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The Shang were Indo-European?

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    Posted: 06 May 2014 at 16:13
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Shang has always been recognized by the Chinese as ancestral but cruel and barbarous — a step on the way to real civilization. The succeeding Chou civilization has always been the Chinese ideal. Finding IE influences in Shang would not really damage the Chinese origin legend much at all.

Based on this statement it seems this belief actually exists amongst some people.  I wonder how they got this idea.  Even if they refer to Victor Mair's proposals on IE influences to Chinese culture I don't think he means to put labels on the Shang demographic, but rather the Zhou demographic which were in the northwest and next door to the field of action involving trade with the the Tarim mummies demographic.


Edited by literaryClarity - 06 May 2014 at 16:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2014 at 08:13
The Shang were Indo-European?
It certainly appears so.
 
It seems that China didn't gain much from the Out of Africa Coastal Migration, but rather the original Chinese came through the European/Indo/Turkic route, to the Tarim Basin region, and eventually to the south.
 
That could be a possible explanation for:-
 
a) The incidence of yDNA Hpg D , albeit in small numbers, in Tibet and Mongolia; and
b) The Cuman people, who lived near the big bend in the Yellow River in China, who were a fair haired, pale skinned blue or green eyed people.
 
Which is the oldest Chinese group, was it Xiongnu?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2014 at 16:36
Wow you just totally ignored what I said about the position of the Tarim Mummies, whom were purported to have been found with exclusively Indo-European identifying artifacts, and went off on your own campaign about Cumans again.  Do you find Chinese writing materials where Cumans were originally from?  And why is Out of Africa Migration being brought into this again?  The point is not whether Shang was within earshot of their African ancestors but whether Indo-Europeans have anything to do with them.


Edited by literaryClarity - 07 May 2014 at 16:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 03:39
LC:
1) Could you supply a reference about the Tarim Basin Mummies?
 
2)In the development of the Chinese people, imo, the Cumans must be explained as the Uighers have been-obviously the Cuman were European and they could provide more evidence as to the origins of the Chinese;
 
3)I only mentined the OoACM as being another route by which the early Chinese arrived, could they have travelled so far by coast before going inland, to the north and thereby through Europa and India?
 
This is a discussion forum after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 05:33
Yes a discussion.  That's why my post set the beginning tone.  You went off talking about Cumans and Out of Africa when these concepts don't relate to the relevant facets of discussion.  I've seen you parallel such behavior in my other topic about civilization in China when you arbitrarily decided to use the word settlement which completely undermines objectives relating purely to the establishing of civilization. 

Linguist Victor Mair's proposal about original millet farmers settled as your proposed Indo-Europeans and may have partially fashioned the proto Zhou's pre dynastic elements.  You can find his writings in the Sino-Platonic papers he's been the editor of.

The linguist Laurent Sagart is at complete odds with Victor Mair however since he thinks the Yellow River was home to STAN linguistics meaning early Tibeto-Burman and Austronesian were inseparable.  They farmed millet as an ecologically independant food source which developed on the Yellow River but which got carried elsewhere as time passed.  Therefore I think at the best the compromise between these two divergent theories has to do with the area of the Zhou whom were as linguists Nishida and DeLancey put it Tibeto-Burman speakers with agglutinated SOV word order speech.  That itself would be closely tied with a northwestern Altaic phenomenon known as the Seima-Turbino expansion which was argued to have brought bronze technology into China.

Shang was SVO word ordering and the only viable source for their predominantly rice agriculture would have origins along the Yangtze which was ecologically independant for their harvesting of rice Japonica.  In speaking of the Shang their bronzes were mostly located outside of predynastic Zhou domains and their precursors were black pottery found along the eastern Chinese coast.  You can read the paper "On differentiating two different archaeological cultures on the northern China frontier" which discusses the separation of Rong and Di from Hu and Xiongnu.  Their bronzes were non Chinese and only in finds marked "peculiar" do we find some resemblances to Shang culture.

Victor Mair reference about Tarim Mummies:




Edited by literaryClarity - 08 May 2014 at 05:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 05:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 05:39
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Moon


People tell me that humor is the dignified way of losing an argument.  Is this true?


Edited by literaryClarity - 08 May 2014 at 05:40
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Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Moon


People tell me that humor is the dignified way of losing an argument.  Is this true?
 
Not really, we obviously look at the OP through different eyes.
 
I'm not prepared to get into an argument over it.
 
The emoticon is my way of saying just that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 15:34
Oh the cleverness of you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 16:11
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Oh the cleverness of you.
 
