| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Tension in Ukraine
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


The Tension in Ukraine

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2014 at 01:59
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote he US administration pushed hard during the Cuban missile crisis, but they where unaware at the time that there were tactical nuclear weapons in Cuba, and on Soviet submarines, and that they would have been used if things got just a bit hotter than they did.

Oh come on. The Americans were well aware that missiles in Cuba were there for one purpose only - strategic threat.


The US was well aware of the intermediate range, strategic missiles placed in Cuba. Indeed, this was the whole point of the indignant response to Soviet efforts.

What they were not aware of at the time was that the Soviets had supplied tactical, or battlefield as they are sometimes referred to, nuclear weapons to the island, and to Soviet subs in the area. These were actually a form of madness in themselves, as planners at the time thought one could blast a ship or land position a few kilometers away with a low yield weapon, 1-10 kilotons or so, and then go on to seize such gains, as though radiation and other effects were nothing to worry about. Although these have fallen out of favour in recent times, in 1962 the Soviets were dead serious about the use of such weapons. They included rockets with a very short range, a few K or so, designed for army use, and the warheads on torpedoes on submarines.

My point is here that the carefully constructed ideology of MAD could have been, and almost was, derailed by unknown and complicating factors. The US thought they had a strong position, as they completely overshadowed the Soviets with conventional forces, and made the guess that Cuba was not worth an all out nuclear was. But they had completely failed to factor in an intermediate scenario: US forces intervene in Cuba, and are devastated by small nuclear weapons, including ships at sea. What then? In the near hysteria of the times, a rapid escalation would have been very likely. MAD is most certainly.....madness.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2014 at 11:51
Well MAD is certainly an emotive issue, with good reason I guess, and Dr Strangelove illustrates the madness in a comedic sense. But you have to realise that the game was serious and if either side thought a 'first strike' advantage was plausible, it remained an option. Both US and Soviet commands were alerted by errors in their systems that the other side had launched such an attack, and I happen to know that a lowly lieutenant in the Soviet forces was not so long ago praised for his part in persuading his senior commanders that it was a mistake and that the US had not launched an attack despite the warning lights flashing away.

From a rational perspective you have to question the wisdom, but the world had reached a point where two opposing blocs had extremely powerful weapons at their disposal and were facing off against each other knowing full well that a partial response by an enemy would be extremely damaging. In a way it reverts to an old attitude from the ancient world - that if you did not defend your civilisation, you either became part of theirs and took the punishment, or your civilisation was razed to the ground.

To be honest I haven't much time for the 'it was all madness' opinion. That might sound just as mad as the accusation, but look again at the situation. The threat was real and only required a decision in a tense moment.  That decision was ,likely to be a rational one, as strange as it sounds, as it's our helplessness in the face of overwhelming destruction that makes the issue so ridiculous - not the situation or its potential outcome, and emotive opinions wouldn't have mattered one jot.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2014 at 07:32
Well folks, the secret's out.
 
Russias intention is that the Ukraine be divided into three parts, the eastern and western parts to be Moscow controlled.
 
While the bleeding hearts wring their hands and ask; "What can we do?" Russia pleases itself and gets away with it.
 
There are two options that the rest of the world can adopt:
 
1. Do nothing-display cowardice and weakness, permit the extension of Russian hegemony; or
 
2. Stand up to Russia militarily. Putin would not dare go to war over the Ukraine when the rest of the world, except apparently China (and of course North Korea) is against him.
 
The world must not allow Putin his own way in this flagrant annexation of a sovereign country.
 
 
Ne khorosho!
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 16 Apr 2014 at 07:33
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2014 at 07:46
PoH wrote:
More you sleep on problems, worse position you will find yourself when you finaly wake up.
 
Spot on mate.
 
Caldrail and others fear a nuclear war could ensue, I believe, emphatically, that any confrontation between Russia and the West would amount to a face off, and that's about it. But there has to be a confrontation.
 
Putin must be shown up to be a bully, and put back in his place, as the leader of a fragmented empire. But that's part of the problem, Putin believes his own publicity and his own egotistic image.
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2014 at 11:50
No, I don't fear a nuclear war, because I know both sides aren't stupid enough to let it get that far. However, the game of threat and bullying will continue because the Russians are gambling on success. It's their back yard and difficult for the western states to interfer. I do note however that the Russians have been making some very direct and provocative moves toward US naval ships.That's typical of Russian tactics - it's saying "back off America!".

