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Time, linear, or cyclical?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 21:20
Quote What did the Greeks/Romans say about who manifests reality?
 
Time by itself does not exist... It must not be claimed that anyone can sense time apart from the movement of things.
Lucretius
(Roman poet quoted in New Scientist article "The Time Delusion" 6th July 2019)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 02:09
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote What did the Greeks/Romans say about who manifests reality?
 
Time by itself does not exist... It must not be claimed that anyone can sense time apart from the movement of things.
Lucretius
(Roman poet quoted in New Scientist article "The Time Delusion" 6th July 2019)
Thanks for the link it's good article, the last piece relates to Simultaneity IMO.
I'm not sure it perfectly illustrates a lack of free will but it tells us that the body has an independent intelligence of which we are unaware.

"Neuroscience has also chipped in. Around 30 years ago psychologist Benjamin Libet discovered that if you ask people to make voluntary movements, their brains initiate the movement before they become consciously aware of any intention to move. Other experiments have since been performed along similar lines, leading many neuroscientists to conclude that free will is an illusion."

Read more: The grand delusion: Who's in control? | New Scientist 
The grand delusion: Blind to bias
LOL

“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 21:07
Free will is an illusion eh? So who exactly gives me instructions at work? A figment of my imagination I can safely ignore? Or perhaps a superior form of life known collectively as 'managers' who quite obviously hail from a different planet? I shall investigate further....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 00:22
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Free will is an illusion eh? So who exactly gives me instructions at work? A figment of my imagination I can safely ignore? Or perhaps a superior form of life known collectively as 'managers' who quite obviously hail from a different planet? I shall investigate further....
Maybe you are the employee and the manager ?  
Maybe the only thing separating you from the manager is a stream of consciousness unique to yourself, not a soul but the very newest part, of all that you have ever been. 

I feel like I have the other complex from the article, lol. I feel like I'm controlling everything.
These particular findings are interesting and encouraging, science finally crawling out of the dogma, but not exactly tracking with my own ideas about consciousness.


Edited by Vanuatu - 24 Jul 2019 at 00:26
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 21:41

Employee and manager? There's plenty of colleagues who'll nod knowingly at that one :D

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 16:32
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Employee and manager? There's plenty of colleagues who'll nod knowingly at that one :D

yes, an international phenomenon. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2019 at 13:39
Ever heard of Edgar Cayce? He was a farmer in the Kentucky born 1887 and to many he was a psychic medium. In the 1970's Jane Roberts did something like Cayce and what she came up with is part of modern occultism or new age religion. Robert's books describe a Simultaneity that allows present beliefs to create existence in the future, as though what you saw acted out on a stage, your beliefs about reality  are destined to become a reality.

Utopia has been a part of the story of humans, so have ideas about freedom from suffering. The loss of the pristine earth makes us sad, naturally the optimist wants to believe the world is good and that Atlantis is like legacy memory in a pc game. You can play Pong, or Donkey Kong on a supremely advanced system. Humans have memory systems just like game characters. If you don't get uploads you can't fully interact with the environment in a game system.

Can anyone indulge the idea of this life as a virtual existence? 
A material world viewed by a Non Physical Being that is a composite of many material experiences, higher levels of evolution or bad software, needed lots of patches and upgrades. Atlantis or UFO's could have the elemental human legacy to project that virtual universe. Or not.



Edited by Vanuatu - 15 Aug 2019 at 00:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 01:36
Quote Robert's books describe a Simultaneity that allows present beliefs to create existence in the future, as though what you saw acted out on a stage, your beliefs about reality  are destined to become a reality.
I think therefore it shall be? I'm in serious danger of injury right now, probably caused either by uncontrolled laughter or an irate librarian. Thinking makes no difference. It's an internal mechanism of brain, not some spiritually-connected powerhouse of quantum realities. Unless Roberts gets out of her chair and starts work on her imagined future, it remains fantasy. Unless of course she communicates her desires by means of publishing and hence inspires someone else to get up and do something real, but then, that person gets the credit. She doesn't.
 
