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The truth about Saudi Arabia

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    Posted: 27 Jan 2016 at 13:12
An interesting article about how the honesty of the Swedish foreign minister enrages Saudi Arabia, and is met with silence in other parts of the world. Human rights or womens liberation is obviously not as important as economic gain.

"Sweden’s feminist foreign minister has dared to tell the truth about Saudi Arabia. What happens now concerns us all.

Margot Wallström’s principled stand deserves wide support. Betrayal seems more likely"




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 01:52
Sorry, mate. I really shouldn't be on at all, so I don't presently have time to read the article and formulate anything worthwhile.

That said: Welcome back, Carcharodon! It's been a long time! Between you, es_bih, Constantine, Panther, and me, we ought to plan a reunion party! Smile

-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 28 Jan 2016 at 01:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 02:58
Sweden should look to its own backwards policies in regards to immigration, which has allowed in multitudes of worthless people with regressive cultural attitudes who have no respect for women.

Sweden now has the second highest rate of rape in the world, as a direct consequence of these silly policies. Put your own house in order before presuming to do the same with others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 09:12
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Sweden should look to its own backwards policies in regards to immigration, which has allowed in multitudes of worthless people with regressive cultural attitudes who have no respect for women.

Sweden now has the second highest rate of rape in the world, as a direct consequence of these silly policies. Put your own house in order before presuming to do the same with others.
Sweden and other Europeans problems and sometimes not ideally performed policies should not prevent justified criticism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 17:37
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Sweden should look to its own backwards policies in regards to immigration, which has allowed in multitudes of worthless people with regressive cultural attitudes who have no respect for women.

Sweden now has the second highest rate of rape in the world, as a direct consequence of these silly policies. Put your own house in order before presuming to do the same with others.
Sweden and other Europeans problems and sometimes not ideally performed policies should not prevent justified criticism.

A government which has taken its own country from a place of low crime and high fulfilment of human rights objectives for its own citizens - and then has turned it into a place where it cannot keep its own women safe from packs of foreign rapists - is in no position to give lectures to other countries on how to treat its women.

Sweden criticising Saudi Arabia for how it treats its women is comparable to a ruined heroin addict mounting the pulpit to scream abuse at someone for being moderately overweight.

The truth about Saudi Arabia, is that I'd feel safer leaving my sister there than I would in the suburbs of Stockholm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 18:43
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Sweden should look to its own backwards policies in regards to immigration, which has allowed in multitudes of worthless people with regressive cultural attitudes who have no respect for women.

Sweden now has the second highest rate of rape in the world, as a direct consequence of these silly policies. Put your own house in order before presuming to do the same with others.
Sweden and other Europeans problems and sometimes not ideally performed policies should not prevent justified criticism.

A government which has taken its own country from a place of low crime and high fulfilment of human rights objectives for its own citizens - and then has turned it into a place where it cannot keep its own women safe from packs of foreign rapists - is in no position to give lectures to other countries on how to treat its women.

Sweden criticising Saudi Arabia for how it treats its women is comparable to a ruined heroin addict mounting the pulpit to scream abuse at someone for being moderately overweight.

The truth about Saudi Arabia, is that I'd feel safer leaving my sister there than I would in the suburbs of Stockholm.
There are many rumors around and I am not that sure all are true, even for Sweden, though it is years since I visited that country.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 18:55
Sweden, if I am correct, has a high incidence of teen pregnancy, children out of wedlock, divorce and a porn industry.  I think Saudi Arabia might look upon them in horror, at their social situation.  Sweden has a strong welfare state, whereas Saudi Arabia relies on a tribal family structure.  Each has its faults, and its advantages.

On the other hand, there was the story about the American woman who divorced the Saudi man, but he took their teenage daughter to Saudi Arabia.  A few months later, an American congressman acting on behalf of the mother, is able to see the daughter, now married and pregnant, but of course he cannot talk to her alone because of course, he is not blood relative, which is what is required for any male to be alone with any female in 'the kingdom.'  Needless to say, he goes home empty handed.

miscellaneous crime might be more of a concern for for Sweden, getting stuck in country permanently or even executed would be more of a concern for Saudi Arabia.  It strikes me that Swedish officials would be much more understanding of idiosyncratic behavior than Saudi religious police would be.

