| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The un-UN
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


The un-UN

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The un-UN
    Posted: 17 Jul 2017 at 12:24
I don't see any reason for the UN to change.  And if it was going to change, I don't know enough about international politics to suggest how it should change.  And for that matter, I don't really understand how the UN works already.  But, I do think it works, not perfectly, but I am not in a rush to run out and get "new, improved UN 2.0".  Such things are rarely, if ever, a true improvement.

The only suggestion I know of is revision of the Security Council, to include like, Brazil, India, Japan, Germany.  But if you think the Security Council is cumbersome now, imagine more members, and frankly, adding members is going to dilute those on it already.  I don't expect anybody on it to give up power.

So to "answer" your question, the new should like the old, like it has been since it was founded.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  It works well enough for me, as far as I understand it.  But, if you want to explain how it should be fixed, not with polemics but constructive criticism, criticism that does not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, feel free to do so.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 19:15
Frank

In an early post, I asked you for your opinion on what form a new look UN should take.

You've succesfully evaded the question, until now anyway, how about an answer?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2017 at 11:04
Just for that, I am not going to teach you the secret handshake:P

Yeah, you're right, what would I know having spent 10 years of my life in Boy Scouts of America, both as a youth, and an adult leader.  I am an Eagle Scout, the highest award in Boy Scouts, and elected to Order of the Arrow, what would I know about Boy Scout of America compared to some retiree in Tasmania, Australia.
I said in some ways it is like a conspiracy.  In other ways not.  In any case, I don't consider conspiracy to always be something bad, which is probably something you assume.  Anyways, we originally were talking about the UN, which also is not a conspiracy, but I am sure a lot of conspiracies go through the organization.  Big organizations are like the water that conspiracies swim in.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2017 at 12:32
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Yes, and at Vito Corleone's birthday party you can come, pay your respect and ask him for a favor, if needed.  But someday, you may be asked to do a favor in return.  It is like Bud Fox giving Cuban cigars to Gordon Gekko for Gekko's Birthday, as a way to get his foot in the door.  There is some truth to that, people are not that far away from such basic, fundamental associations even if they participate in the Bildenburg's or the UN, or the Boy Scouts of America.  Is Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts an international conspiracy?  In some ways, no, maybe not international, but in other ways, yes.  There are connections between the military and Boy Scouts, not very substantial but they're there, and the President of the United States is the honorary grand poo-ba, or something like that. 

Which land do you lve in? It certainly isn't reality. You really need to get out more I think, Boy Scouts conspiracies now, what next, you've flipped my old son!
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2017 at 08:48
Yes, and at Vito Corleone's birthday party you can come, pay your respect and ask him for a favor, if needed.  But someday, you may be asked to do a favor in return.  It is like Bud Fox giving Cuban cigars to Gordon Gekko for Gekko's Birthday, as a way to get his foot in the door.  There is some truth to that, people are not that far away from such basic, fundamental associations even if they participate in the Bildenburg's or the UN, or the Boy Scouts of America.  Is Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts an international conspiracy?  In some ways, no, maybe not international, but in other ways, yes.  There are connections between the military and Boy Scouts, not very substantial but they're there, and the President of the United States is the honorary grand poo-ba, or something like that. 
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 18:08
I say it's more like the mafia. Individual thugs may have their own side game but unless the godfather gives his blessing, well you know horses head in your bed.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 10:45
You asked "why meet if they are not making agreements or colluding?"  I said birthday parties.

Yes, colluding in a market to keep prices high, is an example of colluding.  Creating a monopoly or a virtual monopoly is a conspiracy.  I am sure that there are conspiracies, many conspiracies, all going different directions.  What I don't think there is, is an overarching conspiracy that explains Everything.

But local politicians buy up property to take advantage of zoning (that they themselves create), they also make sure their streets don't go through, thus preventing traffic in front of their house (but making the road system more difficult for everyone else).  There are all kinds of conspiracy on the local and small scale, and probably bigger scale as well.  But competing conspiracies, bumping into each other without necessarily knowing who else is there.  And most of those conspiracies are for purposes of greed or family or inflated egos.