However much you might want to see the west beat up on Russia, bear in mind to do so entails a huge outlay of men, equipment, supply, & finance, for which the west has little to gain other than a thank you from a state regarded as right wing in eastern Europe and a disgruntled Russia that has been pushed back to Cold War standoffs. As much as I'm getting tired of the constant news items on Russian television protesting innocence and complaining about western warmongering, their accusations of America wanting a return to the Cold War might well be seen as a reality than anews headline if some care isn't taken. It's all very well shaking your fist and growling - sometimes the other side doesn't back down, and an outright war is desired by neither side.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2014 at 12:19
Caldrail:
I don't want to see the west "beat up on Russia".
 
What I do want is for the world to stand up to Russia, and virtually say, "This isn't on. Leave the Ukraine alone."
 
If that means threats of military intervention, a la NATO or the UN, so be it.
 
And should there be a quid pro quo? The world needs to demonstrate that smaller, weaker countries can exist without fear of bullying by their neighbours, regardless of who those neighbours are!
 
And I repeat that I believe, emphatically, that any confrontation between Russia and the West would amount to a face off, and that's about it. But there has to be a confrontation if Russia doesn't back off NOW!
 
To say any more would be repetitive so I'll stop right here.
 
Ne khorosho folks!
(Not good, folks)


Edited by toyomotor - 16 Apr 2014 at 12:33
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 916
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2014 at 15:42
Nuclear weapons are not deterrants of proxy wars or limited goal wars. That has been understood a few decade ago and military expenses switched in favor of conventional warfare. The main reason people are talking about risks is they are certainly no longer equipped with psycology required for confrontation. Merkel's apparent confusion is all about this.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Don't we start again Embarrassed If monarchy is the rule of aristocracy, democracy is the rule of bourgeoise. People don't actually have much say. In every possible scenario people follow their ideological, economical or cultural elite. They are the ones who rule the nations, not people. In democracies, most of power lies on economical elites and they share rule of the state according to their relative power.
 
That's a very proletariat outlook comrade.
 
If you're willing to remain one of the downtrodden plebians of society, that's your decision.
 
Personally, I prefer to have a say in my future and the future of my country, my culture.

I didn't saw your post. A bit of late response but I'm not commie. I believe in true free market. Where every player -big or small- has a fair chance. Unlike todays world where we have been told so but bigs are changing rules of the game every so often to their favour and capitalism is about to eradicate any competition with buyouts, market denial and other monopolistic practices.

By the way, "the single postmodern virtue of obsessive egalitarianism" is what I hate, not what I embrace.

Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 16 Apr 2014 at 16:35
the single postmodern virtue of obsessive egalitarianism
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2014 at 19:44
There is no guarantee that military actions will stop at a certain point. History has proved this over and over. WW1 was going to be over by Christmas. Then it was the war to end all wars. Then Germany's attempt at dominating Europe became a world-wide Armageddon. Korea was going to be a surgical police action, but China intervened, despite the threat of nuclear weapons, and the problem still festers. Vietnam was also seen as surgical, but that didn't play by the script either.

There is no telling were military intervention in Ukraine might end, but it could easily morph into a disaster.  And expecting the Russians to back down, Cuba style, is not on. Cuba was an opportunity that just fell into their laps, and it was one they really didn't need in any important sense. Ukraine is totally different. Russians think about that country in a similar way to which the US thinks about Hawaii or Porto Rico, or the way England thinks about Scotland. Sure there may be some different cultures there, but there is also a long shared history. Any military action there would be seen as an all out attack on Russia. This is a dangerous proposition, because as Russia has atrophied and its military rusted away due to lack of funding and lack of morale, they have come to depend ever more on the early use of nuclear weapons in any potential conflict. All the factors are in place for a catastrophic event.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2014 at 03:35
So Captain, what do we say to the Ukrainian people, goodbye, so long, sayonara?
 
We just sit on our bums and watch the country to be taken by Russia, without lifting a finger to help?
 
The latest new release is that tanks flying Russian flags have entered another Ukrainian city.
 
"Tanks flying Russian flags have entered the eastern Ukrainian city of Slovyansk, where insurgents have seized government buildings in the city and another eight in the region."
 
There are some things, imo, that are worth fighting for, and freedom is one of them. But the Ukraine lacks the power to hold off Russia, so what now?
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 17 Apr 2014 at 03:36
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2014 at 04:24
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

So Captain, what do we say to the Ukrainian people, goodbye, so long, sayonara?
 

We just sit on our bums and watch the country to be taken by Russia, without lifting a finger to help?