It is admirable what this feminist foreign minister was _trying_ to do, but it is not a question of doing "something," but rather a question of doing something fruitful or productive, which is not what she did, on the other hand, maybe there will be positive results from this that we can't foresee.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2016 at 19:03
The "world" find many things to criticize in European countries. Fine. It goes both ways.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2016 at 05:37
Fantasus
You sound like your feelings are hurt by the idea that people might criticize European countries.  But let's just say that there is room for improvement for all, and from all there is resistance, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad ones.  Some people thrive under freedom, some are destroyed by it (usually with some kind of risky behavior).  Some people need strong structure, some people look upon it as an opportunity for exploitation.  A person in one environment might do better in another environment, if they only knew.  Or we can say that one size fits all, but if we say that then what it really means is that it fits none, but is what people have to have, like it or not.

There are a lot of things that I don't think are right about Saudi Arabia, but what I dislike the most is when they are over here, and they flaunt our laws, by fleeing with a child during a custody battle, or enslaving a Philippino housemaid, or running over someone in a hit and run, and fleeing back to the mother country.  They may wish to believe that they have some special code of ethics, but really what it works down to is whatever is good for them.  Tribal ethics tends to put the tribe first no matter how heinous the crime of another tribe member.  Of course, I am not sure this is much different from France and the rapist Roman Polanski, but there you go, maybe Europe isn't that different from Saudi Arabia after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2016 at 08:30
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Fantasus
You sound like your feelings are hurt by the idea that people might criticize European countries.  But let's just say that there is room for improvement for all, and from all there is resistance, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad ones.  Some people thrive under freedom, some are destroyed by it (usually with some kind of risky behavior).  Some people need strong structure, some people look upon it as an opportunity for exploitation.  A person in one environment might do better in another environment, if they only knew.  Or we can say that one size fits all, but if we say that then what it really means is that it fits none, but is what people have to have, like it or not.

There are a lot of things that I don't think are right about Saudi Arabia, but what I dislike the most is when they are over here, and they flaunt our laws, by fleeing with a child during a custody battle, or enslaving a Philippino housemaid, or running over someone in a hit and run, and fleeing back to the mother country.  They may wish to believe that they have some special code of ethics, but really what it works down to is whatever is good for them.  Tribal ethics tends to put the tribe first no matter how heinous the crime of another tribe member.  Of course, I am not sure this is much different from France and the rapist Roman Polanski, but there you go, maybe Europe isn't that different from Saudi Arabia after all.
You are right that Europeans should take criticism. And perhaps we even sometimes only get hurt because we deserves to be that. And Europeans criticizes each others ways too. In general we can not complain with any "justification".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2016 at 21:37
I think that when the article says she is a feminist, then people say, 'oh there you go another rabid feminist from a liberal European country.'  What would have happened if the article did not describe her as a feminist, or if it had _just_ said that she recognized Palestinians (leave out the part of 'sticking it' to big bad Netanyahu).  What if she had used humor, an aside comment about 'of course, Saudi old men marry little girls, how else would they get laid?'?  Something she could apologize for hurting their feelings (but everyone would know that she wouldn't mean it).  One of those, "it was regrettable that your fighter jet hit our survelliance plane and forced us to land in your country," kind of non-apology apologies (US-China Clinton admin.)

If the media was on her side, they could paint her as an honest friend to the Arabs (Palistinians, bloggers), who may have overreached a little in speaking truth to power (or "truth" to power, she is not exactly defenseless), but that is understandable given how frustrating the situation (of SA) is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2016 at 14:02
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Sweden should look to its own backwards policies in regards to immigration, which has allowed in multitudes of worthless people with regressive cultural attitudes who have no respect for women.

Sweden now has the second highest rate of rape in the world, as a direct consequence of these silly policies. Put your own house in order before presuming to do the same with others.
Sweden and other Europeans problems and sometimes not ideally performed policies should not prevent justified criticism.

A government which has taken its own country from a place of low crime and high fulfilment of human rights objectives for its own citizens - and then has turned it into a place where it cannot keep its own women safe from packs of foreign rapists - is in no position to give lectures to other countries on how to treat its women.

Sweden criticising Saudi Arabia for how it treats its women is comparable to a ruined heroin addict mounting the pulpit to scream abuse at someone for being moderately overweight.

