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The UK in 2214AD

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Apr 2014 at 15:14
The United Kingdom, particularly England, has seen a massive increase in non-English born people over the past 50 to 100 years. Most are divided between Africans (Caribbeans and otherwise), Muslims from the Indian sub-Continent, and more recently, East Europeans.
 
The English culture, having raced to embrace the ridiculous Political Correctness doctrines, has already made way for the incomers by banning certain of Englands historical Christian celebrations, modifying the Language, and using positive discrimination to ensure that the incomers are able to reach the heights of status to the detriment of the host community.
 
Will the UK government take steps to reduce the inflow of migrants?
 
Will they reverse some of the stupid PC decisions that have been implemented?
 
What will it do to ensure that "England is forever English"?
 
What will England look like in 200 years time?
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 10 Apr 2014 at 15:15
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2014 at 16:53
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

The United Kingdom, particularly England, has seen a massive increase in non-English born people over the past 50 to 100 years. Most are divided between Africans (Caribbeans and otherwise), Muslims from the Indian sub-Continent, and more recently, East Europeans.
 
The English culture, having raced to embrace the ridiculous Political Correctness doctrines, has already made way for the incomers by banning certain of Englands historical Christian celebrations, modifying the Language, and using positive discrimination to ensure that the incomers are able to reach the heights of status to the detriment of the host community.
 
Will the UK government take steps to reduce the inflow of migrants?
 
Will they reverse some of the stupid PC decisions that have been implemented?
 
What will it do to ensure that "England is forever English"?
 
What will England look like in 200 years time?
 
 
 
To say anything non trivial is guesswork. Who says it so far will be united? What makes us believe it will be a kingdom?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2014 at 02:43
fantasus: That's why this post is in Alternative History.
 
But by placing it here, I'm not proposing an alternative history, but asking the question that, having regard to the radical changes in the UK, especially England, over the past few decades, what does this suggest for Englands culure in 200 years time.
 
I suggest that, for example, one of three things could transpire:
 
1. One of the existing sub-cultures, if I can call them that, will rise to dominance;
 
2. There will be a re-assertion of the British culture; or
 
3. The status quo will be maintained.
 
Would you are to comment in that vein?
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2014 at 08:02
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

fantasus: That's why this post is in Alternative History.
 
But by placing it here, I'm not proposing an alternative history, but asking the question that, having regard to the radical changes in the UK, especially England, over the past few decades, what does this suggest for Englands culure in 200 years time.
 
I suggest that, for example, one of three things could transpire:
 
1. One of the existing sub-cultures, if I can call them that, will rise to dominance;
 
2. There will be a re-assertion of the British culture; or
 
3. The status quo will be maintained.
 
Would you are to comment in that vein?
The least we should expect is the continuation of current trends, so far in the future. I personally would think the "english" and "England" still will make sense, but very different "England" from  todays. Probably more a part of a bigger "community", but still with the descendants of todays english people as "main body", like for other european countries. 
But then I admit those expectations are not failproof or necessarily more right than anybody elses. We cannort even be sure "Civilizations" or "humanitys" future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2014 at 12:55
Quote The United Kingdom, particularly England, has seen a massive increase in non-English born people over the past 50 to 100 years. Most are divided between Africans (Caribbeans and otherwise), Muslims from the Indian sub-Continent, and more recently, East Europeans.

Some of this is circumstantial, though I must confess, walking along my local high street english has become a rarely heard language. Invariably it's polish or other slavic tongue. As it happens I've worked with east europeans and found them to be generally a friendly cooperative lot. Asians can be a bit different. A few are very sociable, others keep to themselves.
 
Quote The English culture, having raced to embrace the ridiculous Political Correctness doctrines, has already made way for the incomers by banning certain of Englands historical Christian celebrations, modifying the Language, and using positive discrimination to ensure that the incomers are able to reach the heights of status to the detriment of the host community.

There have also been moves to underpin tradition too. Events with specific properties now considered not safe under health & safety rulings have been suppressed, whereas some social activities and events are supported and encouraged. A lot depends on how the local community and council regard multiculturalism. There have been a few incidents where 'britishness' has been pushed aside in favour of global cultural initiatives (spread all over the newspaper when it happens) but then don't forget that immigrants must now pass a test on their knowledge of British culture.
 
