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"The soviet story"

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    Posted: 03 Jul 2009 at 20:49
I recently saw and highly recommend you a new documentary called "The soviet story". Here's the site,trailer and where you could download it if you are too poor to buy it :
 
Site :
 
 
Download torrent :
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 00:16
Hi Polak - I moved this thread to 'Modern Europe' rather than intellectual discussions.
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Thanks for sharing and informed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 02:47
This movie is a nice example of succesful propaganda. It mixes real events, facts, and footage with fake and unrelated footage and fake documents and invented "facts."
 
While some of the crimes of the Stalinist regime described in the movie indeed took place, some of the events never took place. The film also represents many events and statements out of context and makes unrealistic assumptions.
 
Perhaps, interesting to watch, but far from the accurate representation of history. I believe that film was even investigated in Finland for incitement of racial hatred or something like this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 11:23
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

This movie is a nice example of succesful propaganda. It mixes real events, facts, and footage with fake and unrelated footage and fake documents and invented "facts."
 
While some of the crimes of the Stalinist regime described in the movie indeed took place, some of the events never took place. The film also represents many events and statements out of context and makes unrealistic assumptions.
 
Perhaps, interesting to watch, but far from the accurate representation of history. I believe that film was even investigated in Finland for incitement of racial hatred or something like this.
 
Would you care to explain what exactly didn't take place? The genocide on ukrainians in 1933? The cooperation between Hitler and Stalin before 1941? The fact that Stalin first built death camps and Hitler learned from him? The quotes of Marx about how some nations in Europe do not deserve to exist? Those things were the most important and i've personally checked them all, so what did you find out to be false?
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The inventors of concentration camps were the British. It I am not wrong, they introduced the method in South Africa during the Boers war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 15:44
 
Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

Would you care to explain what exactly didn't take place?
 
Of course
 
Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

The genocide on ukrainians in 1933?
 
This is an example of the twisted interpretations of the real events. While the hunger in Ukraine did indeed took place and resulted in deaths of millions peasants. It definitely can't be classified as a "genocide of Ukrainians."
 
First of all, Stalin never said something like "we should take care of Ukrainians etc." Secondly, at the same time besides Ukraine millions of people died for the same reasons as in Ukraine in Southern Russia and Kazakhstan. Several ethnicities like Kazakhs and Bashkirs lost much more people than Ukrainians (persentage to their whole population wise). Millions of Russian peasants died of hunger. If it was a genocide it was a genocide of the Soviet peasant class.
The movie doesn't even discuss those facts. The whole think is just presented as a "Ukrainian genocide."
 
Finally, the movie puts terrible pictures from the famine of 1920th in the Volga region of Russia instead of real pictures of Ukrainian famine of 1930th. Why was that done?
 
Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

The cooperation between Hitler and Stalin before 1941?
 
Depending on what you're talking about. Of course, there was a cooperation. But some things that were presented in the movie, like secret agreement between NKVD and Gestapo are very famous and proved fakes.
 
Moreover, to the director put some unrelated footage in the movie. Like the meeting of the Vlasov's army (the army that was created by Nazis from the Soviet POWs that agreed to cooperate) that take place sometime in 1943-1944 with German soldiers as a example of "good relations" between Nazis and Soviets in 1939.
 
The movie also very skillfully uses the footages from the Nazi anti-Soviet propaganda movies like "red fog" while in fact many of those footages just were shot in film studios in Germany
 
And why the Soviet-German pact was presented out of nowhere without the description of the events that happened before the war including Munich pact and other examples of Western-Nazi cooperation?
 
Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

The fact that Stalin first built death camps and Hitler learned from him?
 
Yes, this just blatant lie. Hitler didn't "learn from Stalin" in this regard. And BTW Stalin built labor camps things like gas chambers and cramatoris (the features of the Nazi death camps) never existed in the USSR.
 
Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

 The quotes of Marx about how some nations in Europe do not deserve to exist?
 
