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Topic ClosedThe Real Immigrants

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Real Immigrants
    Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 05:07
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Originally posted by easternbul easternbul wrote:

Honestly my friend,but who are the real immigrants?I mean the Mexicans lived their since thousand of years and now they are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS?Can not understand it.In my oppinion the true immigrants were coming from Europe.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 12:26
The above mentioned is vividly illustrated in this little video. Here a Native American girl discusses these things with some people demonstrating to ban what they call illegal immigration:
 
MEXICAN NATIVE CHICK SAYING F*** EUROPEAN PEOPLE
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 14:01
^^^ Now that's evidence!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 14:22
Boy everybody seems to have just too much time on their hands...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 16:43
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Boy everybody seems to have just too much time on their hands...
 
 
Well, drgonzaga, it seems that you have hit the proverbial nail on its requisite téte, vis a vis a contrario a priori ab initio! Such perspicaciousness ab ovo usque ad mala reminds one of the opacity of aqua, water by another name, but altogether more Gordian in expression! Alis grave nil, alis grave nil my friend Smile
 
 
Now that's called having too much time on my hands Big smile
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 00:05
Come on, it's okay to just move onto a peace of land illegally without any plans of citizenship because of your ancestors? I'm not against keeping these people and allowing them to become American citizens (and reforming American immigration laws), but it is disgusting that they think that they are above laws and treaties. I wish I could just move into Italy or Scotland and just mooch off of them because my ancestors lived there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 10:01

This is exactly what is happening in Palestine right now. The US/EU support the jews "right of return" to a land they were supposed to have lived in some 2000 years ago on while denying Palestinians their rights on their own land they already live in.

 
 
 
Al-Jassas

 



Edited by Al Jassas - 26 Aug 2009 at 15:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 14:30
No, Al-Jassas, it is not her land. It was her ancestors' land from 500 years ago. It is the same, as you say, as the Jews are doing in Palestine (I have always compared what Israel to Palestine the same as what whites in my own country did to the natives, even with the Natives killing white civilians just as Palestinian have done). Israel's creation was one of the most inane things the West has ever done in the Middle East. It was clearly imperialist in its nature.The Holocaust excuse does not work. How can a people who were just abuse and killed literally by the trainload then walk onto a piece of foreign land, alienate and kill many of its inhabitants, and then think it is morally okay? It's sickening. The Holocaust was a disgusting act of genocide, but the Zionists shamed it by using it as a justification for imperialist takeover. However, today we can't just expel six million people from a plot of land over something wrong that happened three generations ago, the only logical thing to do is to demolish Israeli settlements and give Palestinians a chance at a peaceful state that will co-exist with Israel.

It is this arrogance of both the Jewish settlers, who think that all you have to do to own a piece of land is to circumcise your kids on it, and these illegal immigrants, who mooch off of a nation illegally with no plans of really contributing to the society in which they live. I can't believe that the children of illegal immigrants, American citizens, can get free college. Most Americans in the middle class just take out student loans and go into debt to pay off later. One of my friends, who was to be my roommate but had to withdraw due to his financial situation, doesn't get free college. He gets to go to our community college and still go into debt. These children could apply for generous financial aid and still be able to go into manageable just like every other American child, but instead get a free ride. It's just ridiculous.

Please, Al Jassas, realize that not all Americans are Zionists like Mike Huckabee. Many of us have sympathy for the Palestinian people (the majority that do not blow up children). There are many Jews in Israel who hold the same views as me on the two-state solution, and it's disgusting that some in the Jewish community call anyone who doesn't agree with aggressive imperialism against the Palestinian people a self-hating Jew.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 22:10

The problem with American point of view is that it is usually shortsighted. What we have with Latin America immigration is not something between the so called "White" man (some are quite dark, actually; look Obama) and Mexican natives returning home. What American see is something happening ALL OVER the Americas: Haitians move to Dominican Republic, Bolivians to Argentina, Peruvians to Chile, Amazonian people to Brazil cities, Central Americans to Mexico!!