The truth about Saudi Arabia, is that I'd feel safer leaving my sister there than I would in the suburbs of Stockholm.
There are many rumors around and I am not that sure all are true, even for Sweden, though it is years since I visited that country.

Well I'm on the other side of the planet. You're separated from them by a narrow stretch of water that you could swim across if you chose.

Here's some information to help keep you up to date.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaYwwyQWUrE
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2016 at 05:11
The average IQ in Saudi Arabia is 84.  Now think of how you talk to your slowest friend when he is with his family and when he is alone with you.   Now think of the Saudi government as the parent of slow children and I think you see how challenging it is to address the average Saudi if the leaders maintain there parental authority.

Now consider how helpless your friend would be without parents.  If you want to help your friend do you separate them from their abusive parents?   Sunni Islam and the Saudi government are abusive, deceptive, and authoritarian but they are responsible for a population not prepared for western ideology.

It is a lie to a large extent that we can educate people out of the barbaric culture they inherit anymore that we can eliminate white privilege in the west.  Egalitarian movements can be very destructive if they are based on the false concept of blank slate equality of human intellectual potential.  In the U.S. you need look no further than the idea that everyone should go to college to see how the drain on resources is not only painful for individual families but is a disservice to a large part of the population.

If you think these comments are cultural bigotry I would suggest that neo liberalism is a form of bigotry that assumes equality without evidence.  Once we extended the idea of equality beyond the law we fall victim to our own pandering condensation that is readily detected by those less fortunate.  Stop telling people that they have equal rights and show them that they have an equal opportunity to fail.  It is cruel to hold out the prospect of equality to those who have little hope of obtaining it.  The charitable course is to point out how they can avoid the worst pitfalls of living in an unequal world.  People are naturally inclined to kill the messenger unless the cost of doing so is greater than the pain of dealing with the voracity an immediacy of the message.

Just as with our slow friend we need to address the Sunni leaders and Saudi royals as abusive parents.  Pandering to multi culturalism is barbaric and counter productive.  If the pope had never been challenged we would still be living in the dark ages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2016 at 06:53
There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
I don't think much about IQ scores.

equality should be equality of opportunity, what someone does with that opportunity is another question.
equality of result is a pernicious idea, requiring government highhandedness to suppress overachievers, and coddle underachievers.  College for everyone is not a good idea, unless you are a liberal academic and want to have job security and indoctrinate the next generation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2016 at 19:00
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
I don't think much about IQ scores.

equality should be equality of opportunity, what someone does with that opportunity is another question.
equality of result is a pernicious idea, requiring government highhandedness to suppress overachievers, and coddle underachievers.  College for everyone is not a good idea, unless you are a liberal academic and want to have job security and indoctrinate the next generation.

Nobody likes IQ scores and nobody knows what they measure.  That said they are a fairly descent measure of how well someone you are talking to is going to understand the concepts you are trying to convey and that is how I'm using them here.  World wide IQ scores are rising so we can expect that or ability to communicate will increase over time.  

The other important aspect here is that people like Pinker have hopefully put and end to the Blank Slate idea of human nature.  On the other hand when I look at the politics of prominent scientist I see that intelligence and common sense are indeed not hallmarks of each other.  Certainly however it is not helpful that organizations like the Guardian have policies against critiquing Islam.  

Daniel Dennett when asked what he thought of I.Q. scores dodged the question by saying that there are things we don't need to know.  I would say there are different ways of using what we know.  What the evidence shows is that epigenetics is seriously underrated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2016 at 00:31
Wow!!

There are some "way out there" comments in the above posts, including references to spurious statistics.

I'd like to see the scientific references to the proof for some (if not all) of these posts.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2016 at 06:39
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Wow!!

There are some "way out there" comments in the above posts, including references to spurious statistics.

I'd like to see the scientific references to the proof for some (if not all) of these posts.

They are easy to find if you want to look for them.

Spurious statistics is not how I would characterize them although many people feel that IQ scores are not meaningful.  You can take whatever side you want to on the validity of IQ scores but the national scores themselves are not widely debated in the psychology world.  The fact that so much effort has gone in to discrediting them is in my opinion indicative of a great deal of prejudice on the part of people who want the happy news.

