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Is 'The Stolen Generation' a lie?

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    Posted: 15 Feb 2014 at 12:04
Over many generations, Australian governments have implemented programs to improve the lot of Australian Aborigines.

The so called "Stolen Generation" was a program where Aboriginal children were moved closer to white settlements and were educated as white children were in an attempt to give them better opportunities in life. However well intentioned, it was perhaps not the best decision made with regard to Aboriginal education.

To now claim that it was in some way sinister, is to deny the truth.

There have been many programs designed to assist the Aborigines to cope in the modern world, but few have been successes.

It must be remembered that the Australian Aborigines were, at white settlement a little over two hundred years ago, the last living example of stone age man.

Edited by toyomotor - 15 Feb 2014 at 12:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 01:24
Why to get upset about Leonardo? We know the guy was accussed of nefando sin...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 23:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Now you're trolling.


Trolling? Confused
Because I said languages are worth to be preserved?Because I said a language is worth more than a vanity from the West?
Because you wrote "a travesty, like Leonardo's work."
 
That was simply thrown in to provoke an angry response from anyone with sense. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 21:43
Cosign.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 20:21

Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by gcle2003

 

Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things.

While you, in your religious fervour, just want to push on and preserve things. What you aren't prepared to do is help people get out of the culture they are trapped in, which is what they need.

 

Its quite arrogant to say that people are trapped in a culture. If they are, are you not that too? Trapped in a western culture with all its shortcomings and, sometimes, plain idiocy.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

They're trapped in it if they have no choice but to continue in it, which is what you want. I'm not 'trapped' in my culture partly because it is a culture with many many choices, but alos because I have no desire to change: I did when young, so I did what I could to change it, both personally and through politics.

 

Actually they have choices too, if the choices is not taken away from them by intruders. Their chanses for survival and development is much higher if they are to keep their own land and their cultures as a basis for development. If they are displaced and uprooted their choices diminishes seriously, often meaning dispersement and assimilation into a third world slum life, or even extinction. There are many examples of that.

 

Originally posted by gcle2003

Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.

Well there you condemtn yourself out of your own mouth. They are far too intricate and difficult to be left in the hands of politically driven fanatical missionaries like yourself.

 

Well, I do not invade anyones territory,

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You never leave Sweden? That could explain a lot. Anyway you don't need to 'invade' territory if you can preach over the internet or through books, for instance,

 

Yes, I leave Sweden now and then but I do not forcefully invade others territory, just busting in without being invited, or force myself upon others. 

And spreading information is not to invade anyone.

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

When you lost a language, a paradigm, a cosmology and a spirit is gone. That's a tragedy worst that burning the Mona Lisa.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why?  

 

Because a language, a whole world of cosmology, thousands of years of knowledge and thinking and a heritage of human relations and adaptations is so much more than just one painting.

 



Edited by Carcharodon - 21 Jan 2011 at 21:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 09:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Now you're trolling.


Trolling? Confused
Because I said languages are worth to be preserved?Because I said a language is worth more than a vanity from the West? Listen to this song and just guess what language it is.



Don't you know? It doesn't matter. It is unique, and that's what counts.


Edited by pinguin - 21 Jan 2011 at 09:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 07:11
Now you're trolling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 03:34
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

[
Then you're an insensitive Philistine.


Me?? An insensitive Philistine LOL

Nope sir, but I believe a language carry a lot more richness, traditions, cosmologies and ideas, than just a simple painting of a travesty, like Leonardo's work. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 02:48
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
 
Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things.
While you, in your religious fervour, just want to push on and preserve things. What you aren't prepared to do is help people get out of the culture they are trapped in, which is what they need.
 
Its quite arrogant to say that people are trapped in a culture. If they are, are you not that too? Trapped in a western culture with all its shortcomings and, sometimes, plain idiocy.
They're trapped in it if they have no choice but to continue in it, which is what you want. I'm not 'trapped' in my culture partly because it is a culture with many many choices, but alos because I have no desire to change: I did when young, so I did what I could to change it, both personally and through politics.
Quote  
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.
Well there you condemtn yourself out of your own mouth. They are far too intricate and difficult to be left in the hands of politically driven fanatical missionaries like yourself.
 