Quote Will the UK government take steps to reduce the inflow of migrants?

Depends. Economic and social pressures might create a need for this, or perhaps a politician with such views encourages society to support them, but it will generally continue to some degree, given British birthrate has fallen, that foreigners will do the dirty jobs the British won't touch, and that continued membership of the EU rather enforces the idea of continued immigration.
 
Quote Will they reverse some of the stupid PC decisions that have been implemented?

Yes, and create new ones in their place.
 
Quote What will it do to ensure that "England is forever English"?

The problem here is that right wing groups, such as the British National Party, the English Defence League, and the Christian Patrol have grabbed hold of patriotic sentiment and won't let go. Fascism has never been popular in England but there is likely to be a continued struggle between mainstream centrist politics and right wing activisim on the question of englishness.
 
Quote What will England look like in 200 years time?

Less rural. A whole new set of 'planned towns' and their chaotic spiralling street systems, a spread of suburban or 'village' settlement, and industrial estates with demarcted boundaries of industiral use will be more common, dotted around everywhere to provide scaleable premises, local employment, and enterprise opportunity. Country parks will be more common than green fields. Forests will be more prevalent - they're already being planted - both as ecologically sound initiatives, and as communal assets. There will be one or two new major airports by then, if not more.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2014 at 02:45
So, all in all, the outlook for England isn't all that bright.
 
I'm not racist, but I foster the belief that incomers should do more to adopt the culture of their host country, but England, in many cases, seems to have done the reverse.
 
I have no time for political correctness, just common decency respect for others, and I abhor those far right wing racist groups that have sprung up in the UK and the USA, for example. But one can see why people protest at the erosion of their culture to the benefit of the incomers cultures. 
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2014 at 04:28
Those that move can loose their previous affiliations surprisingly fast. The younger generation will often take on the culture of the mainstream, and indeed, will shirk off that of their parents, in the traditional acts of youthful defiance we see with most generations.

I remember being in a boat on the ocean with some aboriginal Canadians recently, those from a small settlement. They powered by some white city folks in ocean kayaks. They scoffed at such frivolity, paddling and living close to nature, and where impatient to get home, crack open a few beers, and watch the hockey game. The circle was complete.

England will no doubt change, as it has continually through history, but I doubt it will be submerged. In fact, I think the future is quite bright, as various cultures gravitate to a more liberal area of the globe, and make what is there more cosmopolitan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2014 at 02:59
Captain:
But the fact is that in the case of the UK, the young may not be losing their previous affiliations as quickly as one may suppose. Yes, they're losing many of the family based aspects, such as respect for the father as head of the family, but studies have shown that first and second generations suffer an identity crisis, which in some cases, steers them into gangs of similar young people.
 
Every country changes over a period of time, but when incomers start to have an increasingly stronger influence over the host countrys culture, it doesn't bode well.
 
 
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2014 at 12:36
Quote Those that move can loose their previous affiliations surprisingly fast.

No, they don't, they retain previous identities for generations and sometimes for considerably long periods of time.

Quote So, all in all, the outlook for England isn't all that bright.

Some people believe that. England is going to be a less english place in the future, certainly, but it doesn't have to be all that bad.

Quote I'm not racist, but I foster the belief that incomers should do more to adopt the culture of their host country, but England, in many cases, seems to have done the reverse.

The balace has gobne one way and the other, and in all probability will continue to do so. England has become a more partitioned society but then we're somewhat hamstrung by multiculturalism. Unlike the US, which is effectively a country of immigrants (meaning no offence to native populations), Britain is a country that cannot insist on adoption of British values for fear of accusations of racism or fascism.

Quote But one can see why people protest at the erosion of their culture to the benefit of the incomers cultures.

Those people tend to be seen as extremists in Britain. Enoch Powell was infamous for his comments on immigration - it more or less killed his political career, but while the majority of Britons have no particular problem with foreigners living here, the continued issues with employment and the availability of immigrants who work for much less, especially in a period of economic strain, has caused some general frustration. I'm not immune to that - as I well know, getting a job from an agency is harder now because they have so many disposable labourers to chose from.

