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Do you love an evil historical person/figure?

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    Posted: 17 Mar 2013 at 05:02
He is second At 60 million of his own not counting those who fell in his amry due to poor leadership
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 22:26

"Light" and "dark", "good" and "evil", these concepts are religious in nature and have no existence beyond how people prefer to define them. For the Nazis, the people Heydrich killed were the "horrible dark side" and his actions were morally sound. My point however was that if we ignore such moral dualism, which is always tendentious whether used by the Nazis or our contemporaries, it's possible to appreciate a skilled individual for his/her competence regardless of the cause.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 21:52
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

I don't see the problem with Scourge's admiration for Heydrich within the context of this thread. Seeing as this is a thread about "evil" historical figures, he couldn't very well proclaim his love for Mother Theresa. If you put aside morality it's obvious Heydrich was both committed and highly competent in his job; extermination. If he worked for a different cause or the Nazis won the war I'm convinced he'd be remembered as a German hero today.
 

Second the moral self-righteousness that erupted in this thread with Scourge's posts is quite pathetic. I don't know anything about Heydrich's personal commitment to Nazism, but if he worked hard and competently for a cause he believed in I don't think we should be so absorbed in our own perspectives we can't appreciate the efforts of those who differ. This at least is how I relate to people who are in opposition to my own ideals but who still deserve some recognition for their level of skill and dedication, like the Nazis, the Soviets, Muslim terrorists and a number of other groups.

I'd rather use the opposite argument: there is no light side to Heydrich because he was dedicated to his job and beliefs, but rather does Heydrich shows what a horrible dark side dedication had. Personally I distrust anybody who is extremely committed to a cause, even if it is a cause I agree with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 20:58
I don't see the problem with Scourge's admiration for Heydrich within the context of this thread. Seeing as this is a thread about "evil" historical figures, he couldn't very well proclaim his love for Mother Theresa. If you put aside morality it's obvious Heydrich was both committed and highly competent in his job; extermination. If he worked for a different cause or the Nazis won the war I'm convinced he'd be remembered as a German hero today.
 
Second the moral self-righteousness that erupted in this thread with Scourge's posts is quite pathetic. I don't know anything about Heydrich's personal commitment to Nazism, but if he worked hard and competently for a cause he believed in I don't think we should be so absorbed in our own perspectives we can't appreciate the efforts of those who differ. This at least is how I relate to people who are in opposition to my own ideals but who still deserve some recognition for their level of skill and dedication, like the Nazis, the Soviets, Muslim terrorists and a number of other groups.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 15:07
Originally posted by Batu Batu wrote:

Not sure what "evil" actually means but I admire Napoleon Bonaparte. I admire his imagination and confidence and his excited childish nature.

I also admire Tamer the Lane; he would built towers from skulls but still, he was such a capable general and statesman. He would have converted the Chinese to Islam if he had lived longer. I wonder what would have happened then!
 
No problem with either figure Batu because in a sense these identifications stand at the bottom of the original proposal for the thread. In terms of contemporary Europe in the years 1790-1815, both the French Revolution and the career of Napoleon Bonaparte were looked upon as evils threatening civilization. Certainly, Napoleon was no saint in his personal relationships (although he was always kind to his mother because he was scared of the old girl anyway). Besides, much the same can be said of Attila. Likewise Timur Khan (or the Lame, if you wish) was not the embodiment of intrinsic evil--even with the head episode [which I always find humorous since it is sort of a throwback to ancient times as with the Egyptians piling the penises of their enemies in a heap as trophies)Evil Smile. That we were thrown into a tizzy by someone throwing Heydrich into the discussion should not act as a discouragement since all proposals need to stand upon evidence that substantiates the reason for admiration. People admire Thomas Jefferson although as a human being he was both cad and hypocrite!


Edited by drgonzaga - 14 Jan 2010 at 15:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 12:50
Not sure what "evil" actually means but I admire Napoleon Bonaparte. I admire his imagination and confidence and his excited childish nature.

