of Arabia leading armies and ruling states as late as the early 20th century.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 15:17
'Segregation' means being kept separate from adult men, other than the husband or legal owner or client, or, if allowed in public, required to stay in allocated places (as in orthodox Jewish synagogues) separate from males.
 
Having restricted political or economic rights or being required to follow 'female' occupations is not segregation.  For instance the Salic law is not an example of segregation.
 
If anyone can quote me a recorded instance of segregation in Germanic or Celtic Europe I'd be happy to see it.
 
In many places some women are segregated and not others, as for instance in Periclean Greece.
 
PS In my earlier post in mentioning 'Europe' I meant modern and medieval Europe, not the classical world.


Edited by gcle2003 - 06 Dec 2011 at 15:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 15:26

You have a very narrow definition of it.  how about segregation in schools; segregation in gents' clubs; Victorian smoking rooms for gents etc.  and the prevalent derogatory view of female intelligence and susceptibility to vice right up until the success of the suffragette movement and beyond?  Was it not taboo for females to be seen with unrelated men until the 60s in society?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 18:07
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

One of the major characteristics of most Muslim societies today is the pattern of gender segregation.

Although all cultures had been chauvinistic in the past, in most Muslim society there is not only the differentiation in economic roles, but also in the physical separation between men and women.

Was this a custom that had originated in the Middle East prior to Islam? Did it come from the Ancient Greeks? Or was it more a product of religious moral? What was Arabic society life before the coming of Islam? What about the Phoenicians and other ancient Semitic peoples?
At least in ancient Egypt and Persia, although men ruled, women seemed to have a very important role in the day-to-day economic and social life. These customs seemed to have changed by the Middle Ages. 
 
For example, a quick reading through the ultimate source of the Arab middle ages, the Arabian Nights, you will discover women being anything from cunning politicians to mob bosses
 
Al-Jassas
Al, Your ultimate source is damn reliable. It was originally an ancient Indian collection of magical stories then Persian Sassanids added more stories and a frame (Shahrzad and King) to it so it was call "Hazar Afsan" (Thousand legends). After Islamic era, Arab story tellers translate it to Arabic and named it the legends of thousand and one nights. They might added some magical Arabic stories to it as well. Now, how do you consider a collection of magical stories for amusement which a big chunk of it is related to Indian and Persian kingdoms before Islam, as an ultimate source for justifying your point of view about Arabic women's roles after Islam? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 18:54
Originally posted by Harburs Harburs wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

One of the major characteristics of most Muslim societies today is the pattern of gender segregation.

Although all cultures had been chauvinistic in the past, in most Muslim society there is not only the differentiation in economic roles, but also in the physical separation between men and women.

Was this a custom that had originated in the Middle East prior to Islam? Did it come from the Ancient Greeks? Or was it more a product of religious moral? What was Arabic society life before the coming of Islam? What about the Phoenicians and other ancient Semitic peoples?
At least in ancient Egypt and Persia, although men ruled, women seemed to have a very important role in the day-to-day economic and social life. These customs seemed to have changed by the Middle Ages. 
 
For example, a quick reading through the ultimate source of the Arab middle ages, the Arabian Nights, you will discover women being anything from cunning politicians to mob bosses
 
Al-Jassas
Al, Your ultimate source is damn reliable. It was originally an ancient Indian collection of magical stories then Persian Sassanids added more stories and a frame (Shahrzad and King) to it so it was call "Hazar Afsan" (Thousand legends). After Islamic era, Arab story tellers translate it to Arabic and named it the legends of thousand and one nights. They might added some magical Arabic stories to it as well. Now, how do you consider a collection of magical stories for amusement which a big chunk of it is related to Indian and Persian kingdoms before Islam, as an ultimate source for justifying your point of view about Arabic women's roles after Islam? 
 
Which version did you read?
 
Each country has its own version and its own stories that don't exist in the other versions. The Indian element of the nights is very limited and almost nearly confined to Sindbad. The Persian element is quite large but it is fully Islamised. The rest are Arab stories based on the Arabic (and to a lesser extent Islamic era Persian) society. Most of the stories aren't about magic at all (indeed neither Ali Baba nor Aladin are even part of the canonical nights) there are either moralistic in nature (nearly all of Persian origin) or humouristic like Khalifah Al-Sayyad or Basim Al-Haddad.
 