There are cases that cause annoyance, such as banning native flags for fear of upsetting ethnic populations, but this is often individual zealousy from petty officials rather than any national policy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2014 at 17:39
Britain is dead. RIP. There is no more British people in Britain anymore, but a cocktail or tuti-fruti of foreigners, that play drums and rap rather than performing Haendel. King Arthur would be turning in its tumb. I hope they realize they are already dead, and leave the Falklands to Argentinians. Let's see when the first Jamaican put on its head the British crown, when James Bond is played by Eddie Murphy and when the Anglican church is replaced by Voodoo or other Yoruba cults.

Let's play the Funeral of Queen Mary, to mark the passing away of Britain.





Edited by pinguin - 13 Apr 2014 at 17:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2014 at 20:54
This is a big question, and is only likely to get bigger with time. The third world is growing, the first is stagnant, and global warming problems and general poverty may force many more towards the developed countries. 

How many immigrants can a region accept, before it feels overwhelmed? Certainly there is a limit. On the other hand, locking the gates, and saying no tedious foreigners please, Japanese style, also creates problems. Japan for example has an aging population, and is going to face severe problems in dealing with that, and they will only be exacerbated by keeping out immigrants.

It is a natural tendency for those who feel under stress to group together, in categories they can relate to. Race and ethnicity are of course obvious....but not inevitable. Those sort of indentifyers can fall away to an amazing degree, if all feel on the same team. They often do not, for psychological and economic reasons. Those that feel excluded, for valid reasons or not, tend to be resentful to the majority, and engage in anti-social activities. Again, this isn't  only the province of immigrants. The Hell's Angels bike club in North America, or the skinheads in the UK for example, are full of white Anglo-Saxon males, but their alienation is similar.

Fostering inclusion is largely a political and social issue, and can be fairly successful. There is still a debate between magic and science for example (even on these pages) and that is an easy way for some to force divisions on society. Education in this area should be mandatory, IMO. 

One of the best hopes for intelligent discourse in the US today is, for example, a black man, son of a foreign immigrant from Kenya. Certainly more hope here, than in the good 'ol boys down in Tennessee, who may claim white British ancestry back to William the Conqueror.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2014 at 23:24
The "third" world is not growing, please, get informed. Not India, south East Asia or Latin American are growing in population by any substantial means. In fact, those regions are getting older already.

What is growing is Saharan Africa and only tropical Africa! There is where people is crazy breeding at an exponential scale, no matter they don't have resources to feed themselves. They seem to want to conquer the world by breeding, giving they don't have another way to do so.

So, please stop the political correct tendency of euphemisms. The black people from South Saharan Africa is out-breeding the rest of the world; and only them are in that stand. Not the so called "Third World" as a whole. At least, we should be honest in establishing who is who.

And please don't talk about "Third World", given the fact in that hypothetical region there are regions that are ten or twentieth times richer than Sub-Saharan Africa. Yes, I know "Third World" is a label loved in Canada... forgetting many people in that country live in Third World standards Confused


Edited by pinguin - 13 Apr 2014 at 23:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 00:29
Oh dear penguin, this is deja vu all over again. You see an entire continent full of tuti-frutis, and worse. It is true that the third world has evolved, with some areas pulling ahead, and others getting worse, but the term is sufficient for the context of this discussion. Generally speaking, rapid population growth is occurring in developing countries, and populations are slow growing, or stagnant in the more developed. Population is still a big problem across much of Africa, south and south east Asia. Places like Egypt, Pakistan, or Bangladesh are now exploring the limits of environmental carrying capacity.

This means one more urgent factor in the question of immigration and movements of people in our ever smaller world. I don't have any easy answers here, but am just saying that the movements of people about the world in the near future will be no trivial matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 03:20
The Captain wrote:
"This means one more urgent factor in the question of immigration and movements of people in our ever smaller world. I don't have any easy answers here, but am just saying that the movements of people about the world in the near future will be no trivial matter."
 