Well, I do not invade anyones territory,
You never leave Sweden? That could explain a lot. Anyway you don't need to 'invade' territory if you can preach over the internet or through books, for instance. 
Quote
 I do not jump on indigenous peoples with the bible in my hand,
Yes you do. It's just not the Christian/Jewish Bible, or the Koran
Quote
 or try to take away their land from them, or try to steal their natural resources, or displace them, or assimilate them into some third world powerty culture.
You just want to leave them in their third world poverty culture, I know that. For that you don't need to assimilate or take their land. However what you are doing you are doing because you think it is right, just like the Christian and Islamic missionaries. Which puts you and them in the came category.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 02:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 


Who is going to judge. You? Give me a break.
Whoever is relevant to the situation. Doesn't matter what you or I or Carchodon or anyone else except the people involved or the people paying for it think is good or bad.
Quote
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 


The same. Who judges it?
Same question, same answer.
Quote  
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 


Languages exist. Losing them is a tragedy. I better burn all the mediocre art galleries of Europe rather than lost a single endangered language.
Then you're an insensitive Philistine.
Quote
When you lost a language, a paradigm, a cosmology and a spirit is gone. That's a tragedy worst that burning the Mona Lisa.
Why?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 23:22
I can not, it is a fixed connection not belonging to me personally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 23:16
Plug out the internet connection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 22:55
Well, right now I am at home (not in my house for the moment, but at least in Sweden).
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You are an agitator. Swedish GO HOME!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 22:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Well, I do not invade anyones territory,


You do. You interfiere in the internal affairs of soverain countries.
 
Actually I just assist people who ask me to to spread some information and similar things.
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Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Well, I do not invade anyones territory,


You do. You interfiere in the internal affairs of soverain countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 22:01
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
 
Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things.
While you, in your religious fervour, just want to push on and preserve things. What you aren't prepared to do is help people get out of the culture they are trapped in, which is what they need.
 
Its quite arrogant to say that people are trapped in a culture. If they are, are you not that too? Trapped in a western culture with all its shortcomings and, sometimes, plain idiocy.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.
Well there you condemtn yourself out of your own mouth. They are far too intricate and difficult to be left in the hands of politically driven fanatical missionaries like yourself.
 
Well, I do not invade anyones territory, I do not jump on indigenous peoples with the bible in my hand, or try to take away their land from them, or try to steal their natural resources, or displace them, or assimilate them into some third world powerty culture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 21:56
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 


Who is going to judge. You? Give me a break.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 


The same. Who judges it?
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 


Languages exist. Losing them is a tragedy. I better burn all the mediocre art galleries of Europe rather than lost a single endangered language.

When you lost a language, a paradigm, a cosmology and a spirit is gone. That's a tragedy worst that burning the Mona Lisa.



Edited by pinguin - 20 Jan 2011 at 21:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 21:49
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 
 
Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things.
While you, in your religious fervour, just want to push on and preserve things. What you aren't prepared to do is help people get out of the culture they are trapped in, which is what they need.
Quote
It can be rather hard, without special knowledge and competence, to judge, or to know (without just giving in to prejudice) which part of another culture is good or bad, and even harder to know in what way it (or some part of it) could be modified, to what extent it can be modified and what to replace parts of it with, and still securing its survival.
'It can be rather hard' is pussyfooting. It is hard. Nevertheless you should try and do it in an objective fashion, without all this bnombastic propoaganda against 'missionaries' and 'religion'.
Quote
Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.
Well there you condemtn yourself out of your own mouth. They are far too intricate and difficult to be left in the hands of politically driven fanatical missionaries like yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 21:12
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Destruction of PEOPLE is bad. Destruction of CULTURE is by no means always bas: in fact given the superiority of life in the 21st century to life in most places in most times, cultural change has on the whole been overwhelmingly successful. 'Indigenous' peoples should be given the same rights of access to those benefits as other people have.
 