If you are really into depressing bad news I would recommend you start with the twin studies.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2016 at 23:39
What is new today is old tomorrow.

I don't intend to research material posted by others, but it would be better, imo, if, when posting material like some of the above, if the member posted the scientific support for their posts.

Remember, just my opinion.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2016 at 02:30

toyomotor I understand that many people are not aware of the IQ "gap"  this has as much to do with politics as anything else.  I was reluctant myself to bring the subject up but it seemed that it was appropriate in this thread because of the same kind of voluntary censorship that applies to that topic applies to how we treat Saudi Arabia.

The debate is not over the gap but the causes within the scientific community.  The following is a debate between two of the leading researchers in this field. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KD6i5TkjSs

Here is an article from a leading research accusing the profession of biased reporting.

http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1994egalitarianfiction.pdf

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2016 at 17:17
If the issues I raise were limited to how to deal with Saudi Arabia then it would be unimportant but as long as we have societies that treat everyone as having equal abilities we will fail to provide a happy environment for the less intellectually capable.  

Today's world is is becoming more and more divided around intellectual ability.  When the more gifted no longer live in the same community and work with the less capable both classes become more isolated.  Living in isolation the emotional ties that lead to mutual appreciation can not form and bitterness has an incubator. 

Consider for just a minute who is more important to your quality of your life?  The CEO, a banker, the researcher, or the garbage man and the baker.  Many supposed intellectuals have no idea how the system that provides their life support is maintained.  Being divorced from reality is the first deadly sin and is evident no where as emphatically as in our liberal academic circles.

How many of you reading this forum know the average intelligent level of any group of people?  Now ask yourself why you do not have that information despite the fact that the figures are readily available and considered accurate among the academics.  Now ask yourselves who benefits the most from having a society divided by intellectual ability and who is least likely to question the entitlement that intelligence brings.

Almost everyone in our societies are capable of being productive and providing for a better future for us all but we have created a system based on false equality that damages and disheartens a large segment of the population.  Societies require mutual respect and appreciation of the contribution of others.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2016 at 00:51
I don't have those figures because I don't want those figures.  Lies, damn lies, and statistics.  I do not believe in quantifying everything.  The quantification of things is itself a quality of our modern analysis.  To you that may sound like we should do it (quantify), to me that means that _quality_ is a prior choice in our analysis.  Why deal with what is derivative if you can go to the root?  Don't get me wrong, I am studying geometry and early mathematics in order to understand the Pythagoreans better.  But instead of quantifying psychology, sociology, anthropology, I would rather just go to the root, and read philosophy. American social sciences get excited by quantitative analysis, because it makes the social sciences superficially resemble what they consider valid, the "hard" sciences, physics, chemistry, biology, etc.  The French aren't as enamoured with quantification as Americans are, and they treat psychology as more of a branch of philosophy, than "social" "science."  
Oh, if you treat "social" "sciences" like the hard sciences, then obviously you can get a lot more research money than if you treat it like a philosophy.  Both methods have their advantages, but research dollars tends to be more of an advantage of the American "Mass U." style.  Of course, some topics may be verboten, but you are talking about something that is an issue (or rather, maybe, is suppressed and thus not an issue) for an _American_ system.  That issue might be able to translated into another culture, but how well that works, I am not sure.  It is not a dominant issue for French thought. 
I am sure that there are ways of analyzing art quantitatively, but I am not sure what the point of such an endeavor is.  That is, unless you are a restorationist, or a forger.  I prefer the "psychology" of the work, as a testament to an outstanding individual, in a different time, a different place, a different mind set.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 01:36
Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

The average IQ in Saudi Arabia is 84.  Now think of how you talk to your slowest friend when he is with his family and when he is alone with you.   Now think of the Saudi government as the parent of slow children and I think you see how challenging it is to address the average Saudi if the leaders maintain there parental authority.

Now consider how helpless your friend would be without parents.  If you want to help your friend do you separate them from their abusive parents?   Sunni Islam and the Saudi government are abusive, deceptive, and authoritarian but they are responsible for a population not prepared for western ideology.

It is a lie to a large extent that we can educate people out of the barbaric culture they inherit anymore that we can eliminate white privilege in the west.  Egalitarian movements can be very destructive if they are based on the false concept of blank slate equality of human intellectual potential.  In the U.S. you need look no further than the idea that everyone should go to college to see how the drain on resources is not only painful for individual families but is a disservice to a large part of the population.