I also admire Tamer the Lane; he would built towers from skulls but still, he was such a capable general and statesman. He would have converted the Chinese to Islam if he had lived longer. I wonder what would have happened then!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 07:37
Sir, I do not agree that any disagreement exists here for your utterance of a rather disagreable supposition has run into an agreed upon well merited chastisement.
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 07 Jan 2010 at 07:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 05:04
That is ridiculous though I guess it all comes down to perspective. So nobody else is gonna change their minds nor will I. So the argument is void to be honest a situation where agreeing to disagree is better than debating morality and who considers what great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2009 at 15:11
My favorite Evil e-character is drgonzaga!Big smile < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall;" id="jsProxy" ="">
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2009 at 14:49
There is nothing likeable or heroic about any figure that inverts societal norms and engages in criminal activity under the guise of responsibility in support of these inversions or better stated, perversions. If anything, Heydrich is the epitome of the untermensch given free rein to act out his psychopathy so as to efficiently carry out the herd mentality at its most vulgar level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2009 at 10:48
I think you're partaking in the sucking up to a degree that prevents you from seeing that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2009 at 05:37
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello Scourge
 
While I do agree that Heydrich was an effective military commander he is definitely not a hero.
 
A hero, a real hero, is a person who sacrifices himself for the right cause not for a cause. The guy betreyed his own roots (he was after all part jew) to lick the Nazi boots and sucked up to Hitler and Himmler faithfully just like any slave sucking up to his master and if you think this is admirable then you really have a problem.
 
Al-Jassas


Your wrong; he wasn't Jewish. That is a lie and propaganda. Heydrich was not Jewish and he did not suck up to Hitler and Himmler like slaves. That is wrong and a lie. You are seeing this wrong completely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 18:05
Hello Scourge
 
While I do agree that Heydrich was an effective military commander he is definitely not a hero.
 
A hero, a real hero, is a person who sacrifices himself for the right cause not for a cause. The guy betreyed his own roots (he was after all part jew) to lick the Nazi boots and sucked up to Hitler and Himmler faithfully just like any slave sucking up to his master and if you think this is admirable then you really have a problem.
 
Al-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 20 Dec 2009 at 18:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 16:46
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

 

That is ridiculous the guy is a German hero. He fought against the enemies of the Reich with a soberness and toughness not exhibited by many and was a great family man at the same time. He fought for what he believed in even when he was dying he still drew his pistol and tried valiantly to hang on and live. There should be a statue of him in Berlin or at least a memorial.

He is a German heroe? Where? In the heads of lunatic Neo-Nazis or even in those of the die-hard nazis?

He isn't a German heroe, believe me, i should have heared of it!


Edited by ulrich von hutten - 21 Dec 2009 at 01:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 10:13
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

the loyalty he had for his country and his beliefs and how he proud of man he was.

Loyalty to one's country and pride are not positive character traits as all, and Heydrich is an exellent illustration as to why they are so bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 06:52
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It is inconceivable - at least I would have thought it was - that anyone would equate the Third Reich with Germany. Heydrich may be a Nazi hero, but he certainly isn't a German one.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 04:31
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Having an opinion that isn't politically correct doesn't make somebody a fool or a bastard in fact it means they are a little bit more open to the truth and are able to see the greatness in men that are other wise vilified.

 
Since when is a blunt declaration in favor of morality and ethics considered little more than "political correctness"! You are a fool Scourge and anyone with an inkling of decency would simply tell you to go!


Heydrich showed the most important traits a human could have. Traits which many in today's society do not possess due to what the media portrays him as; I mean you could just sit around and let him be forgotten into the pages of History as something hes not; or you could read the truth about him and see the loyalty he had for his country and his beliefs and how he proud of man he was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 02:35
Having an opinion that isn't politically correct doesn't make somebody a fool or a bastard in fact it means they are a little bit more open to the truth and are able to see the greatness in men that are other wise vilified.

 
Since when is a blunt declaration in favor of morality and ethics considered little more than "political correctness"! You are a fool Scourge and anyone with an inkling of decency would simply tell you to go!


Edited by drgonzaga - 20 Dec 2009 at 02:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 20:51
It is inconceivable - at least I would have thought it was - that anyone would equate the Third Reich with Germany. Heydrich may be a Nazi hero, but he certainly isn't a German one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ziegenbartami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 14:43
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Its not my fault they can't honor their past and betrayed their own country in 1945 when all of a sudden there were 65 million communists or social democrats traitors.

Actually it was the National Socialists who betrayed Germany, by instigating a war of aggression with genocidal intent, which ended in the destruction of Germany, the deaths of millions of German citizens (not to mention the dead throughout Europe), and the subjugation of East Germany to stifling communist rule, the economic effects of which are still being felt today. Because of the atrocities committed by the Nazis in Eastern Europe (including by this so-called "German hero" of yours, Heydrich), the Soviet Union and other eastern European states retaliated by forcibly expelling, under inhumane conditions, 15 million ethnic Germans from their homelands, and killing 2 million more. These people had the Nazis to thank for this treatment.

