| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Tension in Ukraine
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


The Tension in Ukraine

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
ALLAN View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ALLAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2014 at 10:28
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

There are times when aggression must be met with aggression.
 
I think that Russia should be given an ultimatum, get out of the Ukraine within 7 days, OR ELSE.
 
The OR ELSE should include blockade of the Crimean ports, airfields and the Ukraine border.
 
Trade sanctions can be applied immediately also, as well as cutting diplomatic ties until Russia complies.
An audacious plan the blockade. It is lost on me what its implementation would entail and what it would achieve. Although I'm bewildered as to these things at present I'm guessing you've worked out how all of these things can be implemented without European countries being constricted at the hands of a huge number of projects being implemented by Russian run gangs.  
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2014 at 14:04
Just a few thoughts to balance the one sided opinions and conspiracy theories in this thread a bit.

1. Russia is defending its interests.  It does not want a Syria on its doorstep.  And neither does it want to be encircled by Nato.

2. Why did the new authorities in Kiev which, through violence, after ousting a democratically elected president repeal Russian as an official language as one of the first things they did?  If I was Russian I would be very anxious of the self proclaimed authorities in Kiev given how many neo-Nazi leaders they have appointed into security roles. 

3. Crimea was part of Russia until 1954 when the then Ukrainian leader of the USSR Kruschev gifted it to the Ukraine.

4. Up to 25,000 Russian personnel are legally allowed in Crimea until 2047 as part of the Black Sea fleet based in Sevastopol.  There is no proof of any violation of this agreement.  Just bullsh*t.

5. Ultimatums to Moscow - The US/Nato is only militantly aggressive with weak countries.  Russia is not one of those I'm afraid.

6.  The US flagrantly violating Ukrainian sovereignty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o - interesting who she stated should be head of the new government now is.  Not to mention all of the visits by EU and US officials to encourage and flare up the protests.  Imagine Russian politicians and diplomats attending and spurring on anti-gov protests in Western or Western aligned nations?

7. The euphemistically named National Endowment  for Democracy has spent $5Bn in the Ukraine since the 90s.  Where does it get that money and what was it spent on? Clearly nothing productive.  Even EU officials are blaming "the opposition" for snipers killing both "protestors" and policemen to inflame the situation.

8.  What happened to wait until Elections if you don't like a president or his policies?  What happened to democratic process?  It's out the window if it's not in Americas's interest.

I don't like fracking or taxation in general.  I have an idea.  Let's all like minded people go and ransack westminster and occupy then burn government buildings and force David Cameron into exile.  People who support the violence orchestrated by western backled neo nazis in Ukraine will undoubtedly erndorse my approach.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2014 at 14:25
Originally posted by ALLAN ALLAN wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

There are times when aggression must be met with aggression.
 
I think that Russia should be given an ultimatum, get out of the Ukraine within 7 days, OR ELSE.
 
The OR ELSE should include blockade of the Crimean ports, airfields and the Ukraine border.
 
Trade sanctions can be applied immediately also, as well as cutting diplomatic ties until Russia complies.
An audacious plan the blockade. It is lost on me what its implementation would entail and what it would achieve. Although I'm bewildered as to these things at present I'm guessing you've worked out how all of these things can be implemented without European countries being constricted at the hands of a huge number of projects being implemented by Russian run gangs.  
Yeah, I suppose I went off on a bit of a rant there, but still, the blockade could succeed if the participants moved swiftly.
 
Naval forces prevent the movement of any shipping into the Crimean ports;
 
European (NATO ?) ground forces blockade land borders, and air components declare no fly zone over the Crimea.
 
I don't see the Russian gangs becoming a factor.
 
Of course the plan is audacious, and it's audacity would be just the thing to drive home to Putin that his expansionist plans are not going to succeed.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Windemere View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Location: U.S.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 295
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2014 at 16:38
I think that one of Putin's (and Russia's) great fears is that Ukraine and Belarus will eventually join NATO, as Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia already have. Russia's leaders probably view the Maidan protests as the start of a slippery slope that could lead to this.  This is somewhat understandable, and  no country wants to have potentially hostile forces stationed on their borders, just as the U.S. didn't want Soviet nuclear missiles stationed in Cuba in the 1960s.  It would be better, for their own benefit, if Ukraine, Belarus, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, pursued a neutral, non-aligned political and military policy, while simultaneously pursuing economic ties with both Russia and the European Union in equal measure.  Ukrainian leaders also need to realize that a significant minority of Ukrainian citizens are ethnic Russians, with cultural ties to Russia. They need to be inclusive of these citizens while at the same time encouraging Ukrainian patriotism, but they need to avoid extreme nationalism.

Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia historically have been the victims of Russian aggression, and they justifiably sought out NATO protection after they regained their independence in the 1990s. But with independence should come discretion.

America and Europe are certainly justified in taking economic sanctions against Russia, but in the long run, they probably won't be effective. Europe depends upon Russian oil and gas, which flows through the Ukraine, and it's not likely that they will willingly forgo this. America and Europe can sequester Russian finances, but Russia can retaliate by doing the same. In the long run, negotiations would be better.


Edited by Windemere - 06 Mar 2014 at 16:41
Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2014 at 17:46
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Just a few thoughts to balance the one sided opinions and conspiracy theories in this thread a bit.


There is no such thing as "balance" in news, either you are lying or you are telling the truth. This false equivalency is utter nonsense.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


1. Russia is defending its interests. It does not want a Syria on its doorstep. And neither does it want to be encircled by Nato.