I agree with you. There are some very well made points posted by Caldrail etc. which indicate quite clearly to me that, for example, the Europeans, must act now to limit the numbers of people moving through their borders or the wealthier countries are going to be swamped.
 
I agree that the people in Europe most violently opposed to these incomers are the White Supremacist type groups, and I don't agree with their racist policies. But if nothing is done now, the Brixton Riots could become just a boys night out compared to the trouble that is fomenting only just below the surface.
 
 
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 13:08
Quote Britain is dead. RIP. There is no more British people in Britain anymore, but a cocktail or tuti-fruti of foreigners, that play drums and rap rather than performing Haendel.

Well thanks for that Pinguin, but according to my doctor, I'm still alive and well. You nay also infer from this answer that I post therefore I exist.

Of course there are plenty of British people. As I type this, there's a library full of them, chewing bubblegum, moaning about the football results, enquiring about how to research their ancestors, and complaining about my military surplus trousers.

We're a mongrel species anyway, having had infusions of blood over the centuries from pretty much everywhere, so quite what you imagine British is, is probably wrong to begin with. Oh and by the way, I used to play drums for a living. The British do that occaisionally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2014 at 01:57
"I post therefore I exist" .... That phrase is superb. For writing on brass.
And sure, I made an exaggerate claim.  I expect European native people will become a minority in theirs own land some day, in the say way my humiliated Native Americans were once. History has many turns, and I believe in the long term there is a sort of justice on it.

For instance, every Empire that tries to conquer the world ends invaded by the former colonial cheap labor LOL. Anyways, nobody knows the future for sure.


Edited by pinguin - 15 Apr 2014 at 02:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2014 at 02:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

"I post therefore I exist" .... That phrase is superb. For writing on brass.

M. Penguin, you are waxing philosophical, perhaps as a consequence of your new found fame as an author. 

I still predict however, a massive dislocation and re-thinking of the distribution of race and nations about the earth. Allow one small example. The neighborhood where your captain grew up (well, some say I'm not there yet, but chronologically certainly) used to be a bastion of hot beef sandwiches, cups of tea, and union jacks. A big controversy there today is whether English should be mandatory on the signs of shopkeepers, a great many of which are in Mandarin, in keeping with the population of this Vancouver suburb. Are they raging, and leaving bombs in bus stations? Nope. Young people there today don't care. They eat noodles and stir fried broccoli, intermarry, and get on with their lives. This is the way the world is going to go, if you ask me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2014 at 02:39
Well, we, the mongrels south of the border, tend to be a little bit more conservative in this respect. We build our pyramids where everyone has its place. So, people that don't fit well do the domestic shores, and the "old bloods" rule Confused ... I guess. In any case, I didn't invent the system.

But, as far as I know, the future of mankind will be a matter of genetic engineering and the laws of offer and demand. So I personally don't care much about it.


Edited by pinguin - 15 Apr 2014 at 02:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2014 at 07:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

"I post therefore I exist" .... That phrase is superb. For writing on brass.
And sure, I made an exaggerate claim.  I expect European native people will become a minority in theirs own land some day, in the say way my humiliated Native Americans were once. History has many turns, and I believe in the long term there is a sort of justice on it.

For instance, every Empire that tries to conquer the world ends invaded by the former colonial cheap labor LOL. Anyways, nobody knows the future for sure.
 
 
Are there in fact any indigenous European people still alive in Europe?
 
In England, if they exist, they would be Picts or Brythonic people, and I don't know of any still existing, do you?
 
 
 
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2014 at 10:18
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

"I post therefore I exist" .... That phrase is superb. For writing on brass.
And sure, I made an exaggerate claim.  I expect European native people will become a minority in theirs own land some day, in the say way my humiliated Native Americans were once. History has many turns, and I believe in the long term there is a sort of justice on it.

For instance, every Empire that tries to conquer the world ends invaded by the former colonial cheap labor LOL. Anyways, nobody knows the future for sure.
 
 
Are there in fact any indigenous European people still alive in Europe?
 
In England, if they exist, they would be Picts or Brythonic people, and I don't know of any still existing, do you?
 