Yes, the words of Marx were a little twisted as well. Why were they saying that Marx said Slavs didn't deserve to exist, while at the same time Marx differentiated between different Slavic ethnicities and for example believed that Poles is a revolutionary race that should that he regarded very highly.
 
Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

Those things were the most important and i've personally checked them all, so what did you find out to be false?
 
Besides that there are other blatant lies in the movie: like that Stalin ordered the execution of 12 years old kids and that there were medical experiments in Gulag.
 
While the crimes of Stalin's regime were disgusting. There is no need to substitute them with fakes, forgeries and twisted facts.
 
This movie has a clear propagandistic aim to alienate Russia from the West and for that reason those references to Putin and modern Russia as a quasi "succesor" of the Stalinist regime were made in the end of this "masterpiece."
 
 


Edited by Sarmat - 04 Jul 2009 at 15:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 15:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The inventors of concentration camps were the British. It I am not wrong, they introduced the method in South Africa during the Boers war.
 
Death camps, famine due to collectivisation and all other methods of mass murder aimed at destroying a certain group of people was first introduced in USSR during Lenin and later in all other socialit states, including nation-socialist Germany. Never before or after Ukraine 1933 did so many people die in such a short period of time (maybe only during Mao in China), so you can't compare the soviet death machine to the british colonial atrocities or any other acts of mass murder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 16:32
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 
This is an example of the twisted interpretations of the real events. While the hunger in Ukraine did indeed took place and resulted in deaths of millions peasants. It definitely can't be classified as a "genocide of Ukrainians."
 
First of all, Stalin never said something like "we should take care of Ukrainians etc." Secondly, at the same time besides Ukraine millions of people died for the same reasons as in Ukraine in Southern Russia and Kazakhstan. Several ethnicities like Kazakhs and Bashkirs lost much more people than Ukrainians (persentage to their whole population wise). Millions of Russian peasants died of hunger. If it was a genocide it was a genocide of the Soviet peasant class.
The movie doesn't even discuss those facts. The whole think is just presented as a "Ukrainian genocide."
 
The movie showed the genocide on ukrainians in 1932-1933 because it reached highest numbers of deaths in a very short period of time, not because no one else was dying at that time. It is clear that every nation in USSR was affected by the soviet regime and sufferd major losses and anyone can learn more about it from books and different studies. This film decided to show one example of mass murdered nation and chose the ukrainians for that. What's the problem with this? You don't like ukrainians? It is not a lie, because they never said "the ukrainians were the only ones who suffered at that time". Yes, considering what was happening in Ukraine it should be called "Ukrainian genocide". If they spoke about the genocide on bashkirs they would call it "Bashkir genocide". It is a matter of what you are talking about and not of misinterpretation or propaganda.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Finally, the movie puts terrible pictures from the famine of 1920th in the Volga region of Russia instead of real pictures of Ukrainian famine of 1930th. Why was that done?  
 
That was probably done because there aren't much pictures of the Ukraininan famine, but people dying of hunger look just the same. The purpous of those pictures is to help you imagine how the thing looked and because they looked just the same in 1920 it is again not a lie. If it was nothing like this in Ukraine it would be a falsification, if people were healthy and well fed, but they weren't. They looked just the same, so what's the problem then?
 
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Depending on what you're talking about. Of course, there was a cooperation. But some things that were presented in the movie, like secret agreement between NKVD and Gestapo are very famous and proved fakes.
 
Moreover, to the director put some unrelated footage in the movie. Like the meeting of the Vlasov's army (the army that was created by Nazis from the Soviet POWs that agreed to cooperate) that take place sometime in 1943-1944 with German soldiers as a example of "good relations" between Nazis and Soviets in 1939.
 
The movie also very skillfully uses the footages from the Nazi anti-Soviet propaganda movies like "red fog" while in fact many of those footages just were shot in film studios in Germany
 
And why the Soviet-German pact was presented out of nowhere without the description of the events that happened before the war including Munich pact and other examples of Western-Nazi cooperation?  
 