I think President Trump is a perfect example of how conspiracies work, he is there to scratch his back, feed his ego and his pocketbook as well.  He is not a billionaire right now, but if he doesn't get there it will only be because he wasn't able to steal enough.  t didn't need to go to college to see what is clear as day, nor did I need to go to college to know that _some_ people are in denial about the damage that Trump is doing.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 13:02
Quote  As Far As I Know...your parents wasted their money sending you to college Clap

Handshake
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 12:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

birthday parties?
What are you talking about?

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 maybe they're swapping spit in the shower?  Yes, I take the Bildenberg group lightly, because I cannot do anything about it, nor is it even clear that something should be done.  Could they be "colluding," maybe, but for what?  What does it mean "to collude"?
[/QUOTE]

colluded to keep prices high .
Like when you have an invasive, plentiful species such as giant red crabs that everyone still pays top dollar for because the markets collude to keep prices high among themselves.  


Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have some idea of what it means when two companies collude in order to price-fix the price of widget in a market. 
 I am not sure it is "meaningful" to talk about collusion, unless one is talking about what the (sketchy, nefarious) purpose of such collusion is for.

It's a discussion forum. If it's not meaningful why did you respond?

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 I think that such groups generally want to preserve the status quo, and maybe progress it a little.  Preserving and progressing the status quo for them does include preserving and furthering their own interests.  But most of what they want is stability.  And most of what we need in society is stability.  Change is okay, as long as it is below the level of chaos.  I do worry that some day, the only change that will be allowed is managed change, in other words, superficial.

You have managed to say absolutely nothing. Tuition wasted.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Please explain abbreviations, I know what AFLACK is, I don't know what AFAIK is.  (aflack is insurance sold by a duck on TV). 

As Far As I Know...your parents wasted their money sending you to college Clap


Edited by Vanuatu - 29 Jun 2017 at 12:27
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 08:06
birthday parties?  maybe they're swapping spit in the shower?  Yes, I take the Bildenberg group lightly, because I cannot do anything about it, nor is it even clear that something should be done.  Could they be "colluding," maybe, but for what?  What does it mean "to collude"?  I have some idea of what it means when two companies collude in order to price-fix the price of widget in a market.  I am not sure it is "meaningful" to talk about collusion, unless one is talking about what the (sketchy, nefarious) purpose of such collusion is for.  I think that such groups generally want to preserve the status quo, and maybe progress it a little.  Preserving and progressing the status quo for them does include preserving and furthering their own interests.  But most of what they want is stability.  And most of what we need in society is stability.  Change is okay, as long as it is below the level of chaos.  I do worry that some day, the only change that will be allowed is managed change, in other words, superficial.

Please explain abbreviations, I know what AFLACK is, I don't know what AFAIK is.  (aflack is insurance sold by a duck on TV). 
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 07:54
birthday parties?  maybe they're swapping spit in the shower?  Yes, I take the Bildenberg group lightly, because I cannot do anything about it, nor is it even clear that something should be done.  Could they be "colluding," maybe, but for what?  What does it mean "to collude"?  I have some idea of what it means when two companies collude in order to price-fix the price of widget in a market.  I am not sure it is "meaningful" to talk about collusion, unless one is talking about what the (sketchy, nefarious) purpose of such collusion is for.  I think that such groups generally want to preserve the status quo, and maybe progress it a little.  Preserving and progressing the status quo for them does include preserving and furthering their own interests.  But most of what they want is stability.  And most of what we need in society is stability.  Change is okay, as long as it is below the level of chaos.  I do worry that some day, the only change that will be allowed is managed change, in other words, superficial.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 01:13
Obviously people are running the world and it's not a democratic process. Why meet if they are not making agreements and colluding?
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2017 at 01:48
Franciscosan
You appear to take the idea of groups such as the Bilderbegs with a grain of salt. 

Read the below list, which has AFAIK, has never been denied.
Quote

Bilderberg Group

 Attendees List

The only thing more ominous for the world than a Fed raising interest rates is a Bilderberg Group meeting. The concentration of politicians and business leaders has meant the organisation, founded at the Bilderberg Hotel near Arnhem in 1954, has faced accusations of secrecy. Meetings take place behind closed doors, with a ban on journalists. As the 2014 Bilderberg meeting in Copenhagen, Denmark is taking place amidst a climate of panic for many of the 120 globalists set to attend the secretive confab, with Russia’s intransigence on the crisis in Ukraine and the anti-EU revolution sweeping Europe posing a serious threat to the unipolar world order Bilderberg spent over 60 years helping to build. Current list of Participants (source):