In the OP, you refer to Victor Mair, the acclaimed Sinologist.
 
You claim that he didn't really mean to refer to the Shang but the Zhou.
 
Was the quote in the OP about the Shang from Mair, can you elaborate please?
 
The Tarim Basin mummies probably were IE, as claimed by Victor Mair, and linked to the Tocharians.
 
The reason that I mentioned the Cuman people, was because among the Tarim mummies, there were Europoid skeleton with blonde hair, and examination found yDNA R1a, a European haplogroup.
 
Whether or not these people, or any of them, could have been Cuman, Turkic or Caucasian is yet to be proved.


Edited by toyomotor - 09 May 2014 at 16:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 16:48
The quote in the OP was by a poster on another forum piecing together Victor Mair's findings.  This is the complete quote:

Quote
Victor Mair has been working on the IE influences on Early China for some time. As I piece it together, there was major early contact with the Tokharians and later contact with the various Iranian peoples. Certainly elite contact, but possibly also more extensive interchange.  
 
There was an apparent break at about the middle of the Shang dynasty during the reign of Pán G?ng. (The later period was sometimes called Yin Shang. Dates are uncertain but the Yin era began around 1300. This would be a candidate for the entry of IE influence in force. (KC Chang, “Shang Civilization”, read some time ago. I don’t think Chang mentions the IE theory). 
 
Shang has always been recognized by the Chinese as ancestral but cruel and barbarous — a step on the way to real civilization. The succeeding Chou civilization has always been the Chinese ideal. Finding IE influences in Shang would not really damage the Chinese origin legend much at all. 
 
There is also a pretty good argument that Shang and earlier proto-Chinese were in some kind of cultural contact with Pacific coastal peoples of the Americas. At the moment I cannot find good documentation of this on the internet, since the internet is flooded with speculative amateur stuff.  
 
Both theories would make the Shang into proto-Chinese or pre-Chinese, which is not really much different than they’ve always been thought to be.


The idea advocated was that IE demographics were viewed upon as barbarians (but more in the sense of a romantic barbarian such as Conan the Barbarian).  Therefore the bizarre presumption is that when the Shang were historically viewed as "barbarous" by the subsequent Zhou dynasty that it was the result of viewing the IE's influence.  However that is a deluded concept.  Even Victor Mair was only speaking of the Tarim Basin mummies whose influence was localized to the Tarim Basin.

The poster should have suggested the opposite which is more historically viable.  The beginning of western Zhou marks the turbulent beginning for China as it triggered feudalism and the subsequent warring states period during the eastern Zhou.  There is no basis for thinking that the hundred schools of thought during this period was anything other than a last resort remedy to evade sociopolitical disaster visited upon the Chinese by their western neighbors, whose connection with IE was highly likely though not necessarily recorded since they had no writing in the western parts of China.


Edited by literaryClarity - 09 May 2014 at 16:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 16:48
Oh by the way I really was paying a compliment.  I would have done the same if I were to lose an argument while trying to salvage some pride.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 17:12
According to the traditional chronology based upon calculations made approximately 2,000 years ago by Liu Xin, the Shang ruled from 1766 BC to 1122 BC.
 
I would have thought that any "Proto Chinese" would have been earlier than than, and that these earlier people were in fact the Indo Europeans that you mentioned. 
 
I have based my thoughts, to some degree on the following:
Newly Released Study Traces Arrival of First Chinese
September 29, 1998

WASHINGTON — Genetic studies that show the first modern human arrived in China about 60,000 years ago support the theory that people first evolved in Africa, researchers say.

In a study published Tuesday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, scientists say that an analysis of genetic samples from throughout Asia suggests that people there sprang from common ancestors, the modern humans who appeared first in Africa and then spread throughout the world.

"Our work shows that modern humans first came to southeast Asia and then moved later to northern China," said Li Jin, a population geneticist at the University of Texas in Houston. "This supports the idea that modern humans originated in Africa."

Jin said the study is based on analysis of the gene patterns from 43 different ethnic groups in China and Asia. He said the technique gives an indication of how people moved and mixed over thousands of generations.

Migration clues are carried in genetic patterns, called microsatellites, that change rapidly over time. By analyzing these changes and linking them to earlier genetic patterns, researchers are able to plot the migration of ancient humans.

Based on the research, Jin said it appears that modern humans first moved from central Asia, following the Indian Ocean coastline across India, to southeast Asia. Later, they moved to south China. Descendants of these original Chinese then migrated north and northwest, populating northern China, Siberia and eventually the Americas.