I am talking of the invasion of Poland, when they were not just cooperators, but rather allies. Are these photos also fake :
 
 
( i don't why i can't post more than one photo, because the second time i click "insert image" it just doesn't open???)
 
 
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Yes, this just blatant lie. Hitler didn't "learn from Stalin" in this regard. And BTW Stalin built labor camps things like gas chambers and cramatoris (the features of the Nazi death camps) never existed in the USSR.
 
Yes, there were no gas chambers and crematoris in the USSR, but still much more people died there than in the Third Reich, so how does it matter? The numbers show that communists are the biggest murderers of all time, so who cares if they used gas chambers to achieve this?
 
 
 
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Yes, the words of Marx were a little twisted as well. Why were they saying that Marx said Slavs didn't deserve to exist, while at the same time Marx differentiated between different Slavic ethnicities and for example believed that Poles is a revolutionary race that should that he regarded very highly.
 
No, they didn's say Marx said all Salvs don't deserve to exist, but other european nations such as the scottish people. Only the serbs were form the Slavic group.
 
 
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 
Besides that there are other blatant lies in the movie: like that Stalin ordered the execution of 12 years old kids and that there were medical experiments in Gulag.
 
While the crimes of Stalin's regime were disgusting. There is no need to substitute them with fakes, forgeries and twisted facts.
 
 
No, 12 years old kids were indeed murdered and even younger children too and there were indeed medical expirements in Gulag, as well as in North Korea and other communist states. Those are well known facts and you obviously haven't read enough.
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

  
This movie has a clear propagandistic aim to alienate Russia from the West and for that reason those references to Putin and modern Russia as a quasi "succesor" of the Stalinist regime were made in the end of this "masterpiece."
 
Than why is the soviet union and it's barbarous leaders still regarded as something good by the new russian governemnt and not condemdet like the nazi regime? Nazis and Hitler weren't any worse than soviets and Stalin but russian politicians still insist they were and aren't ashamed of the USSR as germans are ashamed of the Thir Reich and alienate from it. You won't see german soldiers marching with svastikas, but you can see this in todays Russia, even tough nazis didn't mass murder their own people, while soviets did mass murder russians :
 
 
 
Ofcourse Putin is trying to be a kind of succesor of the USSR when he's allowing parades like these.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 17:52

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

 

The movie showed the genocide on ukrainians in 1932-1933 because it reached highest numbers of deaths in a very short period of time, not because no one else was dying at that time.

 

 

Is it your own conclusion?  The movie presented it like it was a genocide specifcally aimed at Ukranians because Stalin didn't like the Ukrainians or something. It didn't say a word about that millions of Russian peasants were dying at the same time. If I am not familiar enough wih the Soviet history, I can make a conclusion that Stalin wanted to exterminate Ukrainians but that was not true. If you can apply the term "genocide" you can say that it was the genocide of the peasant class of the USSR, but not the genocide of the Ukrainian people.

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

 It is clear that every nation in USSR was affected by the soviet regime and sufferd major losses and anyone can learn more about it from books and different studies.

 

 

May be it's clear to you, but if one is not familiar enough with the Soviet history, I can make a clear conclusion based on the movie that Stalin conducted the genocide of the Ukrainian people. A general viewer will never do any research.

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

This film decided to show one example of mass murdered nation and chose the ukrainians for that. What's the problem with this?

 

 

 

The problem is that is was specifically presented as an “exclusively” Ukrainian genocide.

 

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

You don't like ukrainians?

 

 

I like Ukrainians very much

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

It is not a lie, because they never said "the ukrainians were the only ones who suffered at that time". Yes, considering what was happening in Ukraine it should be called "Ukrainian genocide". If they spoke about the genocide on bashkirs they would call it "Bashkir genocide". It is a matter of what you are talking about and not of misinterpretation or propaganda.

 

You don’t understand what genocide means. Genocide is a systematic, delibarate extermination of a limited group of people. Like Jewish genocide during WWII. Nazists deliberately were killing Jews and left other people intact at least for some time.