Chairman

  • FRA Castries, Henri de Chairman and CEO, AXA Group

Attendees

  • DEU Achleitner, Paul M. Chairman of the Supervisory Board, Deutsche Bank AG
  • DEU Ackermann, Josef Former CEO, Deutsche Bank AG
  • GBR Agius, Marcus Non-Executive Chairman, PA Consulting Group
  • FIN Alahuhta, Matti Member of the Board, KONE; Chairman, Aalto University Foundation
  • GBR Alexander, Helen Chairman, UBM plc
  • USA Alexander, Keith B. Former Comdr, U.S. Cyber Command; Former Director, NSA
  • USA Altman, Roger C. Executive Chairman, Evercore
  • FIN Apunen, Matti Director, Finnish Business and Policy Forum EVA
  • DEU Asmussen, Jörg State Secretary of Labour and Social Affairs
  • HUN Bajnai, Gordon Former Prime Minister; Party Leader, Together 2014
  • GBR Balls, Edward M. Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer
  • PRT Balsem£o, Francisco Pinto Chairman, Impresa SGPS
  • FRA Baroin, François Member of Parliament (UMP); Mayor of Troyes
  • FRA Baverez, Nicolas Partner, Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP
  • USA Berggruen, Nicolas Chairman, Berggruen Institute on Governance
  • ITA Bernabè, Franco Chairman, FB Group SRL
  • DNK Besenbacher, Flemming Chairman, The Carlsberg Group
  • NLD Beurden, Ben van CEO, Royal Dutch Shell plc
  • SWE Bildt, Carl Minister for Foreign Affairs
  • NOR Brandtzæg, Svein Richard President and CEO, Norsk Hydro ASA
  • INT Breedlove, Philip M. Supreme Allied Commander Europe
  • AUT Bronner, Oscar Publisher, Der STANDARD Verlagsgesellschaft m.b.H.
  • SWE Buskhe, Håkan President and CEO, Saab AB
  • TUR Çandar, Cengiz Senior Columnist, Al Monitor and Radikal
  • ESP Cebrián, Juan Luis Executive Chairman, Grupo PRISA
  • FRA Chalendar, Pierre-André de Chairman and CEO, Saint-Gobain
  • CAN Clark, W. Edmund Group President and CEO, TD Bank Group
  • INT Coeuré, Benoît Member of the Executive Board, European Central Bank
  • IRL Coveney, Simon Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine
  • GBR Cowper-Coles, Sherard Senior Adviser to the Group Chairman, HSBC Holdings plc
  • BEL Davignon, Etienne Minister of State
  • USA Donilon, Thomas E. Senior Partner, O’Melveny and Myers; Former U.S. NSA
  • DEU Döpfner, Mathias CEO, Axel Springer SE
  • GBR Dudley, Robert Group Chief Executive, BP plc
  • FIN Ehrnrooth, Henrik Chairman, Caverion Corporation, Otava and Pöyry PLC
  • ITA Elkann, John Chairman, Fiat S.p.A.
  • DEU Enders, Thomas CEO, Airbus Group
  • DNK Federspiel, Ulrik Executive Vice President, Haldor Topsøe A/S
  • USA Feldstein, Martin S. Professor of Economics, Harvard University; President Emeritus, NBER
  • CAN Ferguson, Brian President and CEO, Cenovus Energy Inc.
  • GBR Flint, Douglas J. Group Chairman, HSBC Holdings plc
  • ESP García-Margallo, José Manuel Minister of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation
  • USA Gfoeller, Michael Independent Consultant
  • TUR Göle, Nilüfer Professor of Sociology, École des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales
  • USA Greenberg, Evan G. Chairman and CEO, ACE Group
  • GBR Greening, Justine Secretary of State for International Development
  • NLD Halberstadt, Victor Professor of Economics, Leiden University
  • USA Hockfield, Susan President Emerita, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
  • NOR Høegh, Leif O. Chairman, Höegh Autoliners AS
  • NOR Høegh, Westye Senior Advisor, Höegh Autoliners AS
  • USA Hoffman, Reid Co-Founder and Executive Chairman, LinkedIn
  • CHN Huang, Yiping Professor of Economics, National School of Development, Peking University
  • USA Jackson, Shirley Ann President, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
  • USA Jacobs, Kenneth M. Chairman and CEO, Lazard
  • USA Johnson, James A. Chairman, Johnson Capital Partners
  • USA Karp, Alex CEO, Palantir Technologies
  • USA Katz, Bruce J. Vice President and Co-Director, The Brookings Institution
  • CAN Kenney, Jason T. Minister of Employment and Social Development
  • GBR Kerr, John Deputy Chairman, Scottish Power
  • USA Kissinger, Henry A. Chairman, Kissinger Associates, Inc.
  • USA Kleinfeld, Klaus Chairman and CEO, Alcoa
  • TUR Koç, Mustafa Chairman, Koç Holding A.S.
  • DNK Kragh, Steffen President and CEO, Egmont
  • USA Kravis, Henry R. Co-Chairman and Co-CEO, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co.
  • USA Kravis, Marie-Josée Senior Fellow and Vice Chair, Hudson Institute
  • CHE Kudelski, André Chairman and CEO, Kudelski Group
  • INT Lagarde, Christine Managing Director, International Monetary Fund