So was the US when it invaded Iraq so were Turkey and other Arab nations when they intervened in Syria, what's your point since last time we discussed Syria you had no problem with Iranian military intervention, despite Iran having no borders with Syria, but whined about Turco-Arab none intervention despite the overwhelming humanitarian side of it.

Either accept all as legitimate or reject all as illegitimate.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


2. Why did the new authorities in Kiev which, through violence, after ousting a democratically elected president repeal Russian as an official language as one of the first things they did? If I was Russian I would be very anxious of the self proclaimed authorities in Kiev given how many neo-Nazi leaders they have appointed into security roles.


Didn't hear this when Nejad was elected as the great Nate Silver empirically proved in his analysis of election returns back I 08.

Russia is banning all of its Turkic minorities from adopting the Latin alphabet and intervened in Kazakhstan when it wanted to forcing them to remain in Cyrillic and in both cases the Turkic population in Russia is larger than that of the Russian one in Ukraine.

Regardless if it was right or wrong its their decision to make and a clear majority of the old parliament voted for this.

And talking about Neo-Nazis, Neo-Nazis and Russo-fascists are running large segments of the police in Russia and Putin didn't use them as an excuse to cleanse his police forces. Why use them as an excuse in Ukraine?

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


3. Crimea was part of Russia until 1954 when the then Ukrainian leader of the USSR Kruschev gifted it to the Ukraine.


You didn't get the memo did you? So was Ukraine. Indeed Russia conquered Ukraine before Crimea and Ukrainians + Tatars were a clear majority of the population (more than 60%) until they were expelled by Stalin and their homes given to Russian transplants from Siberia. If all the Tatars return Tatars and Ukrainians would easily become a majority again and both don't want to be a part of Russia.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


4. Up to 25,000 Russian personnel are legally allowed in Crimea until 2047 as part of the Black Sea fleet based in Sevastopol. There is no proof of any violation of this agreement. Just bullsh*t.


And where did you get that there was no violation when Russian military personnel used force to attack outside the designated zone without provocation?

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


5. Ultimatums to Moscow - The US/Nato is only militantly aggressive with weak countries. Russia is not one of those I'm afraid.


Here is a list of Russian interventions since independence, please provide a comparable list for NATO:

1- Armenia-Azerbaijan.
2-Geogria four times in Abkhazia, Adjaria and Ossetia.
3- Several coups in Central Asian republics.
4-Tajik Civil war (where they forced the Tajik government to Keep Cyrillic instead of switching to Arabic since Tajik is a Persian dialect despite agreeing to it in the peace of 97).
5-The Balkans several times despite agreeing to Bosnian and Croatian independence.
6-Syria.
7-Transdnieter and Moldova.
8-The Baltics especially Latvia.
9-North Korea.
10-Afghanistan several times after withdrawing.

In all these cases Russia without any threats to it decided to intervene despite agreeing not to. I could go on and on but I hope you get the point.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


6. The US flagrantly violating Ukrainian sovereignty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o - interesting who she stated should be head of the new government now is. Not to mention all of the visits by EU and US officials to encourage and flare up the protests. Imagine Russian politicians and diplomats attending and spurring on anti-gov protests in Western or Western aligned nations?


Those visits came to support the new legitimate government of Ukraine where the parliament used its constitutional authority to oust an unpopular president.

And Russia has intervened enough times as I proved above to make this argument irrelevant.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


7. The euphemistically named National Endowment for Democracy has spent $5Bn in the Ukraine since the 90s. Where does it get that money and what was it spent on? Clearly nothing productive. Even EU officials are blaming "the opposition" for snipers killing both "protestors" and policemen to inflame the situation.


Reminds me of your emphatic defense of the theory "The rebels did it!" last Autumn. Have a little respect for the readers please.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


8. What happened to wait until Elections if you don't like a president
or his policies? What happened to democratic process? It's out the
window if it's not in Americas's interest.


I am with you on this, elections have consequences and the people didn't take down the government immediately, they waited for a break which came when he agreed to the terms of the opposition then renegaded on his promises and committed an impeachable offense when he accepted Russian bribes without going through parliament first. Then he attacked protesters which unleashed hell.

Wonder would you have felt the same after Nejad was elected by a majority with a 65% turnout?


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


I don't like fracking or taxation in general. I have an idea. Let's all like minded people go and ransack westminster and occupy then burn government buildings and force David Cameron into exile. People who support the violence orchestrated by western backled neo nazis in Ukraine will undoubtedly erndorse my approach.




Again, where was this talk in Iran several years ago.

Al-Jassas
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2014 at 02:08
Al Jassas:    Clap
 
Well said.
 
A report in todays newspapers suggests that the motivation for Russias occupation of the Crimean Peninsula was financial.
 
The report claims that Russias financial position is declining, and in order to bolster internal confidence in the Rouble, and to secure international gas and oil links, Putin ordered the invasion.
 
Internally, it seems to be working with the Russian people standing behind him, but, trade has already fallen and international trade confidence is falling each day. Putin needs the Crimean matter to be resolved, but with European opposition to the invasion, it's not likely to end very soon.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2014 at 04:01
Any attempted blockade of Crimea would be militarily unsustainable, and could well escalate into a major conflict, including the use of tactical nuclear weapons, within days. NATO warships would have to pass through the narrow Bosporus, where they would be unacceptably vulnerable. A no fly zone over Crimea would mean taking on the Russian air force, which again would look more like WW3 than it would the Iraq in the '90s.