 

If in the USSR there was a deliberate policy of killing only Ukrainians, of letting only Ukrainians to die of hunger it would be a Ukrainian genocide. But the truth is that also Russians, Tatars, Germans, Kazakhs etc. were dying at the same time from the same artificially created hunger so it was not a Genocide of Ukrainian people  by definition.

 

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

 

That was probably done because there aren't much pictures of the Ukraininan famine, but people dying of hunger look just the same. The purpous of those pictures is to help you imagine how the thing looked and because they looked just the same in 1920 it is again not a lie.

Please don’t give your justifications for this falsification of evidence.

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

If it was nothing like this in Ukraine it would be a falsification, if people were healthy and well fed, but they weren't. They looked just the same, so what's the problem then?

 

It’s a falsification when you take a picture  in one place and presenting  it as it was taken in another place in a different time, unless of course you explain that you just use it in order to help you “to imagine” something. Nothing was explained in that movie.

 

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

 

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Depending on what you're talking about. Of course, there was a cooperation. But some things that were presented in the movie, like secret agreement between NKVD and Gestapo are very famous and proved fakes.

 

Moreover, to the director put some unrelated footage in the movie. Like the meeting of the Vlasov's army (the army that was created by Nazis from the Soviet POWs that agreed to cooperate) that take place sometime in 1943-1944 with German soldiers as a example of "good relations" between Nazis and Soviets in 1939.

 

The movie also very skillfully uses the footages from the Nazi anti-Soviet propaganda movies like "red fog" while in fact many of those footages just were shot in film studios in Germany

 

And why the Soviet-German pact was presented out of nowhere without the description of the events that happened before the war including Munich pact and other examples of Western-Nazi cooperation?  

 

I am talking of the invasion of Poland, when they were not just cooperators, but rather allies. Are these photos also fake :

 

 

( i don't why i can't post more than one photo, because the second time i click "insert image" it just doesn't open???)

 

This particular photo is not fake. And I clearly explain what I meant. I don’t deny Soviet-Nazi joint aggression against Poland.

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

 

Yes, there were no gas chambers and crematoris in the USSR, but still much more people died there than in the Third Reich, so how does it matter? The numbers show that communists are the biggest murderers of all time, so who cares if they used gas chambers to achieve this?

Much more people? There is no established statistics like this. There are just some disputed numbers. But you hardly can definitely prove that the USSR killed more people than the Nazi Germany

 

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 

Besides that there are other blatant lies in the movie: like that Stalin ordered the execution of 12 years old kids and that there were medical experiments in Gulag.

 

While the crimes of Stalin's regime were disgusting. There is no need to substitute them with fakes, forgeries and twisted facts.

 

 

No, 12 years old kids were indeed murdered and even younger children too and there were indeed medical expirements in Gulag, as well as in North Korea and other communist states. Those are well known facts and you obviously haven't read enough.

 

Known facts?  May be only you know that. I don’t know about North Korea. But if you know of such proofs, please kindly give me evidence or at least a link to some documented evidence about the authorization by Stalin of killing of 12 old criminals. Or medical experiments in Gulag, besides the unproved claims of Mr. Melnikoff. Such things simply don’t exist.

 

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

Than why is the soviet union and it's barbarous leaders still regarded as something good by the new russian governemnt and not condemdet like the nazi regime? Nazis and Hitler weren't any worse than soviets and Stalin

 

 

I hope you’re kidding. Nobody really thinks that Soviets were worse than Nazists. Of course they were better than Nazists, otherwise the USA, Britian and other democratic states wouldn’t cooperate with them against the Nazi evil.

 

 

Originally posted by Polak Polak wrote:

You won't see german soldiers marching with svastikas, but you can see this in todays Russia, even tough nazis didn't mass murder their own people, while soviets did mass murder russians :

 

 

 

Ofcourse Putin is trying to be a kind of succesor of the USSR when he's allowing parades like these.