It's like when I was young. I dreamt of becoming a rock star... Yes I know, but I did. It was not going to happen because the music business did not know I existed. later I left work, eventually found something close to a stable band, and went on the road with the hard workin' rock band, lived the Spinal Tap dream, and eventually got nowhere. But, in that period of actually doing something, there were always those close calls and ever so slightly missed opportunities. Now? Well, I don't dream of rock stardom anymore - learned my lesson there - but neither is the music business likely to discover my talent for making loud noises. Things only happen if you make them happen.
 
Quote The loss of the pristine earth makes us sad
Oh no, more risk of injury :D Human beings are far too self interested to worry about pristine Earth. In Brazil, there are areas of amazonian jungle reserved for the native inhabitants, who claim the areas are too small. Outsiders have a different view. Illegal logging and farming still goes on, and I saw an interview with one Brazilian farmer who was quite adamant that the natives had no right to deprive her of fresh arable pasture.
 
But then this sort of attitude is nothing new or limited to Brazil. The Wild West was more or less a monumental land grab at the expense of anyone who happened to be already there.
 
Quote Can anyone indulge the idea of this life as a virtual existence? 
Okay, serious now. There already is some thinking in this direction because at least one theory tells us that the universe is a sort of virtual existence described by information at its periphery. No, I don't understand that either. But then, quantum theory includes the peculiar idea that existence is only real because we observe it. Nope, don't understand that either. But thirdly, we are of course trapped within our own internal perceptions. We do not 'see' the world as it is. Our vision is an image rendered within the brain from information received, coloured and interpreted internally. Since the universe has no actual appearance as such - visible light is merely a subset of radiated energy like any other - then strictly speaking we are as individuals existing in a virtual world, or perhaps more correctly, a virtual conception of something beyond ourselves. Hmmm... I think I understand that... AHA! Therefore according to Roberts the world is as real as I want it to be! Success!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 02:02
LOL
Just don't call me Fredo.
Clearly you have already thought about this. This conversation is not over!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 04:06
MIT Neuroscience research created models based on the theoretical connections between Psychology- Information Theory, and thermodynamics. 

Why wouldn't the neurological system be subject to universal laws? 

The overall entropy of the universe increases during photosynthesis as the sunlight dissipates, even as the plant prevents itself from decaying by maintaining an orderly internal structure. ... As entropy production increases, so does this ratio: A system's behavior becomes more and more “irreversible.”Jan 22, 2014
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 21:10
So the researchers at MIT came to a conclusion after much experiment, calculation, and rational thinking that nothing lasts forever? I suppose someone had to prove it sooner or later. Whilst I am in the region of considering that life is an extension of our universe's physical existence and behaviour - we are after all composed of exactly the same stuff as everything else - linking this to thermodynamic causality seems a little odd. It's like describing a steam engine existing because it functions rather than having been designed and built at a factory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 01:39
It does seem odd. Psychological entropy fits better in the second thread. Here open systems and time fit better.
Yes, MIT guy is saying that entropy is the decay and death of eventually everything. Time starts and ends with increasing velocity in an open system. The dissipation rates of energy among all things living and non living differ and forces shape structure. 
Systems with certain particles driven by electromagnetic waves have an ability to reverse dissipation of energy. That would be in Wave form, Momentum and Light.
The need for biological reproduction and other pressures lead to evolutionary changes. The more novel a situation the greater dissipation of energy in a closed system. Forcing more creative, imaginative strategy and tools in closed systems. 
The big deal about MIT guy's research is that he sees in his formula that a mechanism must exist to reduce the entropy in open systems like solar system and driven adaptation to, I dunno maybe replicate earth? 
With an Atlantis, one continent- all theme park. 