Those movements are motivated simply by economical reasons and nothing else.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 22:55
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

What American see is something happening ALL OVER the Americas: Haitians move to Dominican Republic, Bolivians to Argentina, Peruvians to Chile, Amazonian people to Brazil cities, Central Americans to Mexico!!

 
 
I'm sorry but that is just how you see it, pinguin.  Most of Americans are not aware of such movements nor they care even if they are.  And most of them don't even care to locate half of those countries on a map.  Most of them are annoyed with Chavez because he's vocal, some of them are aware of Lula and Evo Morales, but that's as far as they go for 99% of them.  I know.  I live here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 23:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The problem with American point of view is that it is usually shortsighted. What we have with Latin America immigration is not something between the so called "White" man (some are quite dark, actually; look Obama) and Mexican natives returning home. What American see is something happening ALL OVER the Americas: Haitians move to Dominican Republic, Bolivians to Argentina, Peruvians to Chile, Amazonian people to Brazil cities, Central Americans to Mexico!!

Those movements are motivated simply by economical reasons and nothing else.


I agree it is nonsense to loath over the vast influx of immigrants when the US probably needs more prospect workers in all industries.  Contrary to popular belief not all immigrants are disfortunate and unskilled labor. Some do have degrees and if the US is wise enough, they would probably put this use to good hands.

As the Latino population is now 13% the African American of the US will no longer be seen as the "black sheep"no pun intended.

Some of immigrants were seen as threats to the working blue collar class as with the "Chinese Exclusion Acts" forbid anymore incoming chinese immigrants to come in or open up a business in the US.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 23:33
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

...I'm sorry but that is just how you see it, pinguin.  Most of Americans are not aware of such movements nor they care even if they are.  And most of them don't even care to locate half of those countries on a map.  Most of them are annoyed with Chavez because he's vocal, some of them are aware of Lula and Evo Morales, but that's as far as they go for 99% of them.  I know.  I live here.
 
Most Americans aren't aware of how the world is either. So, I am not sorry (why should I?).
Never saw one of these maps? LOL
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 00:26
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by King Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

...I'm sorry but that is just how you see it, pinguin.  Most of Americans are not aware of such movements nor they care even if they are.  And most of them don't even care to locate half of those countries on a map.  Most of them are annoyed with Chavez because he's vocal, some of them are aware of Lula and Evo Morales, but that's as far as they go for 99% of them.  I know.  I live here.
 
Most Americans aren't aware of how the world is either. So, I am not sorry (why should I?).
Never saw one of these maps? LOL
 
 
  
 
 
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
 
Very funny pinguin!
 
Right after I made that post, I realised that you meant 'Americans' as more like the people in both continents, not just in U.S.  Now that makes much more sense.  I just assumed that because I thought this thread is about just U.S immigrant, but it doesn't have to be and even if it is, your point is still valid and relevant.  And I was just echoing your point without realizing it. No disagreement here no you should not be sorry, just me.  and Please forgive my transgression.  I guess it was just me that who was shortsighted trying to impose 'how I see it' to the others.Embarrassed   I'm grateful that you didn't get too upset with me.
 
those maps arewithout real too funny.  i'm gonna have save it and show them to my other 'American' friends.  thanks pinguin and take care.  


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 27 Aug 2009 at 01:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 02:03
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Most Americans aren't aware of how the world is either. So, I am not sorry (why should I?).
Never saw one of these maps? LOL
 
 
 
Thank you Pinguin for posting those maps, they are really hilarious. Very good.


Edited by Carcharodon - 27 Aug 2009 at 02:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:21
Thanks Pinguin these pictures are awsomeLOL

Edited by Easternbul - 27 Aug 2009 at 13:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 17:24
"Those movements are motivated simply by economical reasons and nothing else."