 

 

It’s you who should be ashamed of yourself. This soldiers and these insignia are dedicated to the victory in WWII the war in which the USSR and Russian people sacrificed millions of their lives to save the world from the extermination and enslavery. It has nothing to do with Stalin and his crimes. And those parades are frequently attended by other allied powers representatives including the USA, France and England. And even Polish people were wearing similar uniforms and were fighting together with the Russians against the Nazists in the WWII.

You have serious problems if you can’t differentiate between the crimes of Stalinism and the positive role of the USSR in the defeat of Nazism.

As about Stalin, Russian leaders don’t consider him good. And he was already condemned by the next Soviet leader after him, Nikita Khrushev.



Edited by Sarmat - 05 Jul 2009 at 06:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 22:17
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

And why the Soviet-German pact was presented out of nowhere without the description of the events that happened before the war including Munich pact and other examples of Western-Nazi cooperation?
 
'cause story must be simple and painted in black and white colours. No 16-gray scale.
 
Have you read Boris Akunin's "Pelageia" series? In one of them father Metrofaniy explains why doesn't he like Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment". Because Raskonikov had to kill not only the old bitch but also her innocent sister. Otherwise reader may not realise how evil he was. Same we apparently can find in this movie.
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Hey Anton Smile.  Long time no see !
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If you think the Nazis were in anyway socialists you really need to reread your history again.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 04:17
I agree. This video is very questionable from a scholar's standpoint. I don't want assumptions and clever arguments. I want legitimacy. Nothing else is worthy of my time.

Polak, I, myself, am simply going to ignore you, because your silly posts piqued with ignorant semantics are simply more than I can bear.  XD It's like browsing comments on youtube.

Precisely what are you trying to accomplish with this topic anyway; which contains less than amateur documentary skills at best, and a presumptuous string of slander without any known purpose other than to incite dislike for an entire population or promote racism. =P Not a very good start for yourself here.

I just watched a despicable video on North Korea yesterday, but I don't hate all its people who are forced to live under its control, or go on wild tangents saying they are all evil. Why? Because I care to be correct. And I blame those directly responsible as one should.

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

If you think the Nazis were in anyway socialists you really need to reread your history again.

 

Al-Jassas



Actually, Hitler officially called and considered Germany, as well as the Nazi party, 'National-Socialist", which is well known. Obviously, it doesn't matter what one calls themselves though -  a name is just a name. And there was certainly nothing socialist about his adminstration, much like there  was nothing much communist from Stalin's rule.

Hitler's opponent in 1929 was actually a Democratic-Socialist, who, if he would have won, would have very arguably fostered a far more peaceful Germany. Because of his political competition, and his former unsuccessful coups, Hitler tried for a more popular bid. He likely attached Socialist to his political 'name' to garnish more widespread appeal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 07:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The inventors of concentration camps were the British. It I am not wrong, they introduced the method in South Africa during the Boers war.


No, the inventors were the Spanish. The Spanish made use of these camps during the rebellion in Cuba during the late 19th century. British observers were there to take note of this.

The Spanish and British concentration camps had entirely different aims to the Nazi ones. Deaths in these camps resulted from the incompetence and mismanagement of the officers left in charge of these camps. Deaths in the Nazi ones were rather more deliberate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 07:53
Interesting point. I will verify it. However, I know British always copied Spaniards... particularly in the bad things Wink

Edited by pinguin - 05 Jul 2009 at 07:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 14:22
He puts Hitler and Mao in the same league of  "socialist" countries.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 17:15
It seems that the inventors of the death camps were Nazis. I mean they created those camps specifially for exterminating people. I don't think anybody did it before. Concentration camps existed before, but that's different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 17:22
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 

Is it your own conclusion?  The movie presented it like it was a genocide specifcally aimed at Ukranians because Stalin didn't like the Ukrainians or something. It didn't say a word about that millions of Russian peasants were dying at the same time. If I am not familiar enough wih the Soviet history, I can make a conclusion that Stalin wanted to exterminate Ukrainians but that was not true. If you can apply the term "genocide" you can say that it was the genocide of the peasant class of the USSR, but not the genocide of the Ukrainian people.