A culture often means a lot of knowledge, a special kind of living and an important part of human diversity. To loose such thing is also bad.
Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 
 
Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things. It can be rather hard, without special knowledge and competence, to judge, or to know (without just giving in to prejudice) which part of another culture is good or bad, and even harder to know in what way it (or some part of it) could be modified, to what extent it can be modified and what to replace parts of it with, and still securing its survival. Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 20:46
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Destruction of PEOPLE is bad. Destruction of CULTURE is by no means always bas: in fact given the superiority of life in the 21st century to life in most places in most times, cultural change has on the whole been overwhelmingly successful. 'Indigenous' peoples should be given the same rights of access to those benefits as other people have.
 
A culture often means a lot of knowledge, a special kind of living and an important part of human diversity. To loose such thing is also bad.
Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 11:21
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


You just have to work harder to catch up then, don't you?


LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 05:47
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One must remember that churches and missionary organisations often have a rather large and active propaganda apparatus that will do everything to try to smear the ones who critizise their activities.

And you don't?
Quote
So from them one can just expect different versions and narratives. After all the Christian propagandists have had nearly 2000 years of practicing and refining their skills.

You just have to work harder to catch up then, don't you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 02:16
One must remember that churches and missionary organisations often have a rather large and active propaganda apparatus that will do everything to try to smear the ones who critizise their activities. So from them one can just expect different versions and narratives. After all the Christian propagandists have had nearly 2000 years of practicing and refining their skills.

Edited by Carcharodon - 20 Jan 2011 at 02:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 02:06
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You do have trouble finding respectable authorities don't you?


LOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 01:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
But certain structures can change more or less, they can change gradually or suddenly. And sometimes they can be totally overthrown, leading to collapse or desintegration of a society. Also a culture does ofcourse disappear with the physical destruction of the people harboring it.

The poont you've just conceded is that it disappears WITHOUT such physical destruction anyway.
 
Cultures can change, and people are replaced over the years, but still there can be a strong continuity regarding important parts of the culture. Such continuity will ofcourse be broken if a people are dispersed and assimilated.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Destruction of PEOPLE is bad. Destruction of CULTURE is by no means always bas: in fact given the superiority of life in the 21st century to life in most places in most times, cultural change has on the whole been overwhelmingly successful. 'Indigenous' peoples should be given the same rights of access to those benefits as other people have.
 
A culture often means a lot of knowledge, a special kind of living and an important part of human diversity. To loose such thing is also bad.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


One book about one tribe (Fock), and then someone (Persson) who had to confess he had just taken someone else's statements as correct without checking?
[QUOTE]These accusations were picked up and repeated by a Swedish anthropologist named Lars Persson. Olson’s book was a Christian best-seller and he had become greatly admired. These accusations were of some concern to the Christian community in Sweden, including a journalist named Andres Küng. Küng traveled to Colombia to check them out.

He found that the big house was a communal one, where Olson had one hammock among many. The Motilones had their own gardens, set their own schedules and provided for themselves. Olson had helped them get a school and a reasonably well stocked clinic. He did not live in luxury or idleness. Bobarishora had asked to go see Olson’s homeland, just as Olson had come to his. The Motilones with whom Küng shared Jaulin’s accusations repudiated them. The word Motilone was commonly used to refer to several tribes, including the Barí. Alexander Clark also denied Jaulin’s story. When Küng shared these things with Persson, Persson apologized for simply repeating what Jaulin had said.

As for Lars Persson do not forget that he worked for years among the so called Motilones, especially groups like Erokas and Marakkas, and also among neighbouring peoples. He also worked in the Vaupes Caqueta area in Colombia and studied the circumstances in Peru and Venezuela.
 
Do not put too much trust in second hand narratives of Kungs treatment of this story. And above all, do not put to much trust in Olsons self glorifying stories.
 
And also, do not put too much trust in something called Theopedia.
 
Otherwise there are also other anthropologists that have studied the impact of mission, such as for example Victor Daniel Bonilla who studied the catholic Putumayo mission in Colombia and wrote a classical study of the subject.
 
Persson also worked with the Arhuacos in Colombia (who actually once threw out the catholic missionaries from their territory). Also the writer B A Runnerstrom has worked with aid and humanitarian work among Arhuacos and and also whitnessed about the circumstances of the expulson of missionaries.
 