Why do I consider the nights a source? Because the stories themselves are told by story tellers, ordinary people not refined highly educated people. These stories reflect the society where they came from and indeed when we compare the history, the real history as written by the few pre-modern diarists, you will be amazed on how close the stories in the nights to the real thing.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 19:11
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

You have a very narrow definition of it.  how about segregation in schools; segregation in gents' clubs; Victorian smoking rooms for gents etc. 

Those all fit my definition. In fact they do so very well. So do separate toilets for men and women, and separate mens and womens wards in hospitals.  Which incidentally are very much a creation of the modern world.
 
Quote
and the prevalent derogatory view of female intelligence and susceptibility to vice right up until the success of the suffragette movement and beyond? 
That is not segregation. The essence of segregation is physical separation in different areas. Those might be reasons for segregation, but they aren't themselves segregation. 
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 Was it not taboo for females to be seen with unrelated men until the 60s in society?
May be somewhere. Certainly not in Europe at any period. Ever see film of couples jitterbugging? I have pictures of me in dance halls in the fifties - they involve women and men just as much as the Southampton balls did in Jane Austen's time.
 
Royal families and aristocratic ones might be segregated from the common herd, but not women and men from each other. Chaperones might be required in some circles in some societies, but after all if men and women were segregated there wouldn't be any need for chaperones, would there?
 
In re al Jassas's post about the 1001 Nights - I agree with his attitude but don't know enouh about the subject to know what society it depicts. I'd make a similar point about Chaucer, or the tales of the Mabinogion for instance. Legends even ones with magical elements are usually repositories of information about how people live when they are not being magicked.


Edited by gcle2003 - 06 Dec 2011 at 19:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 19:17
Segregation in schools is not separating adult males from girls since there were male teachers, it is separating young males from young females; to protect the latter from the former.  And regardless, it is segregation and it did occur in Europe/West.  So I am right.

And I don't know if you deliberately misconstrued my point when mentioning the suffragettes, but it was that women were seen more as property to be protected and so segregation was the preference.  I never claimed there was some sort of legislative requirement.


Edited by Zagros - 06 Dec 2011 at 19:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2011 at 21:46
Let's make my point clear. What I mean by segregation, I do not refer to specific environments, such as military, political, and legal institutions which had traditionally only accepted men in almost all cultures until recently, but rather the separation of males and females in the spheres of everyday life. 

Let's talk about a few examples:

- the exclusion of women in most public spaces. All those who could be seen on the streets are men; waiters, shopkeepers, market vendors, receptionists, cleaners... and all those who socialise in the tea houses and restaurants are men 

- during family dinners, the men eat at one table and the women at another

- during visits of friends/family, the men socialise in one room and the women in another. 

- when a woman comes into the view of a man that is not her husband, she'd have to cover herself up, or at least her hair. 

- even at celebrations, the men all dance together at one corner and the women dance together in another, but you never see a man dance with a woman

- in the theatre and stadiums there are separate sections for men and women

Many of these practices are common in Muslim countries, but they have never been the norm in most European countries, and for what I read, there also were not in ancient Persia and Egypt. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2011 at 02:56
Originally posted by Harburs Harburs wrote:

It goes back to Judaism I think.


You can bet on it. Gender segregation as it is seen in Islam is not seen in the pre-Colonial Americas, but it is observed in China as well.
Curiously, such a backward minded society like Spain under the inquisition, had some very strong couragious women.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2011 at 02:59
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I agree with Styrbiorn. I don't see any sign of women being segregated in European society (other than monks and nuns) at any historical time, even during the Commonwealth in England. I remember for example statistical data from licensing courts in medieval times showing that the majority of innkeeper and brewers in medieval England were women. Or you can look at crowd paintings by realist artists of the period (or indeed by relgious painters depicting background crowds).


Among the Native Americans, women usually have an equalitary status. That's specially noticeable among the Iroquois, where women selected the political leaders. In fact, some American researchers have found a part of the inspiration for feminism in the freedom among native women.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2011 at 03:04
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Let's make my point clear. What I mean by segregation, I do not refer to specific environments, such as military, political, and legal institutions which had traditionally only accepted men in almost all cultures until recently, but rather the separation of males and females in the spheres of everyday life. 