 
The movie clearly stated the genocide began because of the nationalistic resistance in the region, not simply because they were ukrainian and Stalin didn't like them. As we all know Stalin wasn't a russian, so the movie isn't trying to convince the audience in some kind of russian hate for ukrainians or russian genocide against them. It was a soviet genocide against a group of resisting people, that's all.

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 May be it's clear to you, but if one is not familiar enough with the Soviet history, I can make a clear conclusion based on the movie that Stalin conducted the genocide of the Ukrainian people. A general viewer will never do any research.

 
The movie simply can't show all of the soviet mass murders, because it would have to be a 10 hours movie. They decided to show this particular genocide due to it's huge proportions and i am begining to think you're from another nation that was mass murdered by the soviets but wasn't shown in the movie. They didn't stress on the genocide commited against the poles, but i am not offended by this fact, as it is not necessarily to show all mass murdered nations in every doccumentary about the USSR. 

 

 

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

The problem is that is was specifically presented as an “exclusively” Ukrainian genocide.

 
Yes, i've already wrote about this - they didn't say the ukrainians were the only ones and it is simply not possible to talk about all mass murdered nations in the USSR because it would have to be a 10 hours movie.

 

 

  

 

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

You don’t understand what genocide means. Genocide is a systematic, delibarate extermination of a limited group of people. Like Jewish genocide during WWII. Nazists deliberately were killing Jews and left other people intact at least for some time.

 

If in the USSR there was a deliberate policy of killing only Ukrainians, of letting only Ukrainians to die of hunger it would be a Ukrainian genocide. But the truth is that also Russians, Tatars, Germans, Kazakhs etc. were dying at the same time from the same artificially created hunger so it was not a Genocide of Ukrainian people  by definition.

 
They were trying to destroy a whole group of people - those that resisted in some way and that's why it is called a genocide. In 1933 most of the ukrainans were resisting and that's why they commited this genocied in an effort to kill as many ukrainians as possible, until the rest succumbs.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 

It’s a falsification when you take a picture  in one place and presenting  it as it was taken in another place in a different time, unless of course you explain that you just use it in order to help you “to imagine” something. Nothing was explained in that movie.

 
Yes, they probably shoud've said those were differnet pictures, but it is still not a lie or falsification, as the situation it Ukrain looked in just the same. It would be a lie if it was totally different in Ukrain 1933, but it wasn't.The movie is supposed to help people imagine what happened and that's what the pictures did.

 

  

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 Much more people? There is no established statistics like this. There are just some disputed numbers. But you hardly can definitely prove that the USSR killed more people than the Nazi Germany
 

 
If you are seriously stating the soviets murderd less people than the nazis i don't think there's any point in this aguement. It simply means you've either read nothing about the matter or you're biased in some way.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Known facts?  May be only you know that. I don’t know about North Korea. But if you know of such proofs, please kindly give me evidence or at least a link to some documented evidence about the authorization by Stalin of killing of 12 old criminals. Or medical experiments in Gulag, besides the unproved claims of Mr. Melnikoff. Such things simply don’t exist.

 

Saying soviets didn't murder children is like saying they murdered less people than the nazis - both ignorant and biased statements. Read "The black book of communism" (i am not sure it's translated like this in english).

 

 
  
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

I hope you’re kidding. Nobody really thinks that Soviets were worse than Nazists. Of course they were better than Nazists, otherwise the USA, Britian and other democratic states wouldn’t cooperate with them against the Nazi evil.