 

The latest new release is that tanks flying Russian flags have entered another Ukrainian city.

 

"Tanks flying Russian flags have entered the eastern Ukrainian city of Slovyansk, where insurgents have seized government buildings in the city and another eight in the region."

 

There are some things, imo, that are worth fighting for, and freedom is one of them. But the Ukraine lacks the power to hold off Russia, so what now?

 

 


Freedom, toyomotor, is a much used term that has been twisted this way and that throughout history, usually for the most selfish interest, in the most shameless fashion. American revolutionaries wanted to be free, but in reality they ended up no more free, except for a small merchant class that briefly enjoyed limited restraints on commerce. WW1 was a fight for freedom, except it wasn't really, just a colossal miscalculation of the great powers of the time, one for which millions died.

Today the west condemns Russian intervention in Ukraine, but our own meddling in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Cuba, Korea, Chile, and numerous other places around the world, including the Soviet Union in 1919, is seen as OK- we had some good intentions, allegedly, so why not? Bring the wogs around to our way of thinking, n'est ce pas?

Now Russia is making a grab for some territory, that in relative terms is rather modest: a majority or very large segment of ethnic Russians, a long, long history of connection with Russia, industry that was originally a group effort within the Soviet Union, and hey, we're foaming at the mouth.

Don't get me wrong. Putin is a nutbar that is probably going to end up getting shot by one of his own generals, if you ask me. But geopolitics is not a nice game. We in the west have killed untold thousands, and ran roughshod over many more, in order to get our way historically. Moscow is now pushing the envelope as far as they think it will go. It's actually not all that far. And in any case, there is no military solution to it. There may be an economic one, if enough investors bail out of Russia. We'll see.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2014 at 07:17
Captain:
The US has in fact stuck it's nose into far too many areas where it had no business to do so, but, those forays were never intended to annexe land from a sovereign country. Exert influence, yes, certainly. Protect Americas long term political interests? Yes again.
 
But, in 1954, it was seen appropriate by the leadership of the USSR to hand Ukraine its freedom from Russian overlordship. Russia, as the local schoolyard bully was always going to be in a position to exert influence over the Ukraine, no matter what. That Russia entered into deals with the Ukraine to host part of its naval fleet, for the Ukraine to manufacture and supply to Russia aircraft and munitions was not a brotherly act, but deals which certainly saw Russia benefit, as well as the Ukraine.
 
I say again, Ukraine never was part of Russia, it was part of the USSR, and yes, Russia controlled the USSR, but the USSR now doesn't exist, and therein, imho, lies part of the problem. Putin and some of his henchmen want Russia restored to the glory of leading the USSR once again, and being a power player in global politics. Russia certainly lost face when the USSR collapsed.
 
The people of every country have the right to self determination, but in this case it looks to me like the Russians may have salted the population of the Ukraine with so many ethnic Russians that it can now claim to be protecting it's own citizens from Ukrainian discrimination.
 
It's all part of a long term goal of re-establishing the old USSR, or even expanding it.
 
How's that for a conspiracy theory Captain?
 
So far, the Ukraine has not requested US assistance, but if it does, what then?
 
Will America bolster the NATO Forces which already moving to support the Ukraine?
 
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2014 at 13:01
Quote I say again, Ukraine never was part of Russia, it was part of the USSR, and yes, Russia controlled the USSR, but the USSR now doesn't exist, and therein, imho, lies part of the problem.

But the Ukraine does contain populations of ethnic Russians.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2014 at 18:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain:
The US has in fact stuck it's nose into far too many areas where it had no business to do so, but, those forays were never intended to annexe land from a sovereign country. Exert influence, yes, certainly. Protect Americas long term political interests? Yes again.
 
But, in 1954, it was seen appropriate by the leadership of the USSR to hand Ukraine its freedom from Russian overlordship. Russia, as the local schoolyard bully was always going to be in a position to exert influence over the Ukraine, no matter what. That Russia entered into deals with the Ukraine to host part of its naval fleet, for the Ukraine to manufacture and supply to Russia aircraft and munitions was not a brotherly act, but deals which certainly saw Russia benefit, as well as the Ukraine.
 
I say again, Ukraine never was part of Russia, it was part of the USSR, and yes, Russia controlled the USSR, but the USSR now doesn't exist, and therein, imho, lies part of the problem. Putin and some of his henchmen want Russia restored to the glory of leading the USSR once again, and being a power player in global politics. Russia certainly lost face when the USSR collapsed.
 
