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Celtic and Slavic languages' similarities

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    Posted: 09 Oct 2009 at 19:26

I started to search online for this subject when I discovered that "Yes" in Irish is "Ta" i.e. almost the same with "Da" of Slavic languages.

Then I found this article. However, it claims that ancient European Celtic languages did relate to Slavic but not to the languages of the British Isles.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/CeltoSlavic-Similarities-Pavel-Serafimov

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2009 at 20:56
Looks a tad suspicious to me at first glance. Germanic languages seem much closer to Slavic than Celtic, so it's kind of strange he doesn't argue that the Germanic peoples were Slavic as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2009 at 20:58
Agree with Styr.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2009 at 21:26

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Looks a tad suspicious to me at first glance. Germanic languages seem much closer to Slavic than Celtic, so it's kind of strange he doesn't argue that the Germanic peoples were Slavic as well.

Sorted. It looks very strange when looking at the word comparison tables. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2009 at 21:28
Well. But besides that controversial article do you know any other studies of Celtic-Slavic comparative linguistic studies?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2009 at 21:32
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Looks a tad suspicious to me at first glance. Germanic languages seem much closer to Slavic than Celtic, so it's kind of strange he doesn't argue that the Germanic peoples were Slavic as well.
Isn't Germanic a branch of Persian? I thought we clarified this issue in other thread.Embarrassed


@ Sarmat

Good charts. Old Bulgarian language has been used in word comparisons and I read somewhere old Bulgarian has many roots including Turkic and Iranic words, Although I am not 100% sure. Another thing is the word choices in some cases look odd or can be unrelated.


Edited by Suren - 09 Oct 2009 at 21:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2009 at 21:44
Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Looks a tad suspicious to me at first glance. Germanic languages seem much closer to Slavic than Celtic, so it's kind of strange he doesn't argue that the Germanic peoples were Slavic as well.
Isn't Germanic a branch of Persian? I thought we clarified this issue in other thread.Embarrassed
 
 
I believe it was Cyrus who was trying to clarify that, but without much success as far as I remember.
 


Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

@ Sarmat

Good charts. Old Bulgarian language has been used in word comparisons and I read somewhere old Bulgarian has many roots including Turkic and Iranic words, Although I am not 100% sure. Another thing is the word choices in some cases look odd or can be unrelated.
 
I didn't see all the charts, but those I saw mostly had common Slavic roots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2009 at 23:31
Some of them have no analogies in Russian like 'durdoria' or 'bonela' and others may have come to Russian through Church Slavonic. Those include words like 'Bes', 'breg.

Edited by Anton - 09 Oct 2009 at 23:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2009 at 23:38
No actuallyI was wrong-- durdoria seems to be old slavonic word (дърдорети) abd has analogies in Lithuanian language as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2009 at 01:08

The problem with those kind of charts is that you can quite easily support an agenda by choosing your translations - especially if you choose one word from the whole group of languages as in the first tables.  I'm not saying he does, just mentioning the possibility. For example, let's make a Germanic column for some of the words in the first table deliberately choosing words sounding similar:

Gaulish - Slavic - Sc. Gaelic - Welsh - Germanic (I'm adding this one, the rest is from the article)

acamno(rock) - kamen(stone, CSl) - creag (rock)- craig - kragge (rock,Swe)

aus- usho - cluas - clust - aura(Norse)

barro - vrah/brdo - ceah - pen - bairg(dial.)

briva - brivna -drochaid - pont - brygga(not mentioning bridge)

ceio - kaja se - guil - galaru - qainon (goth)

cuda - koza - craicion - croen - hud(sc.)

dalio(part) - del - roin - rhan - del(sc.)

dordo - dardorja -gobair - grwgnach - dunder(sc.)

duxtir - dasterja - inghean - merch - dottir (norse)

lubi - ljubi - seirc - serchu - ljuv (swe, same root, changed meaning)

menekki - mnogo - iomadh - yn fawr - mykke (swe, dia.)  

etc. I could as well have chosen word with the same meaning sounding completely different. I mean, it appears he's using dimunitive on gora to make it sound closer to Gaulish gorca (I'm why Gaulish 'c' wouldn't be a 'k' though). He listed 20 words and claimed such a list was impossible to make unless Gaulish was Slavic: in about 10 minutes I found Scandinavian words for half of those without looking around much. I'm not saying I can fill the list, just curious about his conclusion.

Anyway, I'm just looking for errors and haven't gone through it all ;)

It does look interesting. Thanks for posting.