  • BEL Leysen, Thomas Chairman of the Board of Directors, KBC Group
  • USA Li, Cheng Director, John L.Thornton China Center,The Brookings Institution
  • SWE Lifvendahl, Tove Political Editor in Chief, Svenska Dagbladet
  • CHN Liu, He Minister, Office of the Central Leading Group on Financial and Economic Affairs
  • PRT Macedo, Paulo Minister of Health
  • FRA Macron, Emmanuel Deputy Secretary General of the Presidency
  • ITA Maggioni, Monica Editor-in-Chief, Rainews24, RAI TV
  • GBR Mandelson, Peter Chairman, Global Counsel LLP
  • USA McAfee, Andrew Principal Research Scientist, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
  • PRT Medeiros, Inês de Member of Parliament, Socialist Party
  • GBR Micklethwait, John Editor-in-Chief, The Economist
  • GRC Mitsotaki, Alexandra Chair, ActionAid Hellas
  • ITA Monti, Mario Senator-for-life; President, Bocconi University
  • USA Mundie, Craig J. Senior Advisor to the CEO, Microsoft Corporation
  • CAN Munroe-Blum, Heather Professor of Medicine,, McGill University
  • USA Murray, Charles A. W.H. Brady Scholar, American Enterprise for Public Policy Research
  • NLD Netherlands, H.R.H. Princess Beatrix of the
  • ESP Nin Génova, Juan María Deputy Chairman and CEO, CaixaBank
  • FRA Nougayrède, Natalie Director and Executive Editor, Le Monde
  • DNK Olesen, Søren-Peter Professor; Member of the Board of Directors, The Carlsberg Foundation
  • FIN Ollila, Jorma Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell, plc; Chairman, Outokumpu Plc
  • TUR Oran, Umut Deputy Chairman, Republican People’s Party (CHP)
  • GBR Osborne, George Chancellor of the Exchequer
  • FRA Pellerin, Fleur State Secretary for Foreign Trade
  • USA Perle, Richard N. Resident Fellow, American Enterprise Institute
  • USA Petraeus, David H. Chairman, KKR Global Institute
  • CAN Poloz, Stephen S. Governor, Bank of Canada
  • INT Rasmussen, Anders Fogh Secretary General, NATO
  • DNK Rasmussen, Jørgen Huno Chairman of the Board of Trustees, The Lundbeck Foundation
  • INT Reding, Viviane Vice President and Commissioner for Justice,European Commission
  • USA Reed, Kasim Mayor of Atlanta
  • CAN Reisman, Heather M. Chair and CEO, Indigo Books & Music Inc.
  • NOR Reiten, Eivind Chairman, Klaveness Marine Holding AS
  • DEU Röttgen, Norbert Chairman, Foreign Affairs Committee, German Bundestag
  • USA Rubin, Robert E. Co-Chair, Council For'n Rel'ns; Former Secretary of the Treasury
  • USA Rumer, Eugene Senior Associate and Director, Russia Carnegie Endowment for Intnl Peace
  • NOR Rynning-Tønnesen, Christian President and CEO, Statkraft AS
  • NLD Samsom, Diederik M. Parliamentary Leader PvdA (Labour Party)
  • GBR Sawers, John Chief, Secret Intelligence Service
  • NLD Scheffer, Paul J. Author; Professor of European Studies, Tilburg University
  • NLD Schippers, Edith Minister of Health, Welfare and Sport
  • USA Schmidt, Eric E. Executive Chairman, Google Inc.
  • AUT Scholten, Rudolf CEO, Oesterreichische Kontrollbank AG
  • USA Shih, Clara CEO and Founder, Hearsay Social
  • FIN Siilasmaa, Risto K. Chairman of the Board of Directors and Interim CEO, Nokia Corporation
  • ESP Spain, H.M. the Queen of
  • USA Spence, A. Michael Professor of Economics, New York University
  • FIN Stadigh, Kari President and CEO, Sampo plc
  • USA Summers, Lawrence H. Charles W. Eliot University Professor, Harvard University
  • IRL Sutherland, Peter D. Chairman, Goldman Sachs International;
  • SWE Svanberg, Carl-Henric Chairman, Volvo AB and BP plc
  • TUR Taftal?, A. Ümit Member of the Board, Suna and Inan Kiraç Foundation
  • USA Thiel, Peter A. President, Thiel Capital
  • DNK Topsøe, Henrik Chairman, Haldor Topsøe A/S
  • GRC Tsoukalis, Loukas President, Hellenic Foundation for European and Foreign Policy
  • NOR Ulltveit-Moe, Jens Founder and CEO, Umoe AS
  • INT Üzümcü, Ahmet Director-General, Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons
  • CHE Vasella, Daniel L. Honorary Chairman, Novartis International
  • FIN Wahlroos, Björn Chairman, Sampo plc
  • SWE Wallenberg, Jacob Chairman, Investor AB
  • SWE Wallenberg, Marcus Chairman of the Board of Directors, Skandinaviska Enskilda Banken AB
  • USA Warsh, Kevin M. Distinguished Visiting Fellow and Lecturer, Stanford University
  • GBR Wolf, Martin H. Chief Economics Commentator, The Financial Times
  • USA Wolfensohn, James D. Chairman and CEO, Wolfensohn and Company
  • NLD Zalm, Gerrit Chairman of the Managing Board, ABN-AMRO Bank N.V.
  • GRC Zanias, George Chairman of the Board, National Bank of Greece
  • USA Zoellick, Robert B. Chairman, The Goldman Sachs Group

 Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b2c_1401404126#XPz6xFsa4BD8O68T.99


It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2017 at 00:19
The Central banking system has led to a world of need and debt. So much useless and necessary crap forcing people into debt. That's not a fiction it was W.Wilson's great regret. The world has always been a hierarchy of families, for man and beast and those lineages go back for thousands of years. 

Is this conspiratorial? Haven't we all seen this in our own lives, in our own communities?
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 08:57
I tend to believe that there are conspiracies, but that there is no overarching conspiracy.  Human "nature" is much too random or capricious.  but that is only my opinion.  I think the Matt Damon, Angelina Jolie movie, "Good Shepherd" depicts well how intelligence services/secret societies crossover in some ways, and how they can be foiled by the human variable.  Best laid plans of mice and men often gang awry.

Hitler's thousand year Reich was supposed to be the New World Order.

Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2017 at 13:09
Franciscosan

By the term "New World Order", I'm referring to such groups as the Bilderbergs, surely you've heard of them. They, and other groups apparently influence world politics, industry and military on a grand scale. I know it's a conspiracy theory, but there are a lot of markers that go towards it's authenticity.


It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2017 at 08:22
What do you mean by New World Order?  Do you mean something like Hitler's anticipated New World Order?  It is a danger but probably not in the way that most people think it is a danger.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2017 at 12:44
So, perhaps the idea of a New World Order is no so off the wall as most peoplle think?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2017 at 04:49
The UN is just another tool in the toolkit, or rather set of tools.  It is good for certain things, not so good for others.  Now, of course, whether it makes economic sense for the US to go on supporting the UN is another question, but I think the UN is at least like that funky tool in the back of the garage that you inherited from your great-grandfather (the tool, not the garage).  Not quite sure best how to use it, but if you get rid of it, fate will deem that you will have to do the job for which it was intended.  Then you will go, "that is what that was for!"