Let's talk about a few examples:

- the exclusion of women in most public spaces. All those who could be seen on the streets are men; waiters, shopkeepers, market vendors, receptionists, cleaners... and all those who socialise in the tea houses and restaurants are men 

- during family dinners, the men eat at one table and the women at another

- during visits of friends/family, the men socialise in one room and the women in another. 

- when a woman comes into the view of a man that is not her husband, she'd have to cover herself up, or at least her hair. 

- even at celebrations, the men all dance together at one corner and the women dance together in another, but you never see a man dance with a woman

- in the theatre and stadiums there are separate sections for men and women

Many of these practices are common in Muslim countries, but they have never been the norm in most European countries, and for what I read, there also were not in ancient Persia and Egypt. 


These practises are seen as abnormal among the countries with Iberian culture, as well. For instance, a bunch of men dancing together could be considered here a bunch of homosexuals, and women dancing together would be though to be leasbians Confused

In Iberian culture there was a discrimination in roles in the past. Man has to work outside and women at home. But there was more a matter of the nature of the work that existed in the past, that was based mainly in brute force.

I know that is strange, but the Iberian culture is not really that machist. In the past was overprotective on women, but it has never forced them to dress, to cover theirs femenity, or to achieve if they can.





Edited by pinguin - 07 Dec 2011 at 03:05
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It existed in Korean culture up to 19th century.
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Again, you tailor segregation on european standards of mid 19th century onwards. Gender segregation existed in every culture but manifested itself in various ways.
 
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Let's make my point clear. What I mean by segregation, I do not refer to specific environments, such as military, political, and legal institutions which had traditionally only accepted men in almost all cultures until recently, but rather the separation of males and females in the spheres of everyday life. 

Let's talk about a few examples:

- the exclusion of women in most public spaces. All those who could be seen on the streets are men; waiters, shopkeepers, market vendors, receptionists, cleaners... and all those who socialise in the tea houses and restaurants are men 
 
That is not true at all. My aunt had a shop in the middle of the old Jeddah market surrounded by tens of men owned shops and there were several dozen of her kind selling clothes. You can see women everywhere including during public executions. Segregation happens only in crowded events like sports but most public gatherings there are more women than men.
 
This is even more true in most other Islamic countries.
 
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:


- during family dinners, the men eat at one table and the women at another
 
Again that is not true, at least the generalisation part. Banquets yet, family dinners no and this is in our own culture in Saudi Arabia. Outside Saudi Arabia such segregation even in banquets is extremely rare and exceptional.
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:


- during visits of friends/family, the men socialise in one room and the women in another. 
 
Again this is not entirely true. My father's side of the family we socialise, my mother's side we segregate. This is connected to customs. In Kuwaite where hijab is not common women still socialise separately from men despite working with them in the same office because it is the custom there to segregate when socialising.
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:


- when a woman comes into the view of a man that is not her husband, she'd have to cover herself up, or at least her hair. 
 
This is directly connected with how religious a woman is. Plus it has nothing to do with segregation. Indeed in the Kuwaite example women who don't wear hijab don't socialise with men while in Egypt it is the exact opposite.
 
Also this existed in europe up untill the middle of the 19th century. Women never went out or socialised without wearing a bonnet or a hat.

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

- even at celebrations, the men all dance together at one corner and the women dance together in another, but you never see a man dance with a woman
 
Actually europe here is the exception. All over the world women celebrate and dance separately from men. Nowadays this has become the norm although dancing is still segregated. Plus this too is not a sufficient reason to talk about segregation.

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

- in the theatre and stadiums there are separate sections for men and women
 
Other than Saudi Arabia and Iran I really want to know where did you get this generalisation from?
 
 
Al-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 07 Dec 2011 at 13:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2011 at 14:14
While one may discuss the "division of labor" as a socio-historical phenomenon, the bringing forth of a term such as "gender segregation" is not only an aberration but a wilful misconstruction of historical realities for the sake of contemporary political malarkey with 19th century American roots. All I care to say about this subject can be drawn from the reaction of the Romans to the Iberians of Hispania...for goodness sakes men and women danced with each other!
 
To understand the problematic read this essay:
 
In Search of the Origins of Dance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2011 at 19:40
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Again, you tailor segregation on european standards of mid 19th century onwards. Gender segregation existed in every culture but manifested itself in various ways.
Segregation is segregation. Women are 'segregated' (at the same time of course so are men) whenever women are separated phsysically from me simply because of their different gender, just as racial segregation occurs whenever people of different races are kept apart just because of their race, or, indeed when laboratory-strain mice are kept separate from the general run.
 