Probably the only check on Putin is going to be financial. The more haywire he becomes, the more the world's capital will flow into safer havens, or which there are no shortage. Russia may be big, but no nation is big enough to ignore the rest of the world, in a financial sense.

In the meantime, reality may demand some sort of settlement in Ukraine, in which overwhelmingly Russian populated areas detach from the country. Outrageous? Yes, a little, but not without historical precedent. Churchill wanted to hang on to India to the last, the Dutch were shooting upstart Indonesians as late as 1949, and Hawaii? It's not going anywhere, is it? 

Russians just seem doomed to be heavy handed and behind the times perpetually. But I think it will catch up with them, likely around the time oil and gas reserves start to dwindle, or when technology in that sector can no longer milk out the last bits, and then Russians will have to doff their caps, and present themselves in front of the financial community.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2014 at 08:05
Yeah, I guess you're right.
 
But I got it off my chest anyway!Thumbs Up
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 11:31
I really don't see how much of the points are an answer to mine. In fact most of them are off topic and don't draw very good analogies to the situation in Ukraine (and that's being kind).

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Just a few thoughts to balance the one sided opinions and conspiracy theories in this thread a bit.


There is no such thing as "balance" in news, either you are lying or you are telling the truth. This false equivalency is utter nonsense.



Irrelevant, I'm talking about this thread not "the news", thanks.
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


1. Russia is defending its interests. It does not want a Syria on its doorstep. And neither does it want to be encircled by Nato.


So was the US when it invaded Iraq so were Turkey and other Arab nations when they intervened in Syria, what's your point since last time we discussed Syria you had no problem with Iranian military intervention, despite Iran having no borders with Syria, but whined about Turco-Arab none intervention despite the overwhelming humanitarian side of it.

Either accept all as legitimate or reject all as illegitimate.



Haha! exactly what US interest was served by invading Iraq? But that's way off topic.

Please show me where I defended intervention of any kind in Syria in the past (I do now as nothing good will ever come from an alliance which pits the Wahhabi al Qaeda movement and its sponsor states, NATO and Israel on one side with the intent of returning a country to the Stone Age).

"The overwhelming humanitarian side of it". Yes, support for an insurrection which was armed from the outset more arms and funds. 100k+ dead millions upon millions with lost livelihoods ALL because of Turco-Wahhabi-brotherhood intervention.

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


2. Why did the new authorities in Kiev which, through violence, after ousting a democratically elected president repeal Russian as an official language as one of the first things they did? If I was Russian I would be very anxious of the self proclaimed authorities in Kiev given how many neo-Nazi leaders they have appointed into security roles.


Didn't hear this when Nejad was elected as the great Nate Silver empirically proved in his analysis of election returns back I 08.

Russia is banning all of its Turkic minorities from adopting the Latin alphabet and intervened in Kazakhstan when it wanted to forcing them to remain in Cyrillic and in both cases the Turkic population in Russia is larger than that of the Russian one in Ukraine.

Regardless if it was right or wrong its their decision to make and a clear majority of the old parliament voted for this.

And talking about Neo-Nazis, Neo-Nazis and Russo-fascists are running large segments of the police in Russia and Putin didn't use them as an excuse to cleanse his police forces. Why use them as an excuse in Ukraine?



Irrelevant, even if you were right concerning 'Nejad'. That was regarding a "rigged election" not a national policy of a sitting president.

Irrelevant, Russia has every right to decide what alphabets are officially used within its borders. Banning the use of the Latin alphabet is not racist. Banning the use of an ethnic language is.

Illegitimate, The parliamentary votes were passed under coercion from right sector thugs.

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


3. Crimea was part of Russia until 1954 when the then Ukrainian leader of the USSR Kruschev gifted it to the Ukraine.


You didn't get the memo did you? So was Ukraine. Indeed Russia conquered Ukraine before Crimea and Ukrainians + Tatars were a clear majority of the population (more than 60%) until they were expelled by Stalin and their homes given to Russian transplants from Siberia. If all the Tatars return Tatars and Ukrainians would easily become a majority again and both don't want to be a part of Russia.



This is beyond irrelevant and firmly falls within the realms of stupid. What then, may I ask, determined the territorial parameters of the Ukraine? It was a republic within the union of soviet socialist republics (you may know it as the USSR) and Crimea was added to it from Russia in 1954.

If you want to talk about distant history then Russia can claim Kiev since it is the birthplace of Russian civilisation.

And you can then argue that the entirety of Ukraine and Ukrainians themselves are russian or something else since the word Ukraine itself means borderland - an ethnicity named borderlands? Lol.
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


4. Up to 25,000 Russian personnel are legally allowed in Crimea until 2047 as part of the Black Sea fleet based in Sevastopol. There is no proof of any violation of this agreement. Just bullsh*t.


And where did you get that there was no violation when Russian military personnel used force to attack outside the designated zone without provocation?



Too much BBC/CNN or the like for you I think.
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


5. Ultimatums to Moscow - The US/Nato is only militantly aggressive with weak countries. Russia is not one of those I'm afraid.