If you think these comments are cultural bigotry I would suggest that neo liberalism is a form of bigotry that assumes equality without evidence.  Once we extended the idea of equality beyond the law we fall victim to our own pandering condensation that is readily detected by those less fortunate.  Stop telling people that they have equal rights and show them that they have an equal opportunity to fail.  It is cruel to hold out the prospect of equality to those who have little hope of obtaining it.  The charitable course is to point out how they can avoid the worst pitfalls of living in an unequal world.  People are naturally inclined to kill the messenger unless the cost of doing so is greater than the pain of dealing with the voracity an immediacy of the message.

Just as with our slow friend we need to address the Sunni leaders and Saudi royals as abusive parents.  Pandering to multi culturalism is barbaric and counter productive.  If the pope had never been challenged we would still be living in the dark ages.

I see where you are getting at with some points here, but I think a generalized judgement, based on IQ scores, or any other limited statistic, is a bit over the top.

IQ tests, like any others, can be fallible, and have limitations. And they certainly lose value when trying to assign such characteristics to a whole society.

Saudi Arabia is definitely a conundrum, sending women abroad to train as psychologists, while not allowing them to drive at home. Opening modern hospitals, while amputating hands of thieves. Clearly though, as with any human population, there is a spectrum of "intelligence" as far as that may be (roughly) measured. And even more so with a developing nation, there can be a  vast gulf between those just emerging from pastoral tribalism, and those just back from Harvard or MIT, with their PhDs.

To look at the other side of the coin, we could do an anthropological expedition in a western country, the US for example, probe some rural towns, or perhaps a few Walmart parking lots, and find a similar cultural and intellectual milieu as was illustrated the movie "Deliverance", with its Ozark DNA anomalies. In fact, we could save our money, and simply tune in to some Trump campaign rallies, if evidence of a strata of society with a generally low IQ was all that was required. 

It could be there is an element of what you are suggesting, a dark but pragmatic leadership holding down the tribal underclass, until or if it can rise up to western standards, but...one can also visualize opposite possibilities. Religion has been a traditional tool for those in power to retain such status. During the "Arab spring", quite a few young folks were out in the street, advocating for something quite other than pastoral tribalism.

Myself, I certainly wouldn't clutch some IQ numbers close to my heart, not for any significant judgments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 05:35
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 Myself, I certainly wouldn't clutch some IQ numbers close to my heart, not for any significant judgments.

In any other field of intellectual endeavor experts would be vetted and their opinions considered.  When in comes to human intelligence the experts are to be ignored and personal opinions held in high regard if they conform to natural prejudices.  It is very much like saying the climate scientist simply have no idea what they are talking about because the subject is simply too complex and the political bias to extreme.

I can respect people like Daniel Dennett who answer the question of IQ with the simple reply that there are some things that we don't need to know, the problem is we already know.  The only thing left to unravel is the nature vs nurture debate.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfsc0K5B384

That said we should never let a little thing like reality get in the way of social justice.  Embarrassed   The problem is that the real injustice comes from applying standards to people that they have little hope of achieving.

I admit I was somewhat reluctant to post the information on IQ but it is simply to well known and vetted already in the academic world to think that posting it here would have any negative impact.  I also find on a personal level that the politics of the intellectual gifted are often childlike in their obtuseness.  Often there is little difference between the fantasy land that high IQ individuals live in and the delusions of the intellectually challenged.  Fortunately for us wisdom is a fundamental property of the human experience and it seems in many ways to be shared equal among the bright and the dull. 

It is well known and scientifically vetted that inbreeding reduces intelligence and to suggest that the scientist doing this research are unaware of such a bit of information shows the depth to which you are willing to go to make a point.  Such positions are nothing short of slander and as such represent one of the worst habits of humanity.  You could of course just simply reject the social sciences out of hand but what you can't do is pick and choose according to your whims. 

We are not in need of a society with equal intelligence we are in need of a society that has equal respect for people of varying intelligence.

  


 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 21:40
Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 Myself, I certainly wouldn't clutch some IQ numbers close to my heart, not for any significant judgments.