The difference between the conservative and the liberal is that:
the liberal says, "what is this for?" and not being sure, they'll say, "let's get rid of it!"
Whereas,
the conservative says "what is this for?" and not being sure, they'll say, "leave it alone."

Nothing I have read here really clarifies that question, and so for now, I am prone to leave it alone.<grin>  Of course, that doesn't mean that there won't be any more light shed on the issue.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 00:47
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-aid-idUSKBN1521PR

The article at link describes an "International Aid Group" but does not name them specifically. The people involved in these Aid missions are anonymous. They are MBE recipients and other wealthy Europeans who make their way to war torn areas at their own expense.

As others have mentioned the Clinton Foundation and even CARE, loose so much money in acquiring and delivering aid that only 10% of the financial effort actually results in food in a belly. Usually it's dog food because that's all that can pass through without being confiscated. 

The anonymous groups manage to deliver actual food, since they have common sense and bribe checkpoint guards with American cigarettes. So there you go, Marlboro for food. We don't need a veto locked bunch of ineffectual posers. Or UN helmets who are war criminals themselves.

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2017 at 09:52
I also respond to others besides you, toyomotor.  The only proposal for revising the UN that I know of, is the addition of countries to the security council, such as Brazil, Indonesia, India, Japan, Germany.  I don't think that is going to be suitable for the current members of the security council.  So therefore, I don't see reforms happening any time soon.  As far as what reforms "ought to" happen, I have no idea.  

But I do feel the UN is useful in things.  When I compare it to a slush fund, I am trying to show how it might be useful.  Governments budget for known expenses, the UN handles unknown expenses and long term issues.  Or at least that is how I see it.  So if describing the UN as a slush fund upsets you toyomotor, I am sorry, but a slush fund is a tool, and is useful for particular situations, it is _not_ in my lexicon something that is derogatory, although because it is usually 'off the books' it can be used for nefarious purposes.  If you wish to propose a different model of how it works, I would love to hear it.  Americans always hear complaints because we pay the most, and don't always get what we want.  I don't consider that a problem, but just the way things work.

My point was that it is as ridiculous to blame the Vietnam War on the UN as it would be to credit the UN for preventing Australia from invading Malaysia.  Australia as far as I know, has never tried to invade any of its neighbors, but I wouldn't give the UN credit for that, just like I wouldn't blame the UN on the Vietnam War in any of its manifestations (French, US, Vietnamization, invasion of Cambodia, Laos, war with China).  I would have chosen two South American countries for my example, except that South American countries have fought all kinds of little wars against each other of which I am not aware.  I did not expect toyomotor to get sensitive because I happened to mention Australia. 
 
I see Australia as relatively peaceful, except for their participation in American adventures.  I also see Australia as small in population in a big neighborhood, of India, Indonesia, Malaysia and China, which is why they participate in American adventures, hoping in reciprocal support if some big guy in their neighborhood decides to pick on them.


Edited by franciscosan - 19 Jun 2017 at 09:59
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 21:56
Sometimes I just can't figure Franky out.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
AnchoriticSybarite View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 14 May 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 97
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnchoriticSybarite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 20:02
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

When did Australia invade, or attempt to invade Malysia? 


I think this is a jibe at me not you.

And in response. The US didn't care about what Rhodesia did or didn't do to anybody. If you liken the UN to local police, if Donald Trump reports a burglary at his Mar E Lago home or Joe Blow reports the same at Dipwad St in Augusta Ga, the police will respond in either case and if nothing else will do the bare minimum to solve the crime.

The UN repsonds ONLY when it is in the interests of one of the great powers + is not contrary to the interests of one of the other great powers.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 14:27
When did Australia invade, or attempt to invade Malysia? 
And why is this even relevant to this conversation.

If you're referring to what is called  Konfrontasi
Quote Between 1962 and 1966 Indonesia and Malaysia fought a small, undeclared war which came to involve troops from Australia, New Zealand, and Britain. The conflict resulted from Indonesia's President Sukarno's belief that the creation of the Federation of Malaysia, which became official in September 1963, represented a British attempt to maintain colonial rule behind the cloak of independence granted to its former colonial possessions in south-east Asia.

For the full story see the link below. 

https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/event/indonesian-confrontation

Once again you go off the rails simply to have a go at me, and once again you're wrong.