“What Is Life?” the eminent quantum physicist Erwin Schrödinger argued that this is what living things must do. A plant, for example, absorbs extremely energetic sunlight, uses it to build sugars, and ejects infrared light, a much less concentrated form of energy. The overall entropy of the universe increases during photosynthesis as the sunlight dissipates, even as the plant prevents itself from decaying by maintaining an orderly internal structure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:14
Quote Systems with certain particles driven by electromagnetic waves have an ability to reverse dissipation of energy. That would be in Wave form, Momentum and Light.
Not possible. The Second Law of Thermodynamics interferes with that idea. Momentum is a fixed value derived from mass and velocity. That's in absolute terms, not relative. Waves and particles are manifestations of energy, momentum is not, since it covers kinetic and potential energy of a mass moving with a known velocity.
 
Quote Time starts and ends with increasing velocity in an open system.
That does not comply with known physical laws. Since the nature of Time is not properly understood (Scientific American devoted an entire issue to articles about it) I don't see how you can assert such things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 02:44
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote Systems with certain particles driven by electromagnetic waves have an ability to reverse dissipation of energy. That would be in Wave form, Momentum and Light.
Not possible. The Second Law of Thermodynamics interferes with that idea. Momentum is a fixed value derived from mass and velocity. That's in absolute terms, not relative. Waves and particles are manifestations of energy, momentum is not, since it covers kinetic and potential energy of a mass moving with a known velocity.
It is possible and that it is exactly what occurs. Momentum attaches to photons-
"photon interacts as a unit in collisions or when absorbed, rather than as an extensive wave. Massive quanta, like electrons, also act like macroscopic particles—something we expect, because they are the smallest units of matter. Particles carry momentum as well as energy. Despite photons having no mass, there has long been evidence that EM radiation carries momentum. (Maxwell and others who studied EM waves predicted that they would carry momentum.) It is now a well-established fact that photons do have momentum. In fact, photon momentum is suggested by the photoelectric effect, where photons knock electrons out of a substance. Figure 1 shows macroscopic evidence of photon momentum."
Quote Time starts and ends with increasing velocity in an open system.
That does not comply with known physical laws. Since the nature of Time is not properly understood (Scientific American devoted an entire issue to articles about it) I don't see how you can assert such things.
[/QUOTE] Flow rate and it's relation to velocity is used in medical fields, closed systems. Without friction velocity increases in open systems. Momentum is not a fixed value. Open systems, nature of time is not properly understood, this is Alternative thread.

MAKING CONNECTIONS: CONSERVATION OF MOMENTUM

Not only is momentum conserved in all realms of physics, but all types of particles are found to have momentum. We expect particles with mass to have momentum, but now we see that massless particles including photons also carry momentum.

 



Edited by Vanuatu - 21 Aug 2019 at 00:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 14:03
F=mv, mass unless acted upon by other forces, has momentum, however, I think it is fair to say that force "is not" momentum.  Although I admit that someone who actually knows about physics might correct me.  I am fairly ignorant of physics, which of course gives me as much right to pontificate about it as anyone else has.Wink

That raises an interesting question, what do actuality and potentiality have to do with time??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 23:23
Might we discuss in the Alternative section, new theories about the Universal Laws of Physics?
These ideas are changing all the time and dogmatic ideas are being cast aside. I cannot technically appreciate the equations but I can certainly listen to experts and accept their guidance about possibilities.

Quote what do actuality and potentiality have to do with time?
 
Um, aliens? or Aquaman? I've read lots of comics, I'm qualified.
Wink 


Edited by Vanuatu - 21 Aug 2019 at 01:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 01:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 I am fairly ignorant of physics, which of course gives me as much right to pontificate about it as anyone else has.Wink
You trusted us with physics and our limited skill set in "time lineal or cyclical?". Now you will have to make another dogmatic admission.(there's room for a small one, said the actress to the bishop.)

Humans violate the second law of thermodynamics ,right?
Therefore, evolutionary theory claims that organisms get better ordered over time. The second law of thermodynamics holds that entropy increases; that is, systems over time become more disordered. Therefore, both evolutionary theory and thesecond law of thermodynamics cannot both be correct.Jan 9, 2010


Edited by Vanuatu - 21 Aug 2019 at 10:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 05:29
Seems like there is an equivocation about the word "system." and that there is a belief that one can conflate biology to physics, which is at least not yet true.  Biology deals with living systems, and physics deals with nonliving systems.  It may be possible to address life and mind through quantum physics (Roger Penrose does), but not on a mechanistic model.