Here is a list of Russian interventions since independence, please provide a comparable list for NATO:

1- Armenia-Azerbaijan.
2-Geogria four times in Abkhazia, Adjaria and Ossetia.
3- Several coups in Central Asian republics.
4-Tajik Civil war (where they forced the Tajik government to Keep Cyrillic instead of switching to Arabic since Tajik is a Persian dialect despite agreeing to it in the peace of 97).
5-The Balkans several times despite agreeing to Bosnian and Croatian independence.
6-Syria.
7-Transdnieter and Moldova.
8-The Baltics especially Latvia.
9-North Korea.
10-Afghanistan several times after withdrawing.

In all these cases Russia without any threats to it decided to intervene despite agreeing not to. I could go on and on but I hope you get the point.



Irrelevant, Don't know what you're on about here sunshine but my point was Russia is not a weak state therefore it is not a viable military target for the American war machine. So much for military intervention against Russia then.
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


6. The US flagrantly violating Ukrainian sovereignty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o - interesting who she stated should be head of the new government now is. Not to mention all of the visits by EU and US officials to encourage and flare up the protests. Imagine Russian politicians and diplomats attending and spurring on anti-gov protests in Western or Western aligned nations?


Those visits came to support the new legitimate government of Ukraine where the parliament used its constitutional authority to oust an unpopular president.

And Russia has intervened enough times as I proved above to make this argument irrelevant.



Those visits started in December well before the coup. Get your dates straight and the fact yanukovich had to flee for his life illustrates that this was an illegal armed coup. Right sector?
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


7. The euphemistically named National Endowment for Democracy has spent $5Bn in the Ukraine since the 90s. Where does it get that money and what was it spent on? Clearly nothing productive. Even EU officials are blaming "the opposition" for snipers killing both "protestors" and policemen to inflame the situation.


Reminds me of your emphatic defense of the theory "The rebels did it!" last Autumn. Have a little respect for the readers please.


What? Sure you've got the right thread here buddy?
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


8. What happened to wait until Elections if you don't like a president
or his policies? What happened to democratic process? It's out the
window if it's not in Americas's interest.


I am with you on this, elections have consequences and the people didn't take down the government immediately, they waited for a break which came when he agreed to the terms of the opposition then renegaded on his promises and committed an impeachable offense when he accepted Russian bribes without going through parliament first. Then he attacked protesters which unleashed hell.

Wonder would you have felt the same after Nejad was elected by a majority with a 65% turnout?


That's a simplistic view of events pushed by NATO governments and their media organs.

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


I don't like fracking or taxation in general. I have an idea. Let's all like minded people go and ransack westminster and occupy then burn government buildings and force David Cameron into exile. People who support the violence orchestrated by western backled neo nazis in Ukraine will undoubtedly erndorse my approach.




Again, where was this talk in Iran several years ago.

Al-Jassas


Not a compatible situation in any shape or form, Iran is not a democracy. It is a theocracy where only those chosen by the supreme leader can stand. Not very representative in the first place is it, since only his interests are therefore served. And the protests in Iran were spontaneous and unarmed and against the perception of a rigged election, not against the policies of a sitting president, I repeat.

In any case, suck it up. Crimea will be a part of a resurgent and increasingly assertive Russia. Kosovo set the precedent to which Russia is acting.

Looks like America's vision of a new world order has come up against a bit of a brick wall on this one.

But we should all cheer since it is a sure sign of greater global stability and reduced conflict to come. Just no Pax Americana - an audacious, incredible and ultimately deluded concept to begin with.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 11:43
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Any attempted blockade of Crimea would be militarily unsustainable, and could well escalate into a major conflict, including the use of tactical nuclear weapons, within days. NATO warships would have to pass through the narrow Bosporus, where they would be unacceptably vulnerable. A no fly zone over Crimea would mean taking on the Russian air force, which again would look more like WW3 than it would the Iraq in the '90s.

Probably the only check on Putin is going to be financial. The more haywire he becomes, the more the world's capital will flow into safer havens, or which there are no shortage. Russia may be big, but no nation is big enough to ignore the rest of the world, in a financial sense.

In the meantime, reality may demand some sort of settlement in Ukraine, in which overwhelmingly Russian populated areas detach from the country. Outrageous? Yes, a little, but not without historical precedent. Churchill wanted to hang on to India to the last, the Dutch were shooting upstart Indonesians as late as 1949, and Hawaii? It's not going anywhere, is it? 

Russians just seem doomed to be heavy handed and behind the times perpetually. But I think it will catch up with them, likely around the time oil and gas reserves start to dwindle, or when technology in that sector can no longer milk out the last bits, and then Russians will have to doff their caps, and present themselves in front of the financial community.


Exactly why military options are off the table, any view of the Russian military as a decrepit outfit with aged and sub-par equipment which would fall easy prey to western military might is simply warped by the vision of 1960s and 1970s soviet equipment incompetently handled by demoralised conscript Arabs in the first Persian Gulf War.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 16:55
Cosign. Military lunacy should be kept for history records.
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Location: Lower Saxony
Status: Offline
Points: 799
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 18:47
I think it is time for the Crimean tatars to acclaim an independent tatar state on the Crimean peninsula, cos they live there longer than Ukrainians and Russians. Maybe the west should support Jakutians, Mari, Komi, Tuvashians etc, too.
Etiam si omnes, ego non.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2014 at 12:27
I think America should be broken up along ethnic lines too.  You know, Germans, Italians, Scots, Africans, etc...  Or better yet let's revive Southern nationalism and rekindle that ancient hatred of the Feds.  Pfft. Get a grip.