As for his assassination, had I been a Czech under Nazi occupation, I would have done everything I could to kill him and anyone else who sought to oppress me, so kudos to the brave men who did. They're the real heroes.


Edited by Ziegenbartami - 19 Dec 2009 at 23:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 13:40
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Well that works both ways then.  If you can't judge them by today's standards then you can't admire them by today's standards either.  Simples.

I didn't say that you could. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 12:44
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by egyptian goddess egyptian goddess wrote:

So who else can't help liking an ominous historical figure, I'd love to hear about them Smile??
 
Hmmm... I'll have to consult the ritual statues I keep in my shrine...
 
O great Chariman Mao, together with the Fuhrer and comrade Stalin! Do I like ominous or evil historical figures?
 
*deep rumbling answer in an ancient tongue*
 
No, apparently I do not.
 
-Akolouthos
 


LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL and... LOL



Edited by Panther - 19 Dec 2009 at 12:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 11:16
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Scourge, you are either a fool or a batard! Talk such as the above declaration is considered criminal activity in the Deutsche Bundesrepublik.


Probably not but its illegal to say things like Sieg Heil or Meine Ehre heiße Treue or Heil Hitler but I doubt its illegal to suggest that. Though who cares what the laws are in Germany. Its not my fault they can't honor their past and betrayed their own country in 1945 when all of a sudden there were 65 million communists or social democrats traitors. Having an opinion that isn't politically correct doesn't make somebody a fool or a bastard in fact it means they are a little bit more open to the truth and are able to see the greatness in men that are other wise vilified.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 11:11
Scourge, you are either a fool or a batard! Talk such as the above declaration is considered criminal activity in the Deutsche Bundesrepublik.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 09:53
Originally posted by Ziegenbartami Ziegenbartami wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

His "effectiveness"...you've got to be kidding.
 
The only truth here can be summarized by his murderous CV!
 
 
He was a disgusting being to which the adjective "human" is entirely unapplicable.

Denying him human is inhuman in itself and a underestimation of the human character and spirit.

"Underestimation of the human character and spirit"? What character and spirit? The character of a ruthless, criminal thug and the spirit and willingness to kill countless innocent people? He deserved what he got on the streets of Prague in May 1942.


That is ridiculous the guy is a German hero. He fought against the enemies of the Reich with a soberness and toughness not exhibited by many and was a great family man at the same time. He fought for what he believed in even when he was dying he still drew his pistol and tried valiantly to hang on and live. There should be a statue of him in Berlin or at least a memorial.


Edited by Scourge - 19 Dec 2009 at 09:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 03:57
Originally posted by egyptian goddess egyptian goddess wrote:

So who else can't help liking an ominous historical figure, I'd love to hear about them Smile??
 
Hmmm... I'll have to consult the ritual statues I keep in my shrine...
 
O great Chariman Mao, together with the Fuhrer and comrade Stalin! Do I like ominous or evil historical figures?
 
*deep rumbling answer in an ancient tongue*
 
No, apparently I do not.
 
-Akolouthos
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 03:45
'Love' is a very neurotic emotion in this context.  Who would as such 'love' a historical figure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 03:41
Well that works both ways then.  If you can't judge them by today's standards then you can't admire them by today's standards either.  Simples.


Edited by Zagros - 19 Dec 2009 at 03:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 01:23
Its simple really, we can't judge the past by our standards. Thus Atilla isn't an evil savage in my mind, the Romans who at least thought of themselves civilized were doing the same thing for centuries, and did not stop doing it when their powerbase was crumbling either.

WW2 happened mid-20th century at a time when we already had a semblance of univeral rights, respect for human life, etc. Thus there is no way you can call a Heydrich a great man. Well you can, but you'd be playing into your own delusions.

I think that Dr Gonzaga summed it up well.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ziegenbartami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2009 at 00:33
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

His "effectiveness"...you've got to be kidding.
 
The only truth here can be summarized by his murderous CV!
 
 
He was a disgusting being to which the adjective "human" is entirely unapplicable.

Denying him human is inhuman in itself and a underestimation of the human character and spirit.

"Underestimation of the human character and spirit"? What character and spirit? The character of a ruthless, criminal thug and the spirit and willingness to kill countless innocent people? He deserved what he got on the streets of Prague in May 1942.
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