"This is important research because it supports the out-of-Africa theory about the origin of modern humans," said Ranjan Deka, a population genetics researcher at the University of Cincinnati.

Deka said the results of the study weaken an alternative theory that modern humans arose independently on different continents at about the same time. If this were true, he said, there would be little or no genetic continuity among the various populations of the world.

Instead, said Deka, the findings by Jin and his colleagues show genetic continuity in China, even though that vast country has dozens of different ethnic populations and more than 200 different languages.

Jin said he believes modern human migration into Asia was probably affected by glaciers that invaded much of the Northern Hemisphere during an ice age that lasted thousands of years.

It may have been only after the glaciers retreated, more than 15,000 years ago, that modern humans were able to migrate to far northern Asia and across the Bering Strait to the Americas.

You may also note  ghat this report places the original Chinese as Africans who joined the Out of Africa Coastal Migration, but diverted north, through India and eventually to China, etc.
 
This tends to make me believe that the "Proto-Chinese" and their ancestors were indeed Indo/European.
 
As for you last comment-I haven't lost yet, was just taking a strategic break.Big smile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 18:14
Where in your study does it say the proto Chinese were speakers of IE?  That Chinese wrote IE?  It actually says they were like everyone else whom migrated out of Africa if you want to play the race card but since we are talking about the Shang what does out of Africa migrations have to do with the Shang?  I consider it academically dishonest for you to try abusing a source by distorting the claims of its actual findings.  I suggest you take all the strategic breaks you need because the earlier point made in the OP isn't going anywhere soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 18:16
Thanks for the heads up on how to lose graciously btw.  It really must salvage a lot of pride to take strategic breaks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 03:29
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Thanks for the heads up on how to lose graciously btw.  It really must salvage a lot of pride to take strategic breaks.
 
 
As I said, it's my belief that, having migrated through India and parts of Europe, they could have been, or become IE.
 
I didn't say they spoke IE or wrote it. They may still have spoken an African dialect for all I know.
 
And of course there is still the matter of the "Black Chinese".
 
 Ever heard the saying, "Sarcasm is the wit of fools"?


Edited by toyomotor - 10 May 2014 at 03:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 03:52
http://www.ancient.eu.com/china/
The above reference may help you understand.
 
Also, the name China comes from the Sanskrit, Cina. Sanskrit is an Indian Language.
 
You may also not that Chinese script, and Sanskrit are not dissimilar.
 
Perhaps it may have been better to describe the Shang as Proto Chinese, I don't know.


Edited by toyomotor - 10 May 2014 at 03:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 04:06
So alright I still don't get what you are trying to say.  Are you saying the IE which came to China are the people who brought Sanskrit to China so that the Chinese called themselves Cina or that they are the Cumans?  Because Victor Mair doesn't discuss any of that in the reference.  Please dignify us with your awesome knowledge about it.  Clap


Edited by literaryClarity - 10 May 2014 at 04:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 04:17
Btw nice timing on that sarcasm quote.  Fits perfectly with your out of Africa migration theory to boost your ego about how China's civilization was not homegrown.  We owe you one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 04:59
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

  Fits perfectly with your out of Africa migration theory to boost your ego about how China's civilization was not homegrown. 
 
How does having a theory, shared by scientists, boost my ego? It doesn't!
 
Are you suggesting that the Chinese people originated  in China?
 
Boy, are you out of step with reality!
 
This is my last comment on this thread, so don't waste your time by making comments to me personally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 18:51
Huh?  Is that even a question?  The reason why a people can be called Chinese is obviously due to their association with Chinese spoken language, writings, and other offerings of their civilization which were all originated at home in China, hence the terminology homegrown.  Do you call the colonialist immigrants whom lived in Hong Kong during its occupation the English or the Chinese people?  Please answer just one of my questions.

Oh never mind you decided to run away as always.


Edited by literaryClarity - 10 May 2014 at 18:53
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"Shang has always been recognized by the Chinese as ancestral but cruel and barbarous — a step on the way to real civilization. The succeeding Chou civilization has always been the Chinese ideal. Finding IE influences in Shang would not really damage the Chinese origin legend much at all."

Who actually wrote that?
 
The Ancient Chinese, like their European counterparts, were very cruel and inhuman by modern standards. Human life was virtually worthless. So what point are you trying to make?
 
If the Shang were proven to be of Indo European origins, so what?
 