Here's a great article - surprisingly objective for a mainstream American piece- written by a former diplomat (Ambassador to the USSR no less) who knows what diplomacy actually is.  Everyone proclaims Russia as the bad guy here and America and its lackey states as the good guys but he well defines the post Cold-War roots of Russia's hostility to the West.  It has nothing to do with Communism or the Cold War but everything to do with America's hostile actions over the last 2 decades which is conveniently sugarcoated by the mass media - 95% of which (in America) is owned by 6 corporations. Staggering.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/who-is-the-bully-the-united-states-has-treated-russia-like-a-loser-since-the-cold-war/2014/03/14/b0868882-aa06-11e3-8599-ce7295b6851c_story.html


Edited by Zagros - 17 Mar 2014 at 12:51
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Location: Lower Saxony
Status: Offline
Points: 799
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2014 at 13:12
I am not the one who calls the USA the good guys or the europeans the good guys. But there is a big difference between Putin's Russia and Obama's USA or the democracies in Europe. In the Yugoslavian conflict a former multiethnic state collapsed and its parts were longing for liberties, which were rejected by the serbian dominated Yugoslavian government. When the Slovenians got sick of this politics, the Serbs/Yugoslavians used military force. THe Croatians saw, that they won't get liberties inside a serbian dominated Yugoslavia and wanted to split, too. What followed were new attacks by Yugoslavia and ethnic cleansing. Of course did the Croatians then did it, too.It followed Bosnia and the Kosovo. The West did not start these independence movements, it did not suport these from the start, but did so, when all other options failed.
I was and am against the military intervention into Afghanistan. These intervention was backed to some degree by the UN and of course the taliban gave home to the Al Qaeda.
The Iraq war was an aggressive and illegal war, even if it weas against a murderous dictator. But here several european states, like fortunately my state, did not follow the USA.

Russia is not a democracy and it used brutal force to squell down its minorities and it threatens all its neighbours, especially those that formerly belonged to the Soviet Union. Putin is the new Hitler.Appeasement politics won't help.
Etiam si omnes, ego non.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2014 at 13:34
The US supported an independence referendum in Kosovo (not recognised by the UN - the like of which it calls illegal now in Crimea) after bombing the sh*t out of Serbia.  Kosovo was not a Yugoslav republic, it was Serbia proper.  All I am saying is that the chickens have come home to roost.

And as for involvement of EU and US in the Yugoslav civil war; I think you should do a bit more reading up on it to see that it was not so benign.

Putin is the new Hitler? lmao.  Get a grip.  If the same thing happened with the tables turned on America's doorstep we'd all be radioactive dust by now.





Edited by Zagros - 17 Mar 2014 at 13:37
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Location: Lower Saxony
Status: Offline
Points: 799
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2014 at 16:58
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

The US supported an independence referendum in Kosovo (not recognised by the UN - the like of which it calls illegal now in Crimea) after bombing the sh*t out of Serbia.  Kosovo was not a Yugoslav republic, it was Serbia proper.  All I am saying is that the chickens have come home to roost.

The Kosovo was an autonomous province within Yugoslavia. Since 1989 Milosevic reduced the rights of the Kosovo and prosecuted the Albanians there who made the majority of the population.
That the Nato bombed the sh*t out of Serbia is a lie. I have to say it that clear. Human rights watch gave a figure of 500 civilians, most of them killed by misguided weapons.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

And as for involvement of EU and US in the Yugoslav civil war; I think you should do a bit more reading up on it to see that it was not so benign.
The estimated figure of Albanian victims is up to 10,000, a lot killed in massacres. The Serbs did the same in B-H before. But of course, the NATO is evil.Ouch

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Putin is the new Hitler? lmao.  Get a grip.  If the same thing happened with the tables turned on America's doorstep we'd all be radioactive dust by now.

The Ukraine is a sovereign state and Russia has signed international treaties. What happens now is simply an annexion of a foreign country's territory.
Etiam si omnes, ego non.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2014 at 17:08
That makes it no different to Crimea.

You forgot the Chinese Embassy that was bombed too by those "guided" missiles...  And the passenger train that was blatantly attacked while crossing a bridge.  And the massive infrastructure damage and not to mention that the province was migrated into en masse by people from Albania proper and the persecution and terrorism against Kosovo's Serb population.

Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and Syria are also sovereign states but that does not stop unilateral US actions against and within them despite their protests. 

As far as the UN charter is concerned people have a right to self determination and Crimea's people have unanimously declared their intention to join the Russian federation.  if they said that they wanted to be a part of an IMF enslaved impovrished nation that descriminates against their culture then Russia would not accept them into its federation.

If Putin is the new Hitler, what does that make GW Bush?  Ghengis Khan? lol

And if you care to read the piece by the former US ambassador to the USSR, which I linked above, you can see that the situation with Russia is far from black and white and bandying slurs like you are just shows up your ignorance.  Russia was taken advantage of with the utmost disrespect by the US regime after the collapse of the Soviet Union despite making remarkable overtures which, if reciprocated by Washington, would have led to a far more stable and peaceful world today.


Edited by Zagros - 17 Mar 2014 at 17:14
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Location: Lower Saxony
Status: Offline
Points: 799
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2014 at 18:23
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

That makes it no different to Crimea.