And where did I mention Mugabe and Zimbabwe? The man has broiught that country to it's knees, I agree. But, I didn't mention him at all.

Nor did I mention the Scandinavian conflicys which have their roots in history.

Your reference to the UN as a "slush fund" vastly oversimplifys the matter. I asked you if you believed that it was time for the UN to be overhauled, and if so, what model you would recomend, but obviously that was too hard for you.


If you can't answer the question, just say so.





Edited by toyomotor - 18 Jun 2017 at 14:30
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 06:57
Did the UN stop Finland from invading Norway?  Finland did not invade Norway.  See!  The UN must have stopped it.  How about Australia invading Malaysia?  UN must have stopped that too.  If you fault the UN for not stopping invasions that it really had nothing to do with (either way), then you probably should give them credit/blame for not starting invasions that never happened.

So Rhodesia does what its told?  Really? you mean Mugabe's Zimbabwe where white farmers were forced off their efficient modern farms, and the farms were given to black cronies, despite what Great Britain (security council member) and the rest of the world wanted?

Think of the UN as a slush fund, slush funds are useful for delegating resources to things that come up, that are not necessarily budgeted for.  Like, ebola, or sars, or subsistence farmers deforesting the Amazon.  The United States probably doesn't have troops in Cyprus keeping the ethnic Turks and ethnic Greeks separate, but somebody has to do it.  Or maybe there are American soldiers there along with the Swedes and the Poles and Costa Ricans and it is light duty.  Of course, the United States pays the most to this slush fund, resents that and complains about not getting its own way.  On the other hand, the United States is probably consulted for just about any and every problem that comes down the pike, and that is worth something.  
Back to Top
AnchoriticSybarite View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 14 May 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 97
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnchoriticSybarite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2017 at 17:17
I am 5'6" and weigh 260 lbs. I want to eat a pound of French fries with every meal with a bucket of friend chicken followed by an entire pound cake and a gallon of ice cream. While doing so I want to lose 100 lbs. Does anyone see an inherent problem?

There is no workable model for ANY UN. Nationalism and a functioning "world government" are 2 antithetical propositions. The great powers do what is in their own best interests unless it runs counter to that of another great power. Bolivia, Bhutan, Rhodesia and all the other non-great nations do as they are told. This statement may be distasteful/unpalatable but it is historically accurate.

Did the UN stop/prevent Korea or Vietnam. Did it stop the Russian invasion of Afghanistan or for that matter the US invasion. What about any of the Israeli/Arab set tos. What about the USSR's invasions of Czechslovakia and Hungary? In the post Soviet area has the UN prevented any of the reconquistas by Russia. Is the Crimea currently in Ukrainian hands. Does Ukrainian sovereignty extend to its own eastern half.

If you believe UN sanctions are going to remedy the situation there, do I have some prime beachfront property in Arizona for you ---CHEAP. Do you really believe that anything short of military intervention will provide results. And no matter how much the US, EU, NATO or the UN huffs or puffs do you think you'll see one soldier being sent in harms way.

That is the problem with the whole concept of a UN, it provides the public with a false sense of security. When that building in NY went up John Q Public signed a great sigh of relief that now he didn't have to worry about nations doing bad things to each other.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2017 at 10:15
I don't see why the Security Council would want to add members such as Germany, Japan, Brazil or India to the Security Council.  The five have power of veto and I don't see why they would give that up, or share that further.  Some complain that the UN can't get anything done because of the veto, but that kind of an attitude presupposes that action is good, and inaction bad.  Is the US Congress more efficient when it passes more bills in a year than in the last year?  The question is not whether one should do things, but whether one is doing things that should get done.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 12:57
franciscosan

Do you think it's time for a new model UN?