And, what is the Chinese Origin legend? That they were homegrown-always originating in China?
 
And, btw, If by your vitriol towards me you are hoping to provoke a similar response, forget it!
 
I don't need to stoop that low.


Edited by toyomotor - 12 May 2014 at 03:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 23:44
Evidently the Out of Africa/Indo-European/Bering Strait etc. theorists did not manage a "so what" when the Chinese spared no expense to their great archaeological efforts to discover where Shang actually arose out of.  Now that Liangzhu's remains are being excavated it becomes clearer that both were the Sinitic and connected intricately.  Neither were IE or anything others claimed.  A lot of erroneous theorizing usually amounts to nothing.  For example, some of the "Cuman" evidence in this short paper shows us that no matter how advanced they were that they would not be considered Chinese.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Chinese+Northern+frontier%3a+reassessment+of+the+Bronze+Age+burial...-a018838195
Quote
Conclusion

Examination of the Baifu tombs reveals a complex burial system, fundamentally inconsistent with the Chinese tradition, which aligns with non-Chinese sites in the Northern Zone. Basic structure of the graves at Baifu, the material content, and their organization is replicated in fragmentary form at regional sites, confirming the existence of a Northern culture. The culture is by no means homogeneous in population or in custom, but is recognizably distinct from the core culture of dynastic China.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 04:38
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Evidently the Out of Africa/Indo-European/Bering Strait etc. theorists did not manage a "so what" when the Chinese spared no expense to their great archaeological efforts to discover where Shang actually arose out of.  Now that Liangzhu's remains are being excavated it becomes clearer that both were the Sinitic and connected intricately.  Neither were IE or anything others claimed.  A lot of erroneous theorizing usually amounts to nothing.  For example, some of the "Cuman" evidence in this short paper shows us that no matter how advanced they were that they would not be considered Chinese.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Chinese+Northern+frontier%3a+reassessment+of+the+Bronze+Age+burial...-a018838195
Quote
Conclusion

Examination of the Baifu tombs reveals a complex burial system, fundamentally inconsistent with the Chinese tradition, which aligns with non-Chinese sites in the Northern Zone. Basic structure of the graves at Baifu, the material content, and their organization is replicated in fragmentary form at regional sites, confirming the existence of a Northern culture. The culture is by no means homogeneous in population or in custom, but is recognizably distinct from the core culture of dynastic China.

OK, so the Shang may not have been IE, but they must have had either IE or Austronesian ancestry.
 
What of their ancestors, the Xia? And who were the Xia's ancestors?
 
The Shang just didn't spring up in China like daisies, the had genetic origins. What were they?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 05:16
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Wow you just totally ignored what I said about the position of the Tarim Mummies, whom were purported to have been found with exclusively Indo-European identifying artifacts, and went off on your own campaign about Cumans again.  Do you find Chinese writing materials where Cumans were originally from?  And why is Out of Africa Migration being brought into this again?  The point is not whether Shang was within earshot of their African ancestors but whether Indo-Europeans have anything to do with them.
 
I have a particular interest in the peoples of the Pontic/Caspian Steppe, and their near neighbours.
 
The Cumans came from near the big bend in the Yellow River.
 
The Shang came from near the big bend in the Yellow River.
 
The Cumans were decidedly Caucasian, the Shang were Asian.
 
My supposition is that they or their ancestors must have come into contact with each other.
 
And I can't find out much about the Cumans. they just seem to have appeared in in Northern China, and then later dissolved into the eastern European community.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 06:46
Maybe if you learn to read you wouldn't continue your redundant questions:

Quote
Conclusion

Examination of the Baifu tombs reveals a complex burial system, fundamentally inconsistent with the Chinese tradition, which aligns with non-Chinese sites in the Northern Zone.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 08:33
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Maybe if you learn to read you wouldn't continue your redundant questions:

Quote
Conclusion

Examination of the Baifu tombs reveals a complex burial system, fundamentally inconsistent with the Chinese tradition, which aligns with non-Chinese sites in the Northern Zone.

 
You are too kind.
 
Quote
The culture is by no means homogeneous in population or in custom, but is recognizably distinct from the core culture of dynastic China.


Edited by toyomotor - 13 May 2014 at 08:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 20:25
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The culture is by no means homogeneous in population or in custom, but is recognizably distinct from the core culture of dynastic China.

My condolences to your out of Africanoid/Cumanoid/Siberoid/Bering Straitoid/Amerindianoid/Austronesianoid theory of where Chinese civilization came from.