Absolutely not. The Crimean region is an autonomous region. The Ukraine did not try to dissolve it or to cleans the ethnic Russians. It is Russia which uses the "protection of ethnic minorities" as excuse for an illegal annexion.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

You forgot the Chinese Embassy that was bombed too by those "guided" missiles...  And the passenger train that was blatantly attacked while crossing a bridge.  And the massive infrastructure damage and not to mention that the province was migrated into en masse by people from Albania proper and the persecution and terrorism against Kosovo's Serb population.

I don't want to excuse the bombing. But if one bombs some bombs can go wrong accidentaly and some pilots can bomb civilian targets deliberately. The massacres of the Serbs were no accident.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and Syria are also sovereign states but that does not stop unilateral US actions against and within them despite their protests. 

I said it before, the war against the Iraq was an aggressiv attack by the USA. I say this since the war started. Afghanistan is something completely different. That the USA uses drones in Pakistan is as well questionable. Of course the pakistani government may protest just for the public oppinion. It is under permanently pressure of fundamentalists. And syria, what's with syria? It is a war of an dictator against his people. The USA hadn't start it. I blamed the USA as well for their cooperation with the Assad-regime. But it is again Russia that supports a dictator. And what's about Iran? Are you defending the mullah regime or the former nut Ahmadinedjad?

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

As far as the UN charter is concerned people have a right to self determination and Crimea's people have unanimously declared their intention to join the Russian federation.  if they said that they wanted to be a part of an IMF enslaved impovrished nation that descriminates against their culture then Russia would not accept them into its federation.

If it would be their free will, I had no problem with it. Have the minorities inside Russia the same rights? And was the election free and secret? It is first of all a coup by Putin and his camarilla.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

If Putin is the new Hitler, what does that make GW Bush?  Ghengis Khan? lol

I would have sentenced the Bush administration, too and I am not the one to defend the government at all. But there is still a difference between the Bushs and Putin, Assad, Kim and all these bas....

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

And if you care to read the piece by the former US ambassador to the USSR, which I linked above, you can see that the situation with Russia is far from black and white and bandying slurs like you are just shows up your ignorance.  Russia was taken advantage of with the utmost disrespect by the US regime after the collapse of the Soviet Union despite making remarkable overtures which, if reciprocated by Washington, would have led to a far more stable and peaceful world today.

I think you support the right of selfdetermination? The baltic states were longing for freedom for decades. They suffered much under the Soviet regime. Russians were settled there to destroy the ethnic structure. Ukrainians fought against Sralin till the 50th- The caucasus is full of people that want to be independent, without any US participation.
And for the Ukraine. The tatars came back just a few decades ago from Stalin's gulag. Great numbers murdered. They come now back under Russian rule, without any right of self-determination.
Etiam si omnes, ego non.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2014 at 19:30
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I really don't see how much of the points are an answer to mine. In fact most of them are off topic and don't draw very good analogies to the situation in Ukraine (and that's being kind).


All of them, you simply don't want to see the truth.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:






Irrelevant, I'm talking about this thread not "the news", thanks.


You raised the point first by talking about "the other side" and citing worthless propaganda.


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:





Haha! exactly what US interest was served by invading Iraq? But that's way off topic.

Please show me where I defended intervention of any kind in Syria in the past (I do now as nothing good will ever come from an alliance which pits the Wahhabi al Qaeda movement and its sponsor states, NATO and Israel on one side with the intent of returning a country to the Stone Age).

"The overwhelming humanitarian side of it". Yes, support for an insurrection which was armed from the outset more arms and funds. 100k+ dead millions upon millions with lost livelihoods ALL because of Turco-Wahhabi-brotherhood intervention.


The question is reciprocal, what does Russia benefit from Crimea? And don't say Black Sea fleet, Russia has the second longest coastline on the Black Sea after Turkey. Build ports in your own country.

As for the US and Iraq. Economic and military domination. Pure and simple. If I was from the US I would have invaded Iraq in 1991.   

As for Syria, your last two paragraphs prove my point. The 9 million displaced by Assad prefer to live under AQ rule (a deliberate misinformation since they only control an area having only 300k people and have already been kicked out by other supposedly "Wahhabi-AQ aligned" groups from nearly all areas outside their last stronghold) and refugees outside their countries rather than live under the dearly beloved. Tells a lot. And by the way 2/3rds of the killed are civilians killed by Assad forces not to mention the 50k tortured to death and documented by the leftist Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2014/jan/20/torture-of-persons-under-current-syrian-regime-report

Admit it, you are a sectarian person which is why you support the Assad regime and his crimes against the people of Syria.


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:





Irrelevant, even if you were right concerning 'Nejad'. That was regarding a "rigged election" not a national policy of a sitting president.


So you are wrong, you know you are wrong and insist on it.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:



Irrelevant, Russia has every right to decide what alphabets are officially used within its borders. Banning the use of the Latin alphabet is not racist. Banning the use of an ethnic language is.


Wow! Just wow!

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


Illegitimate, The parliamentary votes were passed under coercion from right sector thugs.


So the Opposition which controlled Parliament and have been demanding to remove a president they didn't like constitutionally were coerced to doing so? Why did they have second thoughts.


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:




This is beyond irrelevant and firmly falls within the realms of stupid. What then, may I ask, determined the territorial parameters of the Ukraine? It was a republic within the union of soviet socialist republics (you may know it as the USSR) and Crimea was added to it from Russia in 1954.

If you want to talk about distant history then Russia can claim Kiev since it is the birthplace of Russian civilisation.

And you can then argue that the entirety of Ukraine and Ukrainians themselves are russian or something else since the word Ukraine itself means borderland - an ethnicity named borderlands? Lol.