There's not ipso facto anything right or wrong about 'segregation'. I gave the example of segregation in the provision of different toilets for men and women, which is typical of the modern world - can anybody really think that that is either right or wrong?
Quote
 
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Let's make my point clear. What I mean by segregation, I do not refer to specific environments, such as military, political, and legal institutions which had traditionally only accepted men in almost all cultures until recently, but rather the separation of males and females in the spheres of everyday life. 

Let's talk about a few examples:

- the exclusion of women in most public spaces. All those who could be seen on the streets are men; waiters, shopkeepers, market vendors, receptionists, cleaners... and all those who socialise in the tea houses and restaurants are men 
 
That is not true at all.
 
What's not true? It may not be true in Muslim countries or nowadays, but you're claiming apparently it has never been true of any society anywhere, which is a pretty tenuous claim.
Quote
My aunt had a shop in the middle of the old Jeddah market surrounded by tens of men owned shops and there were several dozen of her kind selling clothes. You can see women everywhere including during public executions. Segregation happens only in crowded events like sports but most public gatherings there are more women than men.
 
This is even more true in most other Islamic countries.
 
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:


- during family dinners, the men eat at one table and the women at another
 
Again that is not true, at least the generalisation part. Banquets yet, family dinners no and this is in our own culture in Saudi Arabia. Outside Saudi Arabia such segregation even in banquets is extremely rare and exceptional.
Same point. There certainly are primitive cultures where women and men eat separately.
Calvo didn't say it was true of Musim countries (or anywhere else): he was just defining what he meant by segregation.
Quote
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:


- during visits of friends/family, the men socialise in one room and the women in another. 
 
Again this is not entirely true. My father's side of the family we socialise, my mother's side we segregate. This is connected to customs. In Kuwaite where hijab is not common women still socialise separately from men despite working with them in the same office because it is the custom there to segregate when socialising.
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:


- when a woman comes into the view of a man that is not her husband, she'd have to cover herself up, or at least her hair. 
 
This is directly connected with how religious a woman is. Plus it has nothing to do with segregation. Indeed in the Kuwaite example women who don't wear hijab don't socialise with men while in Egypt it is the exact opposite.
Agreed that covering the hair is not segregation. The burqah might arguably be , because it is like requiring the women to carry her own little room around with her.
Quote  
Also this existed in europe up untill the middle of the 19th century. Women never went out or socialised without wearing a bonnet or a hat.
Neither did men. However, again, having to follow dress codes is not segregation.
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Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

- even at celebrations, the men all dance together at one corner and the women dance together in another, but you never see a man dance with a woman
 
Actually europe here is the exception. All over the world women celebrate and dance separately from men. Nowadays this has become the norm although dancing is still segregated. Plus this too is not a sufficient reason to talk about segregation.
I don't understand the last bit. If the men and the women cannot dance together that is indeed segregation. I agree with you though that in the dance segregation is more common world-wide than mixing. Mixed dancing is not restricted to Europe (or 'the West') though. There are several instances of African cultures where men and women dance together (even though assuming different roles/playing different characters).
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Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

- in the theatre and stadiums there are separate sections for men and women
 
Other than Saudi Arabia and Iran I really want to know where did you get this generalisation from?
 
Al-Jassas
It's part of his definition: a theoretical example.


Edited by gcle2003 - 07 Dec 2011 at 19:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2011 at 10:25
We could spend hours arguing about the definition of segregation and to what extent these practices take place in Muslim countries, but let's not ignore the obvious.

I've been to 4 Muslim countries: Morrocco, Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey, and except perhaps for Turkey, what struck me the most was that extremely few women could be seen on the streets, either working, socialising, or even shopping. Many of the jobs typically occupied by women in the west, such as receptionists, waiters or cleaners, are usually done by men. 
Except in big cosmopolitan cities like Cairo, Casablanca or Rabat, it is extremely rare to see couples going out together, or even a mixed group of men and women socialising together. 
Regarding eating at separate tables or socialising in separate rooms, this is the norm in the families of quite a few Muslims that I've known. 

You may want to call it segregation or not, but there certainly IS a big difference in the "physical spaces" of different genders in Muslim countries. 

"Segregation" is also not the same as male chauvinism. For example, Mexico has a very male-chauvinistic culture yet Mexican women are fully integrated into the everyday public life. 