If you do, what model would you suggest?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 13:16
I am not saying that there was anything "particular" about Zionism.  I'm saying that it was in the air at the time, in Austria, it is almost like two sides of the same coin, German ultra-nationalism on the one hand, and Zionism on the other, but coming out of Vienna in the !890s.  And of course you have on top of that Wilson arguing for self-determination for ethnic peoples after WWI.  In my mind, it is not very far from that that Hitler starts coming up with Lebensraum, and Albeit macht Frei.  Ho Chi Minh was at Versailles, that is where Vietnamese nationalism came from, wrapped in communist coat.
No, Zionism is _an_ answer for, something there shouldn't need to be an answer for, the holocaust/ Shoah.  I worry that Judaism is putting all its eggs in one basket.  Of course, up until fairly recently, there were more Jews in the United States than there was in Israel.  And some Orthodox Jews both inside and outside of Israel consider Israel to be a pretender, for the Messiah is to found Israel, and where is the Messiah?  It is not a personal problem for me, religions can be inconsistent about small details.
Back to Top
AnchoriticSybarite View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 14 May 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 97
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnchoriticSybarite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 06:22
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We could go for "the first world deciding to tackle a problem in the 3rd world," and deciding to do it directly.  That would be called colonialism.  As it is, being the first world being involved in the third world is labeled as neocolonialism, unless you get sovereign governments to "buy into the endeavor," the price of that buy-in, is "esteeming the rightfully elected leaders," the presidents for life. and the corruption that occurs as the price of doing business in their nations.

I see, as far as Israel is concerned, you want a solution!  And if that is a Final Solution, so be it?  I modestly propose a solution greater than that, kill of humanity and let the Earth revert back to nature.  No more human problems.  No, I am not always happy with what the UN does, but I see a value and a virtue to the effort.  As far as Israel is concerned today, I suggest you deal with the realities of the situation instead of wishful thinking about what exterminations "should" have been done in... 1947-48?
As far as where the course of Israel was settled, I would suggest look at the Balfour agreement, and the rise of a particular kind of nationalism, known as Zionism.  However, if it was not for another form of nationalism, National Socialism, there would not have been such a pressing need for Israel, nor a sympathy with it amongst the great powers.  It is ironic that Zionism and its Ur-nemesis, German ultra-nationalism come from the same place, Vienna in the 1890s.  Of course the ideas about ethnic self-determination were a bane to the low simmer of the melting pot of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.


What a strange definition of colonialism. Seems to me that during the 17, 18, & early 1900s when one of the European powers wanted a particular piece of real estate they took it and if the natives...oops sorry indigenous people didn't like it they killed them--just ask Montezuma, Powhattan, Cetshwayo or any number of the Indian nabobs. And the goal was not to solve a problem in the conquered area, the goal was to enrich the conquerer. Now I admit I wear glasses so my eyesight is not the best, but I really fail to see the distinction between a first world country deciding to "fix a problem" and the UN deciding to do the same thing. As a practical matter, any fixing to be done will be done by 1st world nations regardless as to whether Andorra, Fiji and Belize vote their support or not. According to YOUR definition "buying into the endeavor" does not solve the problem, it perpetuates it.

I seriously doubt that anyone is more pro-Israeli than I am. Had I been their PM, I would have probably used there nukes at least a half a dozen times in the past 50 yrs. However regardless of how cruel and heartless it seems, I could have lived with a 2nd final solution. The world has endured a plethora of genocides--Armenia, Hitler, Cambodia, Kosovo, the entire continent of Africa post WWII--and the world lumbers on.

Israel almost from its inception has been a flash point which could have easily led to a nuclear exchange several times. But even more importantly it precipitated the rise of radical Islam. There is not a single inhabited square foot on the planet earth where you can be 100% sure of your personal safety viz a viz a terrorist attack.

I'm glad you brought up Zionism and Nazism. What is so "particular" about Zionism? In a world not a country mind you but a world where anti Semitism was not only accepted but the norm, you find it strange that Jews might find it appealing to have a homeland where they would not be persecuted. We point our fingers at Germany and condemn. Do you remember the rampant anti=Semitism of la belle France and Dreyfuss. How many Jews did Great Britain allow to immigrate when Hitler wanted not to kill but to expel them from Germany. Spain expelled the Jews 400 years ago under threat of death or compelled conversion. How welcome were the Jews to the US. Not. Just a few decades before my birth my home state of Georgia was home to one of the most horrific crimes involving anti-Semitism in history. A Jewish businessman was falsely accused and convicted of rape. The sitting governor at the time, one of the most popular and powerful men ever to hold that post; destroyed his political career by commuting the sentence from death. A mob broke into the jail and gleefully lynched him.

As for German ultra nationalism, without the first UN (the League) there would have been no Hitler. Dear Adolph would have been just another name on a census roll no different than Hans, Fritz or Ulrich.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.