The people of every country have the right to self determination, but in this case it looks to me like the Russians may have salted the population of the Ukraine with so many ethnic Russians that it can now claim to be protecting it's own citizens from Ukrainian discrimination.

I think this comes under the heading of be careful what you wish for. Those in the eastern Ukraine voted heavily for the pro-Russian party in recent elections, and given the "right of self-determination", some strategic areas would no doubt go with Russia. Given such rights, some areas would continue to fracture down and down, into the smallest tribal entities, such as we have seen in the Caucasus, the former Yugoslavia, parts of Africa, and other areas. Like a lot of other aspects of democracy, it only works with a certain amount of balance and agreement.

Originally posted by Toyomotor Toyomotor wrote:

It's all part of a long term goal of re-establishing the old USSR, or even expanding it.
 
How's that for a conspiracy theory Captain?

On a scale of 1-10, I'd make that about a 0.9. Bringing back the old USSR is not on, and really, who would want the old nuclear testing grounds in central Asia, the ill-tempered tribalists in the Caucasus, or the resentful and now resolved residents of the former Baltics?

I think Putin's goal is  to establish his self-inflated place in history, as he sees it anyway, and more immediately, to play to his political support in the country, in order to maintain his perks and prestige. An easy way to do this is to assuage the raw nerve Russians have due to their being history's equivalent of the cartoon before the feature film. Support for those Russians marooned in Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and a few other places plays to this sentiment, and really it's a security issue, as we are talking about the immediate border of Russia.

Originally posted by Toyomotor Toyomotor wrote:

 
So far, the Ukraine has not requested US assistance, but if it does, what then?
 
Will America bolster the NATO Forces which already moving to support the Ukraine?
 
 

Militarily, the US and NATO will do no more that token jestures. To truly face off Russia on its own border, massive conventional forces would need to be employed, which would no doubt then be countered by tactical nuclear weapons, which would then dump us on the doorstep of Armageddon. NATO didn't do it for Hungary in '56, and they are definitely not going to do it for Ukraine today, an area where history, demographics, and legal claims are far less cut and dried, and the military prospects more daunting.

There may be some moves in the financial area. Russia must deal with the international banking system in order to sell its oil and other products. This leaves Russia somewhat vulnerable due to the west's dominance of this field. Refusing to do business with Russian banks, pulling out of investment deals, or freezing certain assets may have some sobering effect. The Russians could of course respond, but they are in the weaker position, still locked into a basically small, resource dependent economy.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2014 at 02:28
Captain:
So, in the final analysis, Russia takes what it wants and the world stands by and watches.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2014 at 21:29
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain:
So, in the final analysis, Russia takes what it wants and the world stands by and watches.

My guess is that Russia will eventually pay a price. It's a small world today, and it runs on money and brains. To date, no one has been successful at thumbing their nose at the world, and remaining separate. Note places like N Korea, Burma, or China before '79. Smart money, and smart people, aren't going to stick around a place that is on its way to becoming a crumbling rogue state. When Moscow has to come to the world community and ask for a loan in order to prevent defaults and civil unrest, their foreign policy will likely undergo reevaluation. 
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2014 at 22:52
The logic of annexation in Ukraine by Russia is exactly the same that the situation when Texas and a third of Mexico was grabbed by the U.S. Ethnic minorities or majorities living in a territory but with allegiance to neighbors countries usually change the nationality of territories.
Besides, for me it is not comprehensible that a former Russian capital, like Kiev, now lies outside Mother Russia. I blame the alcoholic of Yelsin for all this mess. 

Besides, China took Tibet and nobody care. The U.S. invades wherever it wishes and nobody cares either. I think that Russia think it can do as it pleases with the former territories of the Soviet Union, particularly in Ukraine.


Edited by pinguin - 18 Apr 2014 at 22:56
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2014 at 02:35
Captain: You're probably right. But by then it will be too late, the Ukraine will have been absorbed into Russia.
 
Pinguin: You're getting back to normal! Your anti US rant is both incorrect and inappropriate in this thread.
 
Did you forget that Mexico and America went to war over the land you refer to? Does the Alamo ring any bells with you?
 
But you're correct in your last paragraph, Russia does appear to think it can run rough shod over the Eastern European countries.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2014 at 04:04
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain: You're probably right. But by then it will be too late, the Ukraine will have been absorbed into Russia.
 
Pinguin: You're getting back to normal! Your anti US rant is both incorrect and inappropriate in this thread.
 
Did you forget that Mexico and America went to war over the land you refer to? Does the Alamo ring any bells with you?
 