Edited by literaryClarity - 13 May 2014 at 20:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2014 at 02:35
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

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The culture is by no means homogeneous in population or in custom, but is recognizably distinct from the core culture of dynastic China.

My condolences to your out of Africanoid/Cumanoid/Siberoid/Bering Straitoid/Amerindianoid/Austronesianoid theory of where Chinese civilization came from.
 
Again you misrepresent what I wrote.
 
But we weren't talking about the civilisation of China, which obviously developed in China, we were talking about your question of whether or not the Shang people were IE.
 
I doubt it, but they would have had IE ancestry or Austronesian ancestry. The original Chinese had to reach China somehow, they didn't parachute in!
 
My supposition is that they either arrived by the Coastal Migration, which could give them Austronesian genetic ancestry or if they came through Europe, they could have European genetic ancestry.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2014 at 04:24
Tell me where I misinterpreted.

First you mentioned "out of Africa" for the peopling of China some tens of thousands of years ago.  The idea was sound except you used it to imply that all people other than Cumans were basically Black African.  Hence your mysterious term, Black Chinese.  And you noted that they would remain black until the introduction of IE via Cumans whom you said were pale skinned with blue or green eyes.

Second, you dictated Chinese civilization wasn't homegrown because they took influence from both of them but then you decided to shift focus.  You took the Bering Strait as reference to Chinese going north into the Americas and granted them some thousands of years of selection before settling the Americas so your idea was that the Amerindians would have been the original Chinese.

Other points you've mentioned included how Austronesian genetics were imparted into the mix due to coastal migration.  You also introduced the D haplogroup at low detectable percentages somehow coming into play for IE dispersals in China.

As far as I'm concerned none of this relates to the discussion of Shang!  Your reference dates are all skewed thousands of years apart from Shang!  Even a troll worth his salt would have introduced time tables that were coeval with the Shang!

I've already mentioned Victor Mair and it appears he's only talking about the northwestern Zhou whose non Chinese influences are plenty acknowledged even by Chinese scholars.  The paper analyzing the Baifu remains clearly shows the distinction between separation of cultures peripheral to the core dynastic Chinese.  If the north was non Chinese at the point when the first Chinese dynasty arose in east China why are you still contemplating that your IE theory is the correct one?

Not to mention the Liangzhu were the direct predecessors to the Shang whose territorial dominance also lay in the east.  In Li Liu's book, "The Chinese Neolithic: Trajectories to Early States", archaeologists determined the chronological path to early Chinese civilization had necessarily to do with the manufacture of Shang bronzes.  They discovered this through first hypothesizing that the homegrown civilization of China would have started in the east apart from any potential influences west.  The way they formed their hypothesis was rather unscientific but ultimately their hypothesis was correct.

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The cultural disconnection between Yangshao and Anyang urged archaeologists to search for a direct progenitor of the Shang, and the general consensus among archaeologists and historians was that the most likely area was in eastern China. After work at Anyang was halted around 1930 due to war, the excavation team later moved its operations to Chengziyai in Longshan township, Shandong, after Wu Jinding’s preliminary surveys had revealed promising discoveries there (Fu 1934;Li Chi 1934).

The excavations at Chengziyai were more fruitful than the excavators had expected. Distinctive from the Yangshao painted pottery, the black pottery from Chengziyai was similar to the Neolithic remains found at Hougang in Anyang, which were directly superpositioned by the Shang cultural remains. Uninscribed oracle bones found at Chengziyai provided an even more direct link between the Longshan and Shang, since it was the inscribed oracle bones which ultimately distinguished ancient Chinese culture from other parts of the world. The Longshan culture of black pottery in the east (representing indigenous Chinese culture) was thus viewed as a system independent from the Yangshao culture of painted pottery in the west (thought to be foreign diffusion). It became hopeful that “if we can trace back the distribution and development of the black pottery culture represented by Chengziyai, most problems in the formative  period of Chinese history would be resolved.


Obviously the black pottery spoken of was none other than the black pottery of the eastern Longshan and whose culture is directly traceable to the Liangzhu.



Excavated black pottery items from the Liangzhu site



Excavated bronze wine cups from Shang sites.  Notice the single "mug handle" the three legs, the oversized spout evoking bird like mouth.

The directionality of the Shang is clear.  They were native and homegrown, Sinitic, civilized, wore jade on silk robes, had writing, and utilized administrative palatial constructs as had the Liangzhu.

Edited by literaryClarity - 14 May 2014 at 05:17
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