Very true. These movements aren't any "reconquista" of their "land," (many are not full Native blood, and none of them actually lived on the land in question, so their claim goes out the window). As a hard working, average American, you feel bad for these people up until the point that they illegally entered a country without any sort of attempt at becoming citizens of it. They cost Americans billions of dollars a year and don't contribute. Note to foreign readers, illegal immigration DOES NOT EQUAL legal immigration. Too many times non-Americans look to this debate as being between anti-immigrant racists and everybody else. It's not. Legal immigration is great for our economy, because these people pay income income taxes and at least pay for the care that they receive. Also, I was unaware of other sorts of movements elsewhere in the Americas, which I'm glad you brought up.

As for your maps, just plain hilarious. I love the Reagan one the best.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 08:57
One shall not forget that some parts of what is now the USA were Mexican much later then 500 years ago as for example California and Mexico. One shall also not forget that some Native Americans fled over to Mexico to avoid persecution from USA. So some of these peoples descendants really ought to have the right to come to the USA their ancestors were driven out from.
But it is of course better they are given legal status then being forced to do it illegally.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 14:41
I don't find the difference between legal or illegal immigration.
After all every single European and European descendent is in the Americas illegally.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 21:24
Those mapsLOL, well doneClap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 00:17
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I don't find the difference between legal or illegal immigration.
After all every single European and European descendent is in the Americas illegally.

All things considered every person living in the Americas is here through some sort of immigration process. The natives didn't appear out of thin air either. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 00:42
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One shall not forget that some parts of what is now the USA were Mexican much later then 500 years ago as for example California and Mexico. One shall also not forget that some Native Americans fled over to Mexico to avoid persecution from USA. So some of these peoples descendants really ought to have the right to come to the USA their ancestors were driven out from.
But it is of course better they are given legal status then being forced to do it illegally.
 
Only someone totally ignorant of Texas history would take the time to post such drivel. Now as for this cross-border flight, Carch, perhaps you should take time to read a certain clause in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo...if your sensibilities can get past its opening affirmation: In the name of  Almighty God...
 
If you do then read on:
 
Article XI:
Considering that a great part of the territories, which, by the present treaty, are to be comprehended for the future within the limits of the United States, is now occupied by savage tribes, who will hereafter be under the exclusive control of the Government of the United States, and whose incursions within the territory of Mexico would be prejudicial in the extreme, it is solemnly agreed that all such incursions shall be forcibly restrained by the Government of the United States whensoever this may be necessary; and that when they cannot be prevented, they shall be punished by the said Government, and satisfaction for the same shall be exacted all in the same way, and with equal diligence and energy, as if the same incursions were meditated or committed within its own territory, against its own citizens.

It shall not be lawful, under any pretext whatever, for any inhabitant of the United States to purchase or acquire any Mexican, or any foreigner residing in Mexico, who may have been captured by Indians inhabiting the territory of either of the two republics; nor to purchase or acquire horses, mules, cattle, or property of any kind, stolen within Mexican territory by such Indians.

And in the event of any person or persons, captured within Mexican territory by Indians, being carried into the territory of the United States, the Government of the latter engages and binds itself, in the most solemn manner, so soon as it shall know of such captives being within its territory, and shall be able so to do, through the faithful exercise of its influence and power, to rescue them and return them to their country, or deliver them to the agent or representative of the Mexican Government. The Mexican authorities will, as far as practicable, give to the Government of the United States notice of such captures; and its agents shall pay the expenses incurred in the maintenance and transmission of the rescued captives; who, in the mean time, shall be treated with the utmost hospitality by the American authorities at the place where they may be. But if the Government of the United States, before receiving such notice from Mexico, should obtain intelligence, through any other channel, of the existence of Mexican captives within its territory, it will proceed forthwith to effect their release and delivery to the Mexican agent, as above stipulated.

For the purpose of giving to these stipulations the fullest possible efficacy, thereby affording the security and redress demanded by their true spirit and intent, the Government of the United States will now and hereafter pass, without unnecessary delay, and always vigilantly enforce, such laws as the nature of the subject may require. And, finally, the sacredness of this obligation shall never be lost sight of by the said Government, when providing for the removal of the Indians from any portion of the said territories, or for its being settled by citizens of the United States; but, on the contrary, special care shall then be taken not to place its Indian occupants under the necessity of seeking new homes, by committing those invasions which the United States have solemnly obliged themselves to restrain.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 01:58
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

...All things considered every person living in the Americas is here through some sort of immigration process. The natives didn't appear out of thin air either. 
 