But you're correct in your last paragraph, Russia does appear to think it can run rough shod over the Eastern European countries.

Not too many times I stand with the flightless bird, but this time his irony is acute. The US is being hypocritical, in historical terms, by condemning Russia's adventure in Ukraine. At least half of the country of the USA came from similar adventures. In the case of Texas and the SW, the parallels are almost uncanny. 

A group of settlers moves into an adjacent country, with varying degrees of acceptance from their hosts. After a while, nostalgia sets in, and the now rather large subset in the country says: hey, it's time for anschluss! We want it all, despite what international norms say. The former hosts are understandably peeved, but they loose out to what is now a stronger neighbour, weighing in on behalf of the settlers. Half the country gets steamrollered over by the uber-bullies, and the claim that the meek shall inherit the earth now sounds even more absurd. Sound like the Ukraine? Nope, it's Texas, 1830' and 40's, USA performing the role of Putin, and Mexico performing the role of Ukraine.

Forget about the Alamo Toyomotor. That bit of history comes from Hollywood. Gary Cooper looked pretty good there firing the flintlock, and uttering manly encouragements, but it was basically BS.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2014 at 08:48
Captain:
Hasn't society moved on a bit since the early 1800's?
 
What was acceptable or tolerated back then certainly is not acceptable or tolerated now.
 
I don't believe that to refer to previous centuries actions is particularly relevant, although the actions may be similar.
 
 
That was then, this is now!
 
And since when did hypocracy prevent political action around the globe? Isn't that politics is all about? Having people believe that what you did was correct, while when they do the same thing it's wrong.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2014 at 14:04
Come on Toyomotor. Everybody knows the U.S. grabbed half of Mexico by force. The U.S. first robbed the lands to the Indians (considered savages) but then continue with states (that were also considered primitive). That's a fact. It is the way the U.S. has behaved in Latin America, Philippines, Japan and everywhere in the world. It is not rant but just the description of the way the U.S. acts.

I just brought that into the discussion to show your old fashioned anti-Russian bias is not fair. You are judging Russian external politics forgetting that the leader of the Anglo-Saxon imperialism (The U.S., which is so admired in the English speaking world) behaves the same way. In short, please don't be an hypocrite in this topic.




Edited by pinguin - 19 Apr 2014 at 14:06
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2014 at 15:09
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Come on Toyomotor. Everybody knows the U.S. grabbed half of Mexico by force. The U.S. first robbed the lands to the Indians (considered savages) but then continue with states (that were also considered primitive). That's a fact. It is the way the U.S. has behaved in Latin America, Philippines, Japan and everywhere in the world. It is not rant but just the description of the way the U.S. acts.

I just brought that into the discussion to show your old fashioned anti-Russian bias is not fair. You are judging Russian external politics forgetting that the leader of the Anglo-Saxon imperialism (The U.S., which is so admired in the English speaking world) behaves the same way. In short, please don't be an hypocrite in this topic.

Here we go AGAIN!
 
 Everybody knows the U.S. grabbed half of Mexico by force. The U.S. first robbed the lands to the Indians (considered savages) but then continue with states (that were also considered primitive.
 
1. Yes, I know, but that doesn't legitimise what Russia is doing today. Old English proverb "Two wrongs don't make a right." No doubt you're talking about the non-slum part of the southern USA?
 
I just brought that into the discussion to show your old fashioned anti-Russian bias is not fair.
 
2. Not old fashioned at all. Just a freedom loving human being who is biased against communism and it's goals, global hegemony.
 
(The U.S., which is so admired in the English speaking world)
 
3. I don't admire much about the USA's culture. And if you've read and understood any of my previous posts where the US is concerned I've condemned it's past actions. BUT, you enjoy the freedom to criticise the US only because it has taken such overseas actions that you dislike so intensely.
 
If you lived in Russia Tovarich, you would not have been free to write some of the things that you have.
 
 
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2014 at 16:18
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain:
Hasn't society moved on a bit since the early 1800's?
 
What was acceptable or tolerated back then certainly is not acceptable or tolerated now.
 
I don't believe that to refer to previous centuries actions is particularly relevant, although the actions may be similar.
 
 
That was then, this is now!
 
And since when did hypocracy prevent political action around the globe? Isn't that politics is all about? Having people believe that what you did was correct, while when they do the same thing it's wrong.