In any other field of intellectual endeavor experts would be vetted and their opinions considered.  When in comes to human intelligence the experts are to be ignored and personal opinions held in high regard if they conform to natural prejudices.  It is very much like saying the climate scientist simply have no idea what they are talking about because the subject is simply too complex and the political bias to extreme.

I can respect people like Daniel Dennett who answer the question of IQ with the simple reply that there are some things that we don't need to know, the problem is we already know.  The only thing left to unravel is the nature vs nurture debate.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfsc0K5B384

That said we should never let a little thing like reality get in the way of social justice.  Embarrassed   The problem is that the real injustice comes from applying standards to people that they have little hope of achieving.

I admit I was somewhat reluctant to post the information on IQ but it is simply to well known and vetted already in the academic world to think that posting it here would have any negative impact.  I also find on a personal level that the politics of the intellectual gifted are often childlike in their obtuseness.  Often there is little difference between the fantasy land that high IQ individuals live in and the delusions of the intellectually challenged.  Fortunately for us wisdom is a fundamental property of the human experience and it seems in many ways to be shared equal among the bright and the dull. 

It is well known and scientifically vetted that inbreeding reduces intelligence and to suggest that the scientist doing this research are unaware of such a bit of information shows the depth to which you are willing to go to make a point.  Such positions are nothing short of slander and as such represent one of the worst habits of humanity.  You could of course just simply reject the social sciences out of hand but what you can't do is pick and choose according to your whims. 

We are not in need of a society with equal intelligence we are in need of a society that has equal respect for people of varying intelligence.


Not entirely sure what you are getting at here with either IQ's, or inbreeding. My reference to the movie "Deliverance" was not about inbreeding, but was about giving a vivid illustration that low IQ's are not anyone's sole property. 

Reasonably large populations tend to have a spectrum of "intelligence", as best as that can be measured, with a bulk near the middle, but certainly outliers on either side. The US has its outiers, with profs at Harvard and MIT on one side, and also its good ole boys who don't cotton to no book learnin', and know Obama is communist and terrorist, on the other. Saudi has its camel herders and religious drones, and also its doctors and engineers, who have passed exams in western universities.

That some populations would vary as a group, I wouldn't doubt for a minute. I would doubt the notion that it means people there are just a bit dumber on the whole. One could think of several historical and sociological factors just off the cuff that would give reasons for such a skew. 

If you are saying what I think you are saying- correct me if wrong- that some populations in other countries simply have a lot of slow people in them, and nothing for it but keep a firm fist on them, and hope for better in a few generations, or a few centuries, then I disagree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 03:16
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 Myself, I certainly wouldn't clutch some IQ numbers close to my heart, not for any significant judgments.

In any other field of intellectual endeavor experts would be vetted and their opinions considered.  When in comes to human intelligence the experts are to be ignored and personal opinions held in high regard if they conform to natural prejudices.  It is very much like saying the climate scientist simply have no idea what they are talking about because the subject is simply too complex and the political bias to extreme.

I can respect people like Daniel Dennett who answer the question of IQ with the simple reply that there are some things that we don't need to know, the problem is we already know.  The only thing left to unravel is the nature vs nurture debate.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfsc0K5B384

That said we should never let a little thing like reality get in the way of social justice.  Embarrassed   The problem is that the real injustice comes from applying standards to people that they have little hope of achieving.

I admit I was somewhat reluctant to post the information on IQ but it is simply to well known and vetted already in the academic world to think that posting it here would have any negative impact.  I also find on a personal level that the politics of the intellectual gifted are often childlike in their obtuseness.  Often there is little difference between the fantasy land that high IQ individuals live in and the delusions of the intellectually challenged.  Fortunately for us wisdom is a fundamental property of the human experience and it seems in many ways to be shared equal among the bright and the dull. 

It is well known and scientifically vetted that inbreeding reduces intelligence and to suggest that the scientist doing this research are unaware of such a bit of information shows the depth to which you are willing to go to make a point.  Such positions are nothing short of slander and as such represent one of the worst habits of humanity.  You could of course just simply reject the social sciences out of hand but what you can't do is pick and choose according to your whims. 

We are not in need of a society with equal intelligence we are in need of a society that has equal respect for people of varying intelligence.


Not entirely sure what you are getting at here with either IQ's, or inbreeding. My reference to the movie "Deliverance" was not about inbreeding, but was about giving a vivid illustration that low IQ's are not anyone's sole property. 