Chinese didn't appear in China, either. Confused
 
In any case, Natives arrived FIRST. Ten of thousand of years before the ones that arrived second.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 12:45
drgonzaga
 
The long excerpt you posted is rather irrelevant to the things I talked about. I talked about indians who fled from US army into Mexico, other times they fled from Mexico into US territory. They lived in states that changed from Mexican to US supremacy but they still belonged there on both sides of the borders. Some treaties written by their supressors do not alter that fact.
You are just laying smoke screens to obsure this matter.
 
If some of the descendants of these natives today live on the Mexican side of the border they should have all right to move into the US, to places that were a part of their old homeland.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 13:37
Carch thy name is Obscurantism Redux as thou hauntest the parapets of Elsinore. For one thing, you are totally uninformed as to the habits of residents within the border zone between Mexico and the United States. They cross freely at all times between countries and have done so for generations...the border-leapers originate elsewhere. Hence your howls and chain-clanking intimidate no one. Simply put, you are totally ignorant as to the actual conditions "on-the-ground" and go off into irrelevant tangents that simply underscore how unfamiliar you really are with the topic.  
 
Besides, as the Pinguin is so fond of iterating: Meddler go home! Better yet, arrange for the immediate issuance of Swedish visas so as to "rescue" these purported examples of border transhumancy. As for the smoke...you have belched more of the the stuff than Huitzilipochtli!
 
Pick up a book on the sociology of border areas so as to realize that on this subject you do not know diddly! Pretty soon we will be awash with all the gobble-gobble over the purported "Mexican Reconquista". I could get absolutely wonky with you and utter the name Jorge A. Bustamante, but then you've already intimated you do not wish to hear from any of the "suppressors".
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 16:17
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Carch thy name is Obscurantism Redux as thou hauntest the parapets of Elsinore. For one thing, you are totally uninformed as to the habits of residents within the border zone between Mexico and the United States. They cross freely at all times between countries and have done so for generations...the border-leapers originate elsewhere. Hence your howls and chain-clanking intimidate no one. Simply put, you are totally ignorant as to the actual conditions "on-the-ground" and go off into irrelevant tangents that simply underscore how unfamiliar you really are with the topic.  
 
Besides, as the Pinguin is so fond of iterating: Meddler go home! Better yet, arrange for the immediate issuance of Swedish visas so as to "rescue" these purported examples of border transhumancy. As for the smoke...you have belched more of the the stuff than Huitzilipochtli!
 
Pick up a book on the sociology of border areas so as to realize that on this subject you do not know diddly! Pretty soon we will be awash with all the gobble-gobble over the purported "Mexican Reconquista". I could get absolutely wonky with you and utter the name Jorge A. Bustamante, but then you've already intimated you do not wish to hear from any of the "suppressors".
 
 
 
Does all the above mentioned mean that you for sure know that noone who crosses the border in a so called illegal way could be a descendant from those native Americans who in past times where chased by army troops from both Mexico and the US back and forth over the border? Do you know absolutely for sure that noone of todays immigrants ever had ancestors who where native Americans that once could have lived in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona or California?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 21:54
Guess I'll have to speak with a representative of the Tohono-O'odham Nation, whose people do straddle the border between the United States and Mexico and for which the "illegals" do constitute a critical problem as the coyotes constantly violate their lands.
 
 
It is obvious that you do not even grasp the ethnic composition of US Border Patrol agents in this part of the world nor have any idea of the various Amerind nations common to both the US and Mexico. In fact, I would bet that you are ignorant of the long literature on this subject including the classic A Campaign in the Sierra Madre, 1885-1886, a narrative by Lieutenant Marion P. Maus, First Infantry, U.S. Army,with illustrations by Frederic Remington.
 