In the documents and reports  from IWGIA one can read more about cultural destruction in both Latin America and other places. Among other studies there are reports made by anthropologists about the activities of American evangelist missionaries and missionary groups like SIL. Also a group like New Tribes mission and their destructive work in Paraguay is described in an interesting study.
 
Survival also write about hate propaganda spread by missionaries from USA about Amerindian groups in Brazil. The purpose of the propaganda is to coerce authorities to instigate legislation making it possible to take away native children from their parents. This campaign have lead to protests among for example the Yawalapiti and Mebengokre Kayapo peoples.
 
And as for myself, I have also got information about the activities of missionaries from contacts among native peoples in South America. Those contacts I see as more thrustworthy than missionary propagandists.
 
 



Edited by Carcharodon - 20 Jan 2011 at 01:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:51
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Actually if one shall generalize, nothing concerning humans ever stay the same (even the humans themselves are replaced continually over time in a society).

That's one of the points we have been trying to get you to see. It's nice to have got somewhere at last.

So change is natural and rational and frequently welcome. Resisting change when people desire change is pointless.
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But certain structures can change more or less, they can change gradually or suddenly. And sometimes they can be totally overthrown, leading to collapse or desintegration of a society. Also a culture does ofcourse disappear with the physical destruction of the people harboring it.

The poont you've just conceded is that it disappears WITHOUT such physical destruction anyway.

Destruction of PEOPLE is bad. Destruction of CULTURE is by no means always bas: in fact given the superiority of life in the 21st century to life in most places in most times, cultural change has on the whole been overwhelmingly successful. 'Indigenous' peoples should be given the same rights of access to those benefits as other people have.
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As for some peoples in South America patterns of destruction have been observed that often have similarities.

Now you're just offon your silly kick of 'some...have been' or 'some... may be.' Where and when people have been abused or persecuted then that was wrong and if it is happening now it should be rectified. However (a) most of the time they have not been abused and persecuted and (b) rthe measures you propose are just as much abuse as any others.
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One can there see that the activity of missionaries, exploiting companies, settlers and authorities impacts different parts of society. One has observed that for example the power structure often is most vulnerable when confronted with the power apparatus of western society. One can see that the social structure (including cultural traditions, religion, societal cohesion) is more resilient and a collapse is often preceeded by different degrees and forms of syncretism. The collapse of the economical structure can many times be the most serious, affecting health, livelihood, subsitence and also the other parts of the culture.
 
There have been observations that tell us that there in many cases in Guyana, Colombia, Venezuela, Peru and Brazil have taken missionaries and other interests in average around five or six years to culturally more or less annihilate an indigenous population consisting of around 500 persons. Some times the destruction were much faster when it was coupled with sheer physical destruction in the shape of violence and forced displacement.
 
See for example works of Persson or Niels Fock for further details.

One book about one tribe (Fock), and then someone (Persson) who had to confess he had just taken someone else's statements as correct without checking?
Quote These accusations were picked up and repeated by a Swedish anthropologist named Lars Persson. Olson’s book was a Christian best-seller and he had become greatly admired. These accusations were of some concern to the Christian community in Sweden, including a journalist named Andres Küng. Küng traveled to Colombia to check them out.

He found that the big house was a communal one, where Olson had one hammock among many. The Motilones had their own gardens, set their own schedules and provided for themselves. Olson had helped them get a school and a reasonably well stocked clinic. He did not live in luxury or idleness. Bobarishora had asked to go see Olson’s homeland, just as Olson had come to his. The Motilones with whom Küng shared Jaulin’s accusations repudiated them. The word Motilone was commonly used to refer to several tribes, including the Barí. Alexander Clark also denied Jaulin’s story. When Küng shared these things with Persson, Persson apologized for simply repeating what Jaulin had said.

You do have trouble finding respectable authorities don't you?


Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:50
Where? Where are the refferences? The links? How we can verify your sources are trustful?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Why don't you show the cases, so we can verify if you are making things up?

In my case, I don't trust gringos with strange last names.
 
References to the cases and peoples that have studied them are above. And I have mentioned several other cases before in other threads.
 
One example is also the groups of the Wai Wai in Guyana that Niels Fock have studied.
 
The names are not strange.


Edited by Carcharodon - 20 Jan 2011 at 00:52
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