 
 
Ultimately humans probably descends from Africa, but the ancestors of the majority of Europeans were for the most part Europeans themselves even long before the first written history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2014 at 16:55
I'm looking at the immigration issue from an American, rather than a British, perspective, but many of the issues are the same.

Immigrants are coming mainly in search of jobs. Once here, many take advantage of generous welfare benefits, but for most, the primary goal is jobs. The commonplace response is that the immigrants do the low-paid, unskilled, dridgery jobs that the native-born people prefer not to do. And this does seem to be mostly true.

But I think the main reason why the native-born population rejects these jobs is because of the low, minimum-wage pay, which is barely subsistence level, and provides no opportunity to ever own a home and yard. College education, and even automobile ownership are limited, too. There's no benefits (health-insurance, sickleave, or annual vacation).  If the wages for these unskilled, drudgery jobs was raised to the level where they could have a decent living, and benefits were provided,  even though it required hard work, I think most of the  native-born population would be willing  to do these jobs, as an alternative to unemployment. Everyone prefers to have an interesting, fulfilling job, but the reality is that the unskilled jobs are necessary, too. Someone has to do the drudgery. But even though unskilled, they still deserve the chance to earn a decent living.

It's pretty commonplace to say that everyone has an opportunity for advancement, but this isn't really true, there just aren't enough skilled, interesting jobs to go around, and the people doing the drudgery work still deserve a chance to earn a decent living, even if there's no chance of advancement to a more skilled job. I think that higher wages and benefits would motivate the native-born population to do these jobs, just as they did years ago, before immigration became commonplace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2014 at 02:35
Regardless of which angle you look at it, the current levels of migration to the western European countries, for example, simply cannot be sustained.
 
The residents of the countries effected will not tolerate paying higher taxes in order to support the incomers for very long. There are issues of employment, health, housing and education to look at, and how these services will be provided.
 
All of this without consideration of the cultural issues involved.
 
In 200 years time, will the UK culture be clearly the dominant one, as it should be, or will it be overrun by the incomers?
 
There are major issues to be considered by the comparatively wealthier Western European countries, and top of the list will be, imo, whether nor not to close the borders.
 
 
 
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2014 at 15:04
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
Are there in fact any indigenous European people still alive in Europe?
 
In England, if they exist, they would be Picts or Brythonic people, and I don't know of any still existing, do you?
 


Certainly. Most population with roots before the 19th century is native to Europe. Besides, there are still many populations there that speak old European languages like Celt (Irish, Welsh). Even more, in Europe there are still populations that speak language from the times before the Indoeuropean invasions! Like Basque in Spain, for instance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2014 at 02:41
Captain wrote:"Oh dear penguin, this is deja vu all over again."
 
Did you mean this?
 
But I agree, the bird's posts do have a sort of similarity in them, don't they?Big smile
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2014 at 14:47
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

Immigrants are coming mainly in search of jobs. Once here, many take advantage of generous welfare benefits, but for most, the primary goal is jobs.

Due to recent concerns with standards of living and national economic issues, benefits are harder to qualify for and maintain. Immigrants can no longer claim them simply by turning up.

Quote But I think the main reason why the native-born population rejects these jobs is because of the low, minimum-wage pay, which is barely subsistence level, and provides no opportunity to ever own a home and yard.

This is of course a reflection of American society and values, whereas in Britain home ownership is a daunting prospect and has been for a very long time. Rental properties are now becoming expensive as a result. The costs of living have recently reduced our subsistence level somewhat (I had to cancel my gas heating supply this last winter because costs rose dramatically). With respect to wages, given the National Minimum Wage and other employment legislation, the subsistence levels as defined in the United States are different than here.

Quote I think most of the  native-born population would be willing  to do these jobs, as an alternative to unemployment.

Have you met the British? I grant you that many of us are willing to earn our keep, but there are a considerable number of all social classes who assume that society is there to house and feed them.

Quote I think that higher wages and benefits would motivate the native-born population to do these jobs, just as they did years ago, before immigration became commonplace.