 
The Nazis didn't mass murder their own people, they brought high living standart,economical prosperity and even enviromentalism to Germany. They were ofcourse bad, because were a totalitarian regime, which ruined many countries and killed millions, but it wasn't as bad to live in Hitler's Germany (if you were a german) as it was to live in Stalin's or Lenin's USSR (nomather who you were). In the USSR there was poverty, famine and mass murders everywhere. Collectivisation, GULAG and destruction of their own nation is what makes the soviets worse than the nazis. Only if you are biased by being either communist or russian can make you think the soviets were better than the nazis.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

It’s you who should be ashamed of yourself. This soldiers and these insignia are dedicated to the victory in WWII the war in which the USSR and Russian people sacrificed millions of their lives to save the world from the extermination and enslavery. It has nothing to do with Stalin and his crimes. And those parades are frequently attended by other allied powers representatives including the USA, France and England. And even Polish people were wearing similar uniforms and were fighting together with the Russians against the Nazists in the WWII.

You have serious problems if you can’t differentiate between the crimes of Stalinism and the positive role of the USSR in the defeat of Nazism.

As about Stalin, Russian leaders don’t consider him good. And he was already condemned by the next Soviet leader after him, Nikita Khrushev.

 
And how did the USSR "save" Eastern Europe from slavery by actually occupying it and keeping the eastern europeans as slaves of the totalitarian regime for 45 years! They maintained the concentrational camps and oppened new to put all who oppose there. They destroyed democracy and turned the eastern European states into satelites of Moscow with no true independance. They freed those put in concentrational camps by the nazis and put others in their place. They destroyed the inteligencia and the high classes. They even executed those that fought the nazis in countries like Poland, because considered them a threat to the new occupation.THIS is freedom? THIS is saving from slavery? It is simply the exchange of one brutal occupation with another and in countries like Bulgaria for example the exchange of normal democracy and freedom with slavery and mass murder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 17:24
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

It seems that the inventors of the death camps were Nazis. I mean they created those camps specifially for exterminating people. I don't think anybody did it before. Concentration camps existed before, but that's different.
 
A death camp is a camp built in order to murder huge masses of people and such camps have been built in the USSR long before the nazi party even existed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 17:27
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

He puts Hitler and Mao in the same league of  "socialist" countries.
 
Al-Jassas
 
I put Mao and Hitler in the league of politicians who say they are socialist, not whose countries have the same economical system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 17:35
Originally posted by ResoundingEagle ResoundingEagle wrote:

I agree. This video is very questionable from a scholar's standpoint. I don't want assumptions and clever arguments. I want legitimacy. Nothing else is worthy of my time.

Polak, I, myself, am simply going to ignore you, because your silly posts piqued with ignorant semantics are simply more than I can bear.  XD It's like browsing comments on youtube.

Precisely what are you trying to accomplish with this topic anyway; which contains less than amateur documentary skills at best, and a presumptuous string of slander without any known purpose other than to incite dislike for an entire population or promote racism. =P Not a very good start for yourself here.

I just watched a despicable video on North Korea yesterday, but I don't hate all its people who are forced to live under its control, or go on wild tangents saying they are all evil. Why? Because I care to be correct. And I blame those directly responsible as one should.

 
And how am i promoting racism or dislike for and entire population by showing a movie about soviet crimes? Soviet is not a nation. People from many nations participated in the mass murders and i am not promoting hatred against any one of them. Against which nation do you think i am promoting dislike?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 17:55
Polak, you provided no evidence or links what so ever to prove that there is an established staistics that the Soviets killed more people than Nazists.
 
You didn't give me any evidence that the medical experiments were conducted inthe Soviet Labor camps (except your favorite movie).
 
You didn't give me any evidence about the alleged order of Stalin to execute 12 years old criminals.
 
Where are all of these ?
 
About the comparison of Nazi and Soviet occupation.
 
How was Poland called during the Nazi occupation ?   Occupied Polish territories. During the Soviet occupation Poland has its own independent state, government and army.
 
Nazis killed 6 million Poles, just because they just were Poles they wanted to wash out Polish nation of the face of Earth, the same was about Czechs, Serbs, Belorussians etc.
 