Globally, we appear to be very slow learners. All have played the same game up until very recently, to the extent that it was possible, and desirable. Europeans were fighting colonial wars right up to the '70's, although now have turned inward, their economies no longer benefiting from overseas holdings. The US still suffers the occasional imperial twitch, which it insists on scratching, to the dismay of the older players. Iraq was seen as a lovely new power base in the Mid-East, right next to all that oil, and in addition they were to get ride of a dangerous loose cannon at the same time. A double home run in the imperial world series. What was that saying about the plans of mice and men? Iraq turned out to be not lovely at all, but a never ending drain of blood and money. And hey, surprise, it turns out there is still loads more oil in the US, locked up in shale. Ah well, back to the drawing board. Anyone left on the hit list?

There are many things that shouldn't happen in the world, but do. My verdict is: divide up Ukraine, and get it over with. This is a long standing European tradition- keep re arraigning those borders. Those areas predominantly Russian, go to Russia. The rest can join the EU, and integrate with the rest of the world.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2014 at 03:08
Captain:
Slow learners indeed!
 
What was that old saying again, "He who ignores history is bound to repeat it's mistakes?" or something like that.
 
Well, we've flogged this post to death mate, who's next?Smile
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2014 at 07:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

1. Yes, I know, but that doesn't legitimise what Russia is doing today. Old English proverb "Two wrongs don't make a right." No doubt you're talking about the non-slum part of the southern USA?


Yes, the proverb is right. But your bias shows. Fortunately, not all leaders during the Cold War were as militaristic as yourself. And, indeed, slum-or non-slum, South West U.S. was Mexico.
 
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


Not old fashioned at all. Just a freedom loving human being who is biased against communism and it's goals, global hegemony.


You make me remember an old communist proverb: "Freedom: how many crimes have been committed in your name?"
 
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I don't admire much about the USA's culture. And if you've read and understood any of my previous posts where the US is concerned I've condemned it's past actions. BUT, you enjoy the freedom to criticise the US only because it has taken such overseas actions that you dislike so intensely.


Unlike yourself, I admire the culture of the U.S., particularly of the intellectuals and the elite (that are a small minority in comparison to their Simpson-style ignorant common people). What I don't admire of the U.S. is theirs militarism, imperialism, colonialism and the hypocrisy of "freedom" used like a brand name. And sure, I don't like either the U.S. calls itself "America", because that's the name of the whole hemisphere and not just of the U.S. territory. I am an American, too!!! Angry

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

If you lived in Russia Tovarich, you would not have been free to write some of the things that you have.


I didn't live in Russia, but I lived in the Chile governed by dictator Pinochet: a paradise created in my country by the freedom loving Americans named Kissinger and Nixon. So, unlike yourself, I have experienced lack of freedom. Therefore, I believe I know a little more about the topic than you.



Edited by pinguin - 20 Apr 2014 at 07:22
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2014 at 07:33
Pinguin:
 
"Yes, the proverb is right. But your bias shows. Fortunately, not all leaders during the Cold War were as militaristic as yourself. And, indeed, slum-or non-slum, South West U.S. was Mexico."
 
And don't we all have some bias?
No-one's ever accused me of being a dove.
Yes it was. And hasn't it benefitted in some ways by being American rather than Mexican?
 
Yes, you have lived under a Dictatorship and certainly you have more idea than I will ever will about what that would be like.
 
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
 
You have certainly railed against the USA in other posts, many of them, but now you say you admire it's culture.
"...militarism, imperialism, colonialism and the hypocrisy of "freedom" used like a brand name."
 These are aspects of the US culture, the people are the greatest "patriots" on earth.
 
Oliver North is a patriot!Wink
 

 
 
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 20 Apr 2014 at 07:34
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2014 at 07:45
What I love of the U.S. are, in this order: the American Indians' cultures, theirs inventors and creative people in general, theirs positive attitude to business and enterprises, theirs achievements in space, and in particular a few politicians like Benjamin Franklin, F.D. Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan!
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2014 at 12:10
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

What I love of the U.S. are, in this order: the American Indians' cultures, theirs inventors and creative people in general, theirs positive attitude to business and enterprises, theirs achievements in space, and in particular a few politicians like Benjamin Franklin, F.D. Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan!
 
And this is relevant to Russias escapades, how?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2014 at 16:46
Not really. 
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2014 at 04:02
Pinguin: So, do you have anything constructive to add about the Russian actions in the Ukraine?
 
Let's not go back to finger pointing at things that happened 200 years ago, we all admit, I think, that many things done in the era were wrong, but they were of a different ago to that in which I live. I'm not too sure about you.Moon
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2014 at 04:26
If an Elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
Desmond Tutu.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.