In Zagros universe if you can't repudiate an opposing FACT call it irrelevant.

You just used Russian control over Crimea pre-54 as a legitimate reason for Russia to annex Ukraine now you are saying its irrelevant.

Before 1919 there was no Russia, there was no Ukraine, there were Gubernias (similar to states) directly controlled from St Petersburg. in 1919 Russia and Ukraine became independent entities for the first time and Tuarida Gubernia (which was larger than the current one and located mostly on the Western bank of the Dnper) was transferred to Moscow control for only 35 years before returning to Kiev. Throughout, Ukraineans and Tatars dominated the area not Russians until WWII when Stalin transplanted Russians there murdered half the Tatar population and banned them from returning.

In essence, Ukraine legally controlled Crimea for 60 years, Russia for 35.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:





Too much BBC/CNN or the like for you I think.


I don't have a Television and I see more RT (both Arabic and English versions) on the internet than CNN. Still they didn't convince me.

Again, it seems that you have some resistance to facts.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:






Irrelevant, Don't know what you're on about here sunshine but my point was Russia is not a weak state therefore it is not a viable military target for the American war machine. So much for military intervention against Russia then.


You whine constantly about American/NATO intervention and call any mentioning of Russian bullying which is much more brazen, murderous and direct irrelevant.

No, I say it will remain relevant until you stop whining or call it what it is.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:






Those visits started in December well before the coup. Get your dates straight and the fact yanukovich had to flee for his life illustrates that this was an illegal armed coup. Right sector?


What coup? where are the tanks and uniforms? Indeed the Ukrainian military is actually pro-Russian and dominated by ethnic Russians.

As for the visits, these were mediation visits asked for by Yankovych himself.


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:






What? Sure you've got the right thread here buddy?



Buddy, you used this argument before. The side that you ideologically support is purer than 24 carat Gold. Its always the other side. Reminds of Golda Maier's infamous quote "How horrible the Palestinians are, they force us to kill their children!".

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:




That's a simplistic view of events pushed by NATO governments and their media organs.


No its not, it truth, look it up.


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:






Not a compatible situation in any shape or form, Iran is not a democracy. It is a theocracy where only those chosen by the supreme leader can stand. Not very representative in the first place is it, since only his interests are therefore served. And the protests in Iran were spontaneous and unarmed and against the perception of a rigged election, not against the policies of a sitting president, I repeat.


Lipstick on a pig. 65% showed up for the vote. It shows they like the regime and support it. Call it what you want it is still democracy. And the protests were limited to upper class Tehranites and a couple of other cities. Pro-Regime demos were larger and more spontaneous.

As for the protests, same was in Syria same was in Ukraine. The first blood spilled was those of children from the rape the had in Deraa and the people killed in Maidan when the camps were attacked a month ago.

Your problem is you don't like the Syrian/Ukrainian protest. In Syria because of your sectarian beliefs and in Ukraine because of your ideological beliefs.


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


In any case, suck it up. Crimea will be a part of a resurgent and increasingly assertive Russia. Kosovo set the precedent to which Russia is acting.


Crimea was gone the day Obama let Assad of the hook (and still keeping 96% of its known chemical weapons) and praised the Iranian regime in The Atlantic last month as a "source of stability in the mideast". With an enemy like that who needs allies?

As for Kosovo there is a world of difference. I am perfectly willing to accept Crimea gone if Russia accepts Kosovo as gone. The problem is Russia wants Crimea and still doesn't recognise Kosovo's independence and have already asserted its position on Kosovo hasn't changed.

You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


Looks like America's vision of a new world order has come up against a bit of a brick wall on this one.

But we should all cheer since it is a sure sign of greater global stability and reduced conflict to come. Just no Pax Americana - an audacious, incredible and ultimately deluded concept to begin with.


America is lead by an idiot who has balls the size of apple seeds, excuse my French. Weak inside the US and Weak outside the US. Again Russia tried intervention in 2004 and Cheney told Russians to behave which they promptly did. There is no Cheney in American right now and I am afraid that that is why the world is in such a chaos.

Remember WWI started when Britain basically downgraded itself into a second rate power by entering into the Entate Cordial which sent a signal to Germany that Britain was not neutral anymore. With this conflicts will only increase. Do you really think the Russians won't move into the Baltics next?

Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2014 at 19:58
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


That makes it no different to Crimea.

You forgot the Chinese Embassy that was bombed too by those "guided" missiles...  And the passenger train that was blatantly attacked while crossing a bridge.  And the massive infrastructure damage and not to mention that the province was migrated into en masse by people from Albania proper and the persecution and terrorism against Kosovo's Serb population.


Propaganda. Even the Serbs are ashamed of saying BS like this yet you seem more Serbian than Serbs themselves.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and Syria are also sovereign states but that does not stop unilateral US actions against and within them despite their protests.


Iraq should have been invaded in 1991, that was Bush Sr. mistake.

Afghanistan sheltered people who attacked the US and went publically on TV and said so. Unless you live in Lala land and think 9/11 was a conspiracy.

Pakistan has a joint operations command where they coordinate the attacks with the US and then protest them for popular consumption. Its in Wikileaks. Plus the UAVs are on Pakistani soil from Pakistan AFBs.