How many people died in Poland during the Soviet occupation?  Did the USSR want to finish up Polish ethnoc forever?
 
Of course the USSR established an ideological and economic yoke on the Eastern Europe for more then 40 years. But it can't be compared in any way with the brutal colonial regime and mass killings of the Nazi occupation.
 
Finally, I repeat to you that those parades are made to to glorify the people to saved Russia and also many others from certain death. They are not dedicated to Stalin or celebration of Molotov-Rebbentrop pact or occupation of Eastern Europe.
 
It's very easy to distinguish. Anybody can do that.
 
And finally, I repeat that I am not against the idea of this movie. But it presented the real facts mixed with falsifications and fantazies and many things were presented out of context. You can't do such things.
 
If you want to make a movie about the crimes of Stalinism, it should be based only on objective evidence and verified facts.
 
Finally, the comparison of Putin and modern Russia to the Stalin empire is an insult to all Russian people, that by the way, if you forgot got rid of the Commism by themselves and by doing so also allowed Eastern Europe to become free.
 
I don't think it's a rocket science to understand those simple things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 17:58
Sometimes I wonder why some people insists in compare the Nazi with the Soviet regime. The Nazi was a racist and genocidal regime. The Soviet was simply a tough dictatorship, with lots of crimes but in a small scale.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 18:10
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Sometimes I wonder why some people insists in compare the Nazi with the Soviet regime. The Nazi was a racist and genocidal regime. The Soviet was simply a tough dictatorship, with lots of crimes but in a small scale.
 
Clearly you've read nothing about soviets to call their crimes "in a small scale". The soviets murdered MUCH more people than the nazis and i am talking only about the regime in the USSR. If we talk about all communist regimes like those in China and Cambodia the number is above 100 million people - more than 5 times the number of nazi victims. They first built death camps and continued to use them long after the end of the WW2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 22:54
So, far we've seen from you only 100% of talk and 0% facts.
 
It just seems to me that the only source of your knowledge about "the Soviet crimes" is movie "Soviet story."
 
BTW Nazis killed more than 20 million people in the USSR alone. So your calculations about the victims of communist regimes are already incorrect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 23:36
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

BTW Nazis killed more than 20 million people in the USSR alone.
 
I think this number includes not only civilians but soldiers as well.


Edited by Anton - 05 Jul 2009 at 23:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2009 at 02:45
Yes, but millions of soldiers died in captivity due to terrible conditions and treatment. So, it's really very hard to distinguish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2009 at 04:23
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The inventors of concentration camps were the British. It I am not wrong, they introduced the method in South Africa during the Boers war.
 
Well, Pinguin, the honor really belongs to General Valeriano Weyler in 1896 during the Cuban insurrection and his policy of reconcentración moving on an idea postulated by his predecessor Martinez Campo in 1895. The latter's confidential letter to the government in Madrid represents the first historical use of the term "concentration camps"...the British borrowed the Spanish example with the Cuban guerrila insurrection of 1895-1898 in 1900 to meet similar circumstances with the Boers. The Germans first tried it with the Herero resistance in their colony of Southwest Africa in 1905.
 
See: Joel Kotel and Pierre Rigolout. Le  Siècle  des camps. Paris: Lattès, 2001.
 
So, unfortunately, you are wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WolfHound85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2009 at 06:10
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

So, far we've seen from you only 100% of talk and 0% facts.
 
It just seems to me that the only source of your knowledge about "the Soviet crimes" is movie "Soviet story."
 
BTW Nazis killed more than 20 million people in the USSR alone. So your calculations about the victims of communist regimes are already incorrect.


Really or was that troops that were ill-prepared for war? Its hard to say how many people the Soviets killed because there is hardly any records. I could of sworn some historians say up t0 20 million innocents were killed during Stalin's reign. Most of them were Stalin's opponents, Ukrainians, intelligentsia, and peasants. But so far that is a rough estimate. I am afraid no one will be able to understand the real amount of murders carried out by NKVD under Stalin's orders.
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