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2011 at 14:49

Hello to you all

 
First to Graham, I was just commenting about Calvo's generalisations thats all.
 
Now for Calvo's notes, again its all comes down to social norms, religion has nothing to do with that. In the big cities as you noted segregation as you defined is not prevalent, at least not in the way you descibe. In rural areas, and I think I already pointed out that, things are different. Here there are societies where you can screw your wife but you can't see her face (seriously, a woman was taken by her family and she filed for divorce when her husband whom she has been married to for 20 years and had kids with lifted her veil because he never saw here face). Saying that all muslim societies are as extreme as these clows is unjust.
 
As for the jobs angle, well one must realise that with 30% unemployment for men, employment for women is considered a luxury in the conservative parts of the Islamic world. However women are still the majority of high school and college graduates and these are not segregated places.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2011 at 14:59
Al Jassas,

I agree with you in a point: country people are usually more ignorant, and brutish, than people of the cities. And that's worldwide.

No matter that, Islam is famous in the west for its backwarness, and the preservation of arbitrary secular customs that protect males and affect women.





Edited by pinguin - 08 Dec 2011 at 15:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2011 at 17:04
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



No matter that, Islam is famous in the west for its backwarness, and the preservation of arbitrary secular customs that protect males and affect women.



 
Sorry Pinguin but that is not true. It is the muslims who impose their inherited social views and dress them with the attire of religion because they know that this will prop up their own superstitions and give them the aura of holiness. Imagine a religous scholar defending the right of women who got pregnant out of wedlock or rape, he would be hanged by society and will never ever win an election.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2011 at 17:25
But why Muslims tolerate idiocities like the burka? That's what people wonder elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2011 at 19:26
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

But why Muslims tolerate idiocities like the burka? That's what people wonder elsewhere.
 
We tolerate you...that should give you a clue.
 
drgonzaga:
 
If you can't come up with a more intelligent answer, please don't bother to answer.
Here is another clue and food for a thought - we also tolerate you...
 
~ Northman 
 
 


Edited by Northman - 08 Dec 2011 at 20:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2011 at 19:44
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



No matter that, Islam is famous in the west for its backwarness, and the preservation of arbitrary secular customs that protect males and affect women.



 
Sorry Pinguin but that is not true. It is the muslims who impose their inherited social views and dress them with the attire of religion because they know that this will prop up their own superstitions and give them the aura of holiness. Imagine a religous scholar defending the right of women who got pregnant out of wedlock or rape, he would be hanged by society and will never ever win an election.
 
Al-Jassas


There's top down and there's bottom up. Islam is NOT bottom up, its principles are supposedly infallible divine edict but were in fact written by people hundreds upon hundreds of years ago.  It was not written as part of some grass roots movement.  It's true, many Muslims are brainwashed, uneducated, simple people who actually believe the crap that religious authorities continue to come out with because they are superstitiously blackmailed into doing so in the enforced Islamic theocracies.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2011 at 08:46
Quote There's top down and there's bottom up. Islam is NOT bottom up, its principles are supposedly infallible divine edict but were in fact written by people hundreds upon hundreds of years ago.  It was not written as part of some grass roots movement.  It's true, many Muslims are brainwashed, uneducated, simple people who actually believe the crap that religious authorities continue to come out with because they are superstitiously blackmailed into doing so in the enforced Islamic theocracies.
Islam is a non-heirachical religion. There is God, and there is man. There are no distinctions between men in Islam. At most, you can only have 2 levels.
 
Heirachies, theocracies and priesthoods are established independently of religion for the reason (or excuse) of governing, teaching, or otherwise organising. In various different times and places in muslim countries those heirachies have been both 'bottom up' and 'top down' systems.
 
Anyway, I object to two things in the conversation:
1) That you're all arguing about the meaning of segregation when it's obvious what Calvo meant.
2) That you're mostly saying 'muslim' when you mean Arab.
 
Arab societies segregate more than European ones. That is indisputable. Malay society does not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2011 at 15:55
Well, I will "free" you of that burden, Northman...this reply is formal notice that I will no longer participate in this charade that concerns itself very little with history and more as a platform for the expression of bigotry, racism, and psychological phobias masquerading as historical analysis. 
 

Edited by drgonzaga - 10 Dec 2011 at 00:29
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