Reasonably large populations tend to have a spectrum of "intelligence", as best as that can be measured, with a bulk near the middle, but certainly outliers on either side. The US has its outiers, with profs at Harvard and MIT on one side, and also its good ole boys who don't cotton to no book learnin', and know Obama is communist and terrorist, on the other. Saudi has its camel herders and religious drones, and also its doctors and engineers, who have passed exams in western universities.

That some populations would vary as a group, I wouldn't doubt for a minute. I would doubt the notion that it means people there are just a bit dumber on the whole. One could think of several historical and sociological factors just off the cuff that would give reasons for such a skew. 

If you are saying what I think you are saying- correct me if wrong- that some populations in other countries simply have a lot of slow people in them, and nothing for it but keep a firm fist on them, and hope for better in a few generations, or a few centuries, then I disagree.

This probably represents the most distasteful serious posts I have ever made on the internet.  The way intellectual ability is distributed across ethnicities is a matter of scientific research not racial prejudice.  The way such information would have been used in the past is a side issue in many ways.  What we are all looking for is hopefully social justice.  

I'm as strong a supporter of social engineering and such things as quotas as any liberal.  That said a system that tries to impose artificial equality creates as many injustices as forced segregation.  Liberals have destroyed the one place where intellectual inequality does not need to infringe on happiness and that is the drug free, stable and responsible family.  The evidence that the welfare state and the sexual revolution has destroyed the family is so overwhelming that I will not even present the evidence here.  Giving licence in behavior to the intellectually gifted does not have equal outcomes in other groups.
  
Among 35-to-39 year-olds, four-fifths of college-educated adults have married but only three-quarters of less educated adults have married.  The 38% of marriages in which the wife had only a high-school diploma,  dissolved in the first 10 years, compared with 16.5% in which the wife had a college degree or more. 53% of  mothers who lack a high school diploma and who live with their children are married, as compared with 78% of dads with the same educational level.  84% of moms who have a bachelor’s degree and live with their children are married, compared with 95% of dads with a bachelor’s degree.  We could move on to the success rates for single parent children but I don't think we need to.  Any suggestion that IQ and education are not linked is of course delusional.  What is more important is that these figures persist despite year of social engineering like head start.

Moving on to a closer look at education.There is an income gap in graduation rates for sure but there is an even greater racial gap. According to Education Department data, 47 percent of students who receive Pell grants, a federal student aid program for low-income students, graduate within six years, a higher graduation rate than that of both blacks and Latinos.  58 percent of whites and 69 percent of Asians who entered four-year colleges in 1996 had a bachelor’s degree six years later, compared to 39 percent of blacks and 46 percent of Hispanics.

We could argue the cause of these figures but a more telling example exists.  Chinese American students, who score above whites on IQ, filed suit against the San Francisco Unified School District not to desegregate the schools but to escape the consequences of desegregation's remedies.  Here we have a group that is widely discriminated against facing even more discrimination because of public policy who none the less are the most successful group in society.  I would argue that Oriental success has a lot to do with r vs k selection but the evidence is long and tedious.  What isn't debated is the strength of the oriental family.  The same family structure that the intellectual community that promotes ethnic diversity, radical feminism and sexual freedom has all but destroyed.

What we need to do is value people of all intellectual abilities and not focus so much on making people equal.  When liberals left family values be monopolized by the right it did more damage to society than anything that could have come from traditional family concepts despite the superstitious foundation of those concepts. 

As this relates to Saudi Arabia the type of freedom represented by current liberal values has the potential to do more harm than good.  Embracing ethnic diversity is no excuse for stupidity.  Of course we should push for legal equality for the sexes but not at the expense of traditional family values.  Imposing western ideas of freedom can be toxic to other cultures especially if they are represented by the delusional ideas surrounding equality currently in vogue with liberals.  Those ideas confuse their adherents imagine the effect they have on those unable to deal with abstract concepts.

I have more to say about IQ and how it should guide policy but I think the implications are obvious once you accept reality.  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2016 at 20:01
social engineering is another term for manipulating people "for their own good."
It sets a dangerous precedent.  Learned helplessness on one side, big brother
nanny state on the other.

Quotas say that all people are equal, but some people are more equal than others.
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