Up to a point. In fact, twenty years ago I used to earn more for manual warehousing work than I would get now. Even some managerial vacancies offer less. Compare that to the substantial rises in costs of living experienced in Britain since then - my food bill is between two or three times what it was - and perhaps you can see why our economy is struggling to right itself.

The situation is not all that simple either, as employment practises in Britain are not helping the majority. Employment agencies now have contracts for just about every lower paid role going which means there's an additional obstacle to getting them. They're not there to find me a permanent job - they exist to profit from providing a company with disposable labour as a convenience, for which immigrant populations are actually better placed in many cases.

Edited by caldrail - 21 Apr 2014 at 14:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2014 at 04:02
Caldrail:
I understand what you're getting at and I agree.
 
There is a vast difference between those who want to work but can't find a job, to those who are long term unemployed, and reckon the world owes them!
 
It must be disheartening for the British who want to work seeing incomers wiling to work for less getting the jobs.
 
But this is just the point. As a cultural issue, in 200 years time will the incomers monopolise the lower paid jobs, to the exclusion of the locals? As things currently stand, I suggest that it's a strong possibility unless the government makes changes to the immigration laws, as well as to the welfare system.
 
As I said before, in many countries, the level of immigration, with all of its influences, is simply not sustainable.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2014 at 16:32
Actually this issue is in the news over here because Mr Farage of the UKIP has directly accused immigrants of coming here to steal our jobs on posters. That's getting a bit right wing for me. In general unemployed people aren't particularly annoyed over the issue, since most of us are fairly amiable and get along with foreigners just fine. There's far more reasons for failure to find work than immigrants, who actually only compete within narrow work genres, so our frustration has more to do with the number of vacancies, suitability, and adverse opinion from employers (and also the pressure from officialdom to find work, especially now that benefits have been cut to help pay off the national debt, because it seems that the honest claimant is the one that suffers the most. The crafty ones still get far more). Britain has been a multicultural island for some time now and it shows, despite the activities of right wing activists and a few islamic hotheads.

Is immigration sustainable? It could be. Bear in mind that the reasons we allow so many in has been because we don't have enough skilled workers to fill vacancies, such as the health industry particularly (not known for being a well paid profession in Britain), and the rather curious situation of politicians claiming that birthrates are dropping, Britain's population getting smaller, and yet there's a desperate need to plaster the english countryside with new villages everywhere... Strange...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2014 at 02:53
caldrail:
But do the immigrants you refer to have any of the skills that the UK needs, or are they financial immigrants qualified only for menial labour?
 
I don't really think that the EU open borders policy helps much.
 
As for the declining population versus the building of new villages, are the occupants English moving out of the cities or are they incomers?
 
 
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2014 at 13:48
I don't have any figures for this question. Certainly the health industry in Britain imports a large number of qualified immigrants seeking work her. There are two doctors of foreign origin at my surgery - no biggie. Their origin really doesn't matter. In fact, one of the doctors was more concerned that she was female than from the Indian subcontinent. Again. No biggie. Well most of me anyway.

There's a sizeable number of immigrants who don't compete for jobs - they start their own businesses, and some, such as fast food, convenience stores, or internet cafes, I avail myself of. In general they do good service to the community and for the most part are actually more polite and considerate than native shop keepers.

It is true that at the lowest level of manual labour there is competition, but then, they're prepared to stand outside a job agency all day in the hope work turns up - you won't find the British doing that. We rely on telephone and internet enquiries, so whilst they pick up more of the short term immediate vacancies, the native Britons still retain a market share of longer term work and often build better relationships with employers on that basis. The value of immigrant labour is variable. Some are very hard working and deserve to be employed, others are clearly not going to lift a finger unless the boss is looking.

However I should point out that immigration is not a constant pressure. Whereas Romanian and Bulgarians have been coming to our shores with the relaxation of regulations, numbers of Poles and other east europeans have been leaving because they aren't making the profit they once did, or rather ironically, because they have to compete with other immigrants for their sector of the employment marketplace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2014 at 03:24

caldrail:

So the picture is not quite as dark as I thought it was.
 
Good.
I often wonder why I try.
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