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The Shang were Indo-European?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2014 at 17:23
I am deeply sorry.
I was of the belief that I was discussing the Shang people with someone of average intellect.
You keep twisting what I've written, as a justification for your vitriol.
Well, I won't play those games any more.
I did not say that the Chinese were black Africans until the arrival of the Cumans. I did mention that somewhere in antiquity, someone referred to Black Chinese-no more.
You need to do some research on the Chinese and their near neighbours.
The rest of your last post is not even worth responding to, you obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, or for that matter, what you're talking about.
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literaryClarity View Drop Down

Joined: 03 May 2014
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2014 at 06:16
Except you weren't discussing the Shang.

Tell me where I misinterpreted.

First you mentioned "out of Africa" for the peopling of China some tens of thousands of years ago.  The idea was sound except you used it to imply that all people other than Cumans were basically Black African.  Hence your mysterious term, Black Chinese.  And you noted that they would remain black until the introduction of IE via Cumans whom you said were pale skinned with blue or green eyes.

Second, you dictated Chinese civilization wasn't homegrown because they took influence from both of them but then you decided to shift focus.  You took the Bering Strait as reference to Chinese going north into the Americas and granted them some thousands of years of selection before settling the Americas so your idea was that the Amerindians would have been the original Chinese.

Other points you've mentioned included how Austronesian genetics were imparted into the mix due to coastal migration.  You also introduced the D haplogroup at low detectable percentages somehow coming into play for IE dispersals in China.

As far as I'm concerned none of this relates to the discussion of Shang!  Your reference dates are all skewed thousands of years apart from Shang!  Even a troll worth his salt would have introduced time tables that were coeval with the Shang!

I've already mentioned Victor Mair and it appears he's only talking about the northwestern Zhou whose non Chinese influences are plenty acknowledged even by Chinese scholars.  The paper analyzing the Baifu remains clearly shows the distinction between separation of cultures peripheral to the core dynastic Chinese.  If the north was non Chinese at the point when the first Chinese dynasty arose in east China why are you still contemplating that your IE theory is the correct one?

Not to mention the Liangzhu were the direct predecessors to the Shang whose territorial dominance also lay in the east.  In Li Liu's book, "The Chinese Neolithic: Trajectories to Early States", archaeologists determined the chronological path to early Chinese civilization had necessarily to do with the manufacture of Shang bronzes.  They discovered this through first hypothesizing that the homegrown civilization of China would have started in the east apart from any potential influences west.  The way they formed their hypothesis was rather unscientific but ultimately their hypothesis was correct.

The cultural disconnection between Yangshao and Anyang urged archaeologists to search for a direct progenitor of the Shang, and the general consensus among archaeologists and historians was that the most likely area was in eastern China. After work at Anyang was halted around 1930 due to war, the excavation team later moved its operations to Chengziyai in Longshan township, Shandong, after Wu Jinding’s preliminary surveys had revealed promising discoveries there (Fu 1934;Li Chi 1934).

The excavations at Chengziyai were more fruitful than the excavators had expected. Distinctive from the Yangshao painted pottery, the black pottery from Chengziyai was similar to the Neolithic remains found at Hougang in Anyang, which were directly superpositioned by the Shang cultural remains. Uninscribed oracle bones found at Chengziyai provided an even more direct link between the Longshan and Shang, since it was the inscribed oracle bones which ultimately distinguished ancient Chinese culture from other parts of the world. The Longshan culture of black pottery in the east (representing indigenous Chinese culture) was thus viewed as a system independent from the Yangshao culture of painted pottery in the west (thought to be foreign diffusion). It became hopeful that “if we can trace back the distribution and development of the black pottery culture represented by Chengziyai, most problems in the formative  period of Chinese history would be resolved.

Obviously the black pottery spoken of was none other than the black pottery of the eastern Longshan and whose culture is directly traceable to the Liangzhu.

Excavated black pottery items from the Liangzhu site

Excavated bronze wine cups from Shang sites.  Notice the single "mug handle" the three legs, the oversized spout evoking bird like mouth.

The directionality of the Shang is clear.  They were native and homegrown, Sinitic, civilized, wore jade on silk robes, had writing, and utilized administrative palatial constructs as had the Liangzhu.

Edited by literaryClarity - 15 May 2014 at 06:16
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