F=MA, not F=MV, A=(v squared), my mistake.

Physics is a subset of philosophy, Newton was the chair for natural philosophy.  Not all philosophies that discuss time are the natural philosophy.  Therefore, one can talk about time without having to recourse to physics.  Since Galileo, "scientific" natural philosophy has been written "in mathematics."  But, that is not the only way to understand time and reality.

It is entertaining to watch a public television special on Einstein or Heisenberg or whomever, but personally I wouldn't mistake that entertainment for knowledge.  To me, physics gets grounded out in doing things, physically, or in a rigorous (mathematical) conceptual way.  Einstein had his thought experiments, I can pretend to follow his thought experiments, but not really, and I can't develop new ones, or even old ones other people have developed.  To me, it is like Miyagi sensei (Pat Morita, Karate Kid), says, "walk on this side of the road, okay, walk on that side of the road, okay, walk in the middle, squish."  I have a lot of respect for people on the other side of the street, but I worry about the kids playing in the middle of the street.

But, of course most kids play in the street and nothing ever happens to them, or at least nothing serious.

about actual, and potential.  Actual is a way of saying something "is," but not only that it is, but that it is now, and has a quality of persisting.  It implication that it existed indefinitely before, and will exist indefinitely after.  It also implies that what "happened," what manifested, was not a phantasm, it was caused, and has causal effects.

The ancient pre-Socratic philosopher Parmenides, said, to paraphrase him, is is, is not, is not.  How do you go from something that exists, to something that doesn't exist, or from something that does not exist, to something that does?  How can you think of something coming to be, and something passing away?  Well for Aristotle (who also talks about actuality), you can talk about something _potentially_ there _before_ its existence, or one can talk about something that is actual passing away, decaying, loosing its potential.

In English, we have the subjunctive tense, "if I were to go to the store, I would buy a candy bar."  It is a counterfactual condition.  'I didn't go to the store, but if I had go to the store, O would have bought a candy bar."  This makes no sense the speakers of languages that don't have subjunctive cases, like Vietnamese.  A subjunctive-less speaker would be confused by the statement, saying "what do you mean?  You did not go to the store..."  There is an advantage to this way of thinking, the subjuncitive-less speaker doesn't spend his time worrying about the way it could have been (wasted time or potential), they are busy making it happen now, building a new way of life, like, say some Vietnamese had to do as refugees from Vietnam.


Edited by franciscosan - Yesterday at 05:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4 hours 50 minutes ago at 12:32
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

It is entertaining to watch a public television special on Einstein or Heisenberg or whomever, but personally I wouldn't mistake that entertainment for knowledge.
Entertainment is knowledge, it obviously is for us here. Beer

 
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

To me, physics gets grounded out in doing things, physically, or in a rigorous (mathematical) conceptual way.
Who has time for that? A grain of understanding in expanding existence is an increment of evolution. What else is there to do with a brain that keeps asking questions?

Quote
In English, we have the subjunctive tense, "if I were to go to the store, I would buy a candy bar."  It is a counterfactual condition.  'I didn't go to the store, but if I had go to the store, O would have bought a candy bar."  This makes no sense the speakers of languages that don't have subjunctive cases, like Vietnamese.  A subjunctive-less speaker would be confused by the statement, saying "what do you mean?  You did not go to the store..."  There is an advantage to this way of thinking, the subjuncitive-less speaker doesn't spend his time worrying about the way it could have been (wasted time or potential), they are busy making it happen now, building a new way of life, like, say some Vietnamese had to do as refugees from Vietnam.
The grammar is necessary for the hypothetical thought? 

Can a subjunctive less speaker tell me about a period in time years earlier when they didn't get the job they wanted?
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