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The origins of gender segregation

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calvo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2011 at 16:58
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


Arab societies segregate more than European ones. That is indisputable. Malay society does not.

This is interesting.
On the other hand, I've also heard that there's a growing fundamentalist movement in Indonesia. Are Indonesian fundamentalist more "liberal" in the aspect of gender segregation than the Wahabis?
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2011 at 18:28
a) If Calvo's intent was to somehow denigrate Islam then he shiold have said so in the first place instead of passing it off as a legitimate inquiry into gender segregation, which I gather is also a feature of life among baboons. It would be interesting for instance to establish whether it is a phenomenon of primates alone, or other highher mammals and birds.
 
To treat this as yet another Islam vs the West bashing (with an occasional one at the Jews) is abysmal. There are many more examples of gender segregation than two rom Africa to North America), and it is much more fundamental than the relatively modern distinctions between today's major religions.
 
b) Nothman's intervention was totally uncalled for, certainly without a simultaneous rebuke to Pinguin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2011 at 18:45
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

b) Nothman's intervention was totally uncalled for, certainly without a simultaneous rebuke to Pinguin.
 
How weird it may be, I see no problem with Pinguins posts in this thread, whereas the remark from drgonzaga is a clear insult to Pinguin and exclusively meant as such.
Drgonzagas remark was not meant as a contribution to the subject in any way.
That is why I made my remark. 
 
We can take it up in the mods room if you like.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2011 at 00:08
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


Arab societies segregate more than European ones. That is indisputable. Malay society does not.

This is interesting.
On the other hand, I've also heard that there's a growing fundamentalist movement in Indonesia. Are Indonesian fundamentalist more "liberal" in the aspect of gender segregation than the Wahabis?
Generally, yes.
Indonesian fundamentalists try to copy Arab and Pakistani culture and ways of practicing Islam, but this only works to a certain extent. I was under the impression that fundamentalism was shrinking in Indonesia, but I don't really know to be honest.
 
South East Asian muslims, and as far as I am aware this even includes the most right wing elements, are perfectly happy with dating for example. While mainstream and even liberal Arabs or Pakistanis can be quite opposed to it.
 
I should also say, that Pakistanis are probably stricter than Arabs (generally) when it comes to dating/marriage, but much less strict when it comes to general interaction or covering hair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2011 at 00:58
This all seems rather Freudian in a way doesn' it? There seems to be a huge dollop of angst over women that obsesses many religious fundamentalists, and particularly at this time in history, those in the Middle East who claim strong affection for Islam. It is a sort of fearful rumination of "what if"- what if women had positons of power, what if women expressed themselves freely, what if women could be open about sexuality, what if women controlled their own reproduction,.....
 
Most of us have our anxieties about life in one way or another, and to a greater or lesser extent. But as far as I know there is nowhere that instutionalizes these to the extent the more extreme Islamic countries do today. What is going on in the Middle East seems pretty unambiguous in regard to women's place in society. There seems to be a strong need to control females, and to downplay, or squelch out alltogether feelings of sexuality outside of a very narrowly defined activity. There is a certain parallel here with male adolescence, where boys feel tremendous uncertainty about their identity and sexuality, and fear how they may look to others, or perceive themselves, when to time comes to relate to women, or to form a bond with one. What if it all goes sideways? Horrors. How much safer to just have a society in which women are told what to do. Less chance there of messy entanglements, and of situations where one could lose face.
 
 
 
".....Perhaps he has a mentality so sex-obsessed and so fearful of women that these feverish imaginings seem perfectly normal to him. And they are quite normal among Islamic fundamentalists, like the Nour Party in Egypt that demands strict prohibitions against mixed bathing, “fornication”, and the appointment of women to leadership roles—and got a quarter of the votes in last week’s election in Egypt.

But the point is not that Muslims are weird; they are all too normal. All the “Abrahamic” religions, as Muslims call them, have traditionally been sex-obsessed and terrified of women, and the fundamentalists among them still are....."

http://www.straight.com/article-560681/vancouver/gwynne-dyer-fear-free-women-middle-eastern-monotheisms
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2011 at 13:45
That men are afraid of women is certainly a powerful factor in explaining gender segregation in all cultures. There's nothing particularly middle eastern about it It's at its highest of course when the woman is menstruating or giving birth (or merely pregnant), and therefore at the height of her magical mysteries. The fear of habitually mixing with women is not just  the result of fearing women's magical crafts but also one of becoming feminised. African warriors for instance must avoid menstruating women on campaign.
 
Samson and John the Baptist are figures that conceptualise the danger of mixing with women - as of course is the story of Adam and Eve itself.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TaylorS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 05:42
The vast majority of societies are at least mildly patriarchal, and if there any pre-modern societies with gender equality I have not heard of them (and do no confuse sexual equality with matrilocal marriage customs and matrilineal lineage systems).

What I have always wondered is when the extreme misogyny typical of the Middle East originated. It certainly did not exist in ancient Mesopotamia or Egypt (they were typically patriarchal, but not strongly so, and some women had important religious roles, ditto in Egypt) The Classical Greeks, however, were misogynist to the point of absurdity and I have heard suggestions that it was Hellenistic influence that brought that extreme misogyny to the Middle East. Another source may also have been the constant flow of nomadic herders from Arabia into Mesopotamia and the Levant, Nomadic herding cultures tend to be more misogynist than agriculturalists for various complex reasons.


Edited by TaylorS - 30 Jun 2012 at 05:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 16:43
As long as it is also borne in mind that 'patriarchal' does not solely mean the father has authority, rather than, commonly enough, the mother's brother.
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