Edited by Styrbiorn - 10 Oct 2009 at 01:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2009 at 09:31
Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Looks a tad suspicious to me at first glance. Germanic languages seem much closer to Slavic than Celtic, so it's kind of strange he doesn't argue that the Germanic peoples were Slavic as well.
Isn't Germanic a branch of Persian? I thought we clarified this issue in other thread.Embarrassed

Shhhhhhh! We're trying to hide the fact.Evil Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 14:36

I think everything is said. but I like to say somehing as well :D

If you compare two languages you'll always have similarities. And if we remember that Celtic culture reached till Krakow it isn't impossible that Celtic words came to slavic languages or exactly via Venetian languages into Slavic or perhaps even the other way to Celtic languages. But of course, if we compare those words, we should also show the indoeuropean stem of those words. On the other hand it isn't a mystery that Celtic on the Islands is different to those of the continent. The continental one is first of all older than the British sources and the second point is that the British Islands had a pre-Celtic population that had influence on their Celtic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 15:54
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

I started to search online for this subject when I discovered that "Yes" in Irish is "Ta" i.e. almost the same with "Da" of Slavic languages.

Then I found this article. However, it claims that ancient European Celtic languages did relate to Slavic but not to the languages of the British Isles.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/CeltoSlavic-Similarities-Pavel-Serafimov

 

 
Are you sure there is "yes" in irish? When I was learning the language (not that I can speak it, or remember much beyond some simple pleasantries learned by rote memorization) it was expressly beaten into our skulls that these definitive articles (yes/no) didn't exist. There are native speakers here though certainly..   


Edited by Goban - 16 Jan 2010 at 15:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 15:59
I'm not sure. I do not know Irish. But that what I read. I also say a web page of internet poll regarding some EU referendum where there was "Ta" clearly meaning "Yes" as it was evident from the English version of the site.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 12:43
I always wanted to learn Irish. As far as I know, yes doesn't exist in Irish
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 15:20
I don't know. This is the comment about the Irish website I saw.
 
 
Because of the Irish government's dual language policy, referendum ballot papers have printed boxes with the response in both Irish and English. One box reads: Ta/Yes, the other Nil/No.


Edited by Sarmat - 18 Jan 2010 at 15:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2010 at 11:00
I may have the answer on this one. I had dinner with a couple of Irish friends last night, one of them reasonably fluent in Irish, and this is what emerges:
 
a) Traditionally and formally Irish has no word for 'yes'.
b) Habitually where one would expecz 'yes', Irish speakers will say 'It is' or 'I am' or something appropriate. They even do this speaking English. ('Are you going to Mass, Paddy?' 'I am' - 'Is it Thursday, Bridget?' 'It is')
c) 'Ta' is in its prime meaning Irish for 'I am' ('It is is something like 'tia' or 'cha'). It can also indicate something like 'I want' - i.e. 'I am for'.
d) So 'Ta' is written on the ballot boxes.
 
However, you can look at it as though Irish is in the process of evolving to use 'ta' to mean'yes', just as the Latin languages (also originally yesless) evolved to use 'sic' or some derivative to mean yes. (And French, idiosynchratically. evolved to use 'oui', originally meaning 'heard'.)
 
For that matter English 'yes' originally meant something like 'so be it'. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2016 at 13:08
It is not sensible to try to compare languages on the basis of single words, or we'd know, for instance, that the Chinese and 'Welsh' people were fundamentally opposed because kai in Gwo Yeu means open and cau in Cymraeg means close.    And it is, no, certainly not traditional to say 'Yes' in Celtic languages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 2016 at 18:13
I would humbly suggest looking up Indo-European.  Celtic and Slavic (or Balto-Slavic) are subfamilies of the Indo-European family of languages.  I believe that grammatical structure is probably more important for purposes of comparison, than a limited list of similar vocabulary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 12:47
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I would humbly suggest looking up Indo-European.  Celtic and Slavic (or Balto-Slavic) are subfamilies of the Indo-European family of languages.  I believe that grammatical structure is probably more important for purposes of comparison, than a limited list of similar vocabulary.
   Yes, I know.    In the same way, Irish and Cymraeg are related rather more closely, and although we have a word for 'Yes', it is seldom used in answers to questions.   I'd guess that the original language answered questions fully too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 18:29
T and d or tel-ta and del-ta are the same thing. When you go back past Linear A or B and p and q brythonic you can find why Elizabeth Wayland-Barber says the languages of the Talamakand or Urumchi most resemble those of NW Europe and by pass the whole area in between. Browse for my thread on the Tamil Siddhar for more including Clyde Winters a top linguist. Sanskrit is not an original script (see Jones proving similar Greek syntax) there were glyphic alphabets in Ilavarta, Harrapa or Mohenjo-Daro akin to Rongorongo which has more research needed. For an intensive study see Ogham and Aymara which will introduce you to what is in the Song of Amergin.
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The movement of adventurous people who can handle the vigors and challenges of Ice and Snow is hard for me to limit. My nephew will be diving under the ice after walking for thirty days in the Ungava Bay region this month - see his website The Adventurer for updates.