What is worse, despite your tedious exposition on "indigenous tribes" elsewhere, is the fact that we are not speaking of any type of Amerind when discussing this social problem. Instead, we are speaking of the urban poor or worse, the criminal element, from very modern settings who in many ways would feel insulted if you called them "indios"!  
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 29 Aug 2009 at 21:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 23:48

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Guess I'll have to speak with a representative of the Tohono-O'odham Nation, whose people do straddle the border between the United States and Mexico and for which the "illegals" do constitute a critical problem as the coyotes constantly violate their lands.

 

http://www.desertinvasion.us/invasion_pictures/invasion_tohono.html

 

 

I do not talk about the urban elements. I just talk about those descendants of native that live in what is now Mexico but once time also lived in the places that today is US. Maybe some of them want to move to places in the states their ancestors one time lived in. All descendants do not live at the border right now, some live also further south in Mexico. There were, and is, not only one group of natives that once lived in what is now California, Arizona, New Mexico or Texas.

 

But maybe the US citizens is just so paranoid that they think all people coming from Mexico are thieves and crooks directly from the slum.

 

And shall one see things from an Native American perspective than all non indian Americans are illegal immigrants (even if many of them, as the black slaves, did not come voluntarily).

 

- -  -

 

And for the matter of refugees, still Sweden takes more refugees, counted in percent, than the big and mighty US.



Edited by Carcharodon - 29 Aug 2009 at 23:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2009 at 05:26
And Swedes probably have more cavities than Americans, counted in percent that is...but what you are conveniently forgetting is that your "darling" immigrants still have to do their paperwork and are not swimming it to Malmo! If you are as good on the subject of Chichimecas as you are over Tupians, believe me I will be prepared for the promised boredom. Go watch a John Wayne flick and learn something!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2009 at 08:49
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

... 
What is worse, despite your tedious exposition on "indigenous tribes" elsewhere, is the fact that we are not speaking of any type of Amerind when discussing this social problem. Instead, we are speaking of the urban poor or worse, the criminal element, from very modern settings who in many ways would feel insulted if you called them "indios"!  
 
 
Absolutely agree.
The problem with the immigration from Mexico to the U.S. has not much to do with Indians, no matter it is true that Indigenous people all over the history moved back and forth from today's territories of the United States and Mexico. By large, most immigrants aren't Indigenous people at all.
 
The problem is not with Mexicans either. A Mexican that flight to the U.S. to complete its studies or doing business won't have problems at all, mostly. Even more, a million of Americans live in Mexico Confused...
 
The problem here is with the poors of Mexico, Mexico is a country that, like Brazil and Colombia and in less degree other Latin Americans nations, have a great social divide between the poor masses and the rich. Only recently in the region a middle class is surging, but still there is a great debt with a poor uneducated segment of the population that is looking for better opportunities.
Criminality is also a factor, but that shouldn't be the major concern. After all, those immigrants comming to the U.S. from other regions, like Eastern Europe, Middle East, Africa or Asia comes from countries with even more criminality than Mexico, and the largest majority of poor Mexicans are hard working and decent people.
 
Different is the concern with the mafias across borders. That's a major concern, not only of the United States, but of all the countries of the Western Hemisphere. The traffic of drugs in one direction, money and guns in the other, are producing a lot of problems and challenge the stability of the region, and has to be stopped. Absolutelly. Just remember how the FARC guerrillas attacked from Ecuador, to realize this is a global problem of the New World.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 30 Aug 2009 at 08:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2009 at 10:46
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

And Swedes probably have more cavities than Americans, counted in percent that is...but what you are conveniently forgetting is that your "darling" immigrants still have to do their paperwork and are not swimming it to Malmo! If you are as good on the subject of Chichimecas as you are over Tupians, believe me I will be prepared for the promised boredom. Go watch a John Wayne flick and learn something!
 
Sweden has also people who come into this country illegally. But they, when discovered, has the right to get their matter tried in court, in order to decide if they can stay or not.
 
If you think all of the natives in the Amazon are tupians or all of the natives in Mexico are Chichimecas than you for sure has no grasp of the diveristy of native peoples and languages.


Edited by Carcharodon - 30 Aug 2009 at 10:50
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