Syria occupied Lebanon where they oppressed Sunnis and Christians (odd isn't it for "protectors of minorities") for 30 years (read Fisk not me) and helped in the mass murder of Palestinians in coordination first with Christian militias, then Israeli forces and finally with Shia militias. Supported PKK terror, Hizb terror, AQ in Iraq terror, Leftist German terror, Japanese Red Army terror, Italian Red army terror. All documented and proven. What did they expect, rose pedals?


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


As far as the UN charter is concerned people have a right to self determination and Crimea's people have unanimously declared their intention to join the Russian federation.  if they said that they wanted to be a part of an IMF enslaved impovrished nation that descriminates against their culture then Russia would not accept them into its federation.


So you have no problem in dismembering Iran where only 50% of the population is actually ethnically Persian?

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:



If Putin is the new Hitler, what does that make GW Bush?  Ghengis Khan? lol


Putin isn't the new Hitler although he is getting there.

Dubya knew his limits and stuck to them. He never attacked Syria despite having a legitimate reason to do so and having just won re-election. He didn't attack Iran either despite renegading on its nuclear obligations as well as supporting AQ terror in Afghanistan and Shia terror in Iraq.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


And if you care to read the piece by the former US ambassador to the USSR, which I linked above, you can see that the situation with Russia is far from black and white and bandying slurs like you are just shows up your ignorance.  Russia was taken advantage of with the utmost disrespect by the US regime after the collapse of the Soviet Union despite making remarkable overtures which, if reciprocated by Washington, would have led to a far more stable and peaceful world today.



An opinion from one guy. It still doesn't change the facts on the ground.

Al-Jassas
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2014 at 00:19
WOW!
 
This thread is heating up.
 
I fully support the right of a people to "self determination", but the situation in the Crimea doesn't quite fit the criteria.
 
Of all the "ethnic" Russians in Crimea, how many have lived there for many generations, and how many have only lived there since 1954?
 
If the numbers have been stacked over the years by Russian military people, their families and support workers, then I would say that Ukraine should control the Crimea.
 
Is it the case that the Russians in the Crimea are comparatively new "incomers"?
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 916
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2014 at 11:14
Well, I do not recognise such a right as "self determination" but I do recognise people whose parents brought there without their consent - I suppose. Even if their parents brought with consent this doesn't bind them at all. If Crimenian Tartars should be (people I mainly care about in Crimenia) recompanseted, that shouldn't be done by taking away properties/rights of half a century old Russian people. Me as an enemy of the nation state also declare I do not like neither my own country (Turkey) nor Russia, I would destroy them if it was within my will. Nation states are evil entities... Idea of Russia and idea of Turkey is evil - as any other nation states - and this have been proven countless times.

I'm well aware nation states are a reality of our time but this doesn't mean I'll enjoin their sins. I just wanted to express reasons for my standing point on this issue. People who are about to express their doubts about moral absolutism may keep their opinion for themselves. Moral relativism is very off topic and I already wondered too far from the topic.
the single postmodern virtue of obsessive egalitarianism
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2014 at 11:31
Do you understand the meaning of "self determination"?
 
In case you don't it means, basically, the right of a people to determine their own future by voting for independence from the ruling country, to remain part of the ruling country or, under certain circumstances, to become part of another country.
 
Do you really not agree with this principle? 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 916
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2014 at 14:24
No, I do not agree.
the single postmodern virtue of obsessive egalitarianism
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 00:27
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

No, I do not agree.
 
 
So, does this mean that you favour a totalitarianism rule, where people have to toes the party line?
 
People who think for themselves are enemies of the state and are purged?
 
Dictatorships are rapidly going out of fashion, or hadn't you noticed?
 
Why do you take this line?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 916
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 09:37
Don't we start again Embarrassed If monarchy is the rule of aristocracy, democracy is the rule of bourgeoise. People don't actually have much say. In every possible scenario people follow their ideological, economical or cultural elite. They are the ones who rule the nations, not people. In democracies, most of power lies on economical elites and they share rule of the state according to their relative power wealth.

Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 16 Apr 2014 at 15:36
the single postmodern virtue of obsessive egalitarianism
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 10:00
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Don't we start again Embarrassed If monarchy is the rule of aristocracy, democracy is the rule of bourgeoise. People don't actually have much say. In every possible scenario people follow their ideological, economical or cultural elite. They are the ones who rule the nations, not people. In democracies, most of power lies on economical elites and they share rule of the state according to their relative power.
 
That's a very proletariat outlook comrade.
 
If you're willing to remain one of the downtrodden plebians of society, that's your decision.
 
Personally, I prefer to have a say in my future and the future of my country, my culture.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1071
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 11:31
Quote The Russian people have had a small taste of capitalism, and they wouldn't want to go back to the bad old days.
Yes they do, because they don't see the old days as bad. Those with money might see things differently of course, but that's the problem with capitalism - not everyone gets wealthy, whereas communism supported the poor (badly perhaps, but there you go)
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 11:53
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote The Russian people have had a small taste of capitalism, and they wouldn't want to go back to the bad old days.
Yes they do, because they don't see the old days as bad. Those with money might see things differently of course, but that's the problem with capitalism - not everyone gets wealthy, whereas communism supported the poor (badly perhaps, but there you go)
 
 
I find it totally unbelievable that the Russian people would want to go back to the bad old days of food shortages, waiting for years to be able to buy a car, living in substandard housing etc.
 
Sorry, I can't accept what you say as fact.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4922
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 03:08
There's a fraction, too much friction (Tim Finn)
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.158 seconds.