In the following jpeg you will see a shaman's drum with pictographic markings including a building with a cross or steeple on top. In North America these representations of man and how the energy of the cosmos enters man are done in rock kiosk forms. There are near runic and half Ogham art glyphs including what could be a "p' or Fupark (AKA futhark). It could be a tract but does not have enough symbology due to repetition of the teepees or something which looks like teepees. Nat Geo and S-A have said people crossed the Ice to America as much as 30,000 years ago.

This is taken from art done when Carl Linnaeus returned from Lapland in Northern Sweden a long time ago.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...trumma_052.png
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As I have pointed out before Tara is the sacred mountain or original spiritual site for many northern Kelts (Finn and the Fianna or Phoenicians) and later what became Druidic thought. The name is found in the area of Sybaris and now we have another connection backwards and forwards to the Trojan War exodus including the Sons of Aeneas and the Brutti.

Further work today brings more to the above and fills another step in the Greek language origin or tracing of it back to what developed in the area researched by Gimbutas. It also connects to early Etruria which is important.

It may not excite most people but when you invest your life in the proofing of what relates to Ogham and know you are up against proscriptions galore it sure is nice to find these proofs. A proscription is the kind of thing which seeks to eliminate a person or knowledge system just as was done against Druids and Ogham.

In the following jpeg you will see a shaman's drum with pictographic markings including a building with a cross or steeple on top. In North America these representations of man and how the energy of the cosmos enters man are done in rock kiosk forms. There are near runic and half Ogham art glyphs including what could be a "p' or a letter starting with what is called the Fupark (AKA futhark). It could be a tract but does not have enough symbology due to repetition of the teepees or something which looks like teepees. Nat Geo and S-A have said people crossed the Ice to America as much as 30,000 years ago.

This is taken from art done when Carl Linnaeus returned from Lapland in Northern Sweden a long time ago.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...trumma_052.png

Looking further into a Runic connection I noticed a Greek connection in Wikipedia. It is a script which shows up in the region of the Brutti and Pythagoras. It is said the scripts are Phoenician which I know is true but this seems pretty interesting to find where a Druid encampment was. Tara is the name of a city a little ways north and the script is connected with Etruscan as well. It is also Bardic or poetic, and that is so interesting to find under the Runic given the dating being older than the Runic dates they give. My research tells me they are wrong about the dates because they are focused on the Fupark which was not part of early Runes or Ogham.

"Euboean[edit]


The inscription of the so-called Cup of Nestor, found in Ischia; Euboean alphabet, 8th century BC.
The Euboean alphabet was used in the cities of Eretria and Chalkis and in related colonies in southern Italy, notably in Cumae and in Pithekoussai. It was through this variant that the Greek alphabet was transmitted to Italy, where it gave rise to the Old Italic alphabets, including Etruscan and ultimately the Latin alphabet. Some of the distinctive features of the Latin as compared to the standard Greek script are already present in the Euboean model.[34]

The Euboean alphabet belonged to the "western" ("red") type. It had Χ = /ks/ and Ψ = /kʰ/. Like most early variants it also lacked Ω, and used Η for the consonant /h/ rather than for the vowel /ɛː/. It also kept the archaic letters digamma (Ϝ) = /w/ and qoppa (Ϙ) = /k/. San (Ϻ) = /s/ was not normally used in writing, but apparently still transmitted as part of the alphabet, because it occurs in abecedaria found in Italy and was later adopted by Etruscan.[34]

Like Athens, Euboea had a form of "Λ" that resembled a Latin L and a form of "Σ" that resembled a Latin S. Other elements foreshadowing the Latin forms include "Γ" shaped like a pointed "C" (Greek Gamma pointed.svg), "Δ" shaped like a pointed "D" (Greek Delta 04.svg), and "Ρ" shaped like "R" (Greek Rho 03.svg).[34]

The classicist Barry B. Powell has proposed that Euboea may have been where the Greek alphabet was first employed, c. 775-750 BC, and that it may have been invented specifically for the purpose of recording epic poetry.[35]"



Edited by Robert Baird - 28 Mar 2016 at 20:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2016 at 03:59
he is right on about the Euboean script.  Too bad he couldn't play nice with others:(  
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