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How nature was destroyed in Asia and Europe

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    Posted: 04 Mar 2011 at 10:42
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Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, its always easy to dismiss research and knowledge from a point of ignorance.
 
Why is it so difficult for your grasp the fact Carcharadon that in terms of true science, an ecosystem is a descriptive neutral term that has neither an ideal setting nor demands stasis (a concept that contradicts all scientific understandings). For one thing even an elementary grasp of a nebulosity such as Nature demands the recognition that it will always be in some state of flux. Stockholm is as much an ecosystem as the Serengeti Plain, hence your deliriums over speciation within those ambits becomes nonsensical with just a minimal understanding that Nature (your it) is in itself the grand catalyst for extinctions. As I mentioned before, Conservation has little to do with your yammer over obscure insects or even mammals that have "specialized" themselves to a particular environment that on its own will become transformative with respect to climate and planetary happenstances. If one is frankly honest, one has to admit that if there is a consistent theme to Nature such a theme involves accepting that natural processes are in and of their own inimical to such clap-trap as biodiversity. One can not escape the fact that of all the distinct species that have existed through the moments in time of the terrestrial orb, 99% of them are already extinct, most long before Homo ever made an appearance. Would Man be doomed if through his instrumentalities the Norwegian rat disappeared from the scene? I highly doubt so given the fact that this species might be considered a parasite in an urban ecosystem. I surmise that perhaps you are not too fond of Felix domesticus; however, even it "understands" there is no such thing as stasis in Nature and has adapted to as well as manipulated its environment quite adequately so as to achieve survival.


Edited by drgonzaga - 05 Mar 2011 at 00:35
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

IN regard to that list of quotes, it's pointless just to repeat other people saying the same thing you're saying. Non-falsifiable - metaphysical - statements are non-falsifiable statements no matter how often they are repeated.
 
I don't expect you to believe in the Christian God just because there are loads of Christians around. Why should I believe in your God just because there are many of his followers around recently (it being a nice fashionable 'I'm better than you are' kind of bandwaggon to jump on).
 
Well, its always easy to dismiss research and knowledge from a point of ignorance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2011 at 05:57
IN regard to that list of quotes, it's pointless just to repeat other people saying the same thing you're saying. Non-falsifiable - metaphysical - statements are non-falsifiable statements no matter how often they are repeated.
 
I don't expect you to believe in the Christian God just because there are loads of Christians around. Why should I believe in your God just because there are many of his followers around recently (it being a nice fashionable 'I'm better than you are' kind of bandwaggon to jump on).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2011 at 01:56
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That the complexity of the organism has increased during history and prehistory does not mean that there is greater diversity of organisms. We don't have any count of types of organism to tell us one way or the other. 
 
Seen in a longer perspective diversity has increased (at least to a certain point) because the amount of suitable niches have increased. New organisms and their transformations of the environment (together with different abiotic factors) can lead to new habitats and new ways to exploit them.


Edited by Carcharodon - 03 Mar 2011 at 02:00
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Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
But still there is an enormous diversity and variation in nature. We are still discovering new species every year in all sorts of environments.
 
Evolution and adaptation also give rise to biodiversity (else we would not have such diversity as we have).
 
If you want to know anything of biodiversity you can read Edward O Wilsons book Biodiversity.


Who cares about biodiversity. It seems your objective is to preserve planet earth for animals.
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Actully it is many times so that a reduced biodiversity and disturbed ecological systems give rise to more diseases and also increases the susceptibility to pests and vermin.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

No it isn't. You're just making this stuff up. Otherwise you'd be able to give instances. Give me a case where eliminating a species for instance increased vulnerability to a disease.

 

Why do you so stubbornly comment about a topic you know nothing about? Biodiversity is indeed important in protecting us from increased exposure for pathogens and pests.

Reduced biodiversity and disturbed ecological systems give rise to more diseases and also increases the susceptibility to pests and vermin.

Just some introduction:

Plant and animal extinctions are detrimental to your health. That's the conclusion of a paper published in the journal Nature by scientists who studied the link between biodiversity and infectious diseases.

Species loss in ecosystems such as forests and fields results in increases in pathogens, or disease-causing organisms, the researchers found.

Felicia Keesing et al ,2010. "Impacts of biodiversity on the emergence and transmission of infectious diseases". Nature, 2010; 468

 

As species disappear, infectious diseases rise in humans and throughout the animal kingdom, so extinctions directly affect our health and chances for survival as a species.

 

Platt, John, 2010: "Humans are more at risk from diseases as biodiversity disappears." Scientific American dec  2010

 

 

About pests:

 

Pest control is another key ecosystem service underpinned by biodiversity; it is greatly determined by the abundance of natural enemies of the pest species involved. Improved pest control is dependent on a diversity of natural enemies of pests, and non-crop habitats are fundamental for the presence and survival of these biological control agents (predators, parasitoids).

 

With the loss of biodiversity in both natural and agricultural systems comes the loss of other ecosystem services. In addition to food, fibre and water provisioning, regulating services such as air, water and climate regulation, water purification, pollination and pest control, as well as providing resilience against natural hazards and disasters and environmental change, are among the numerous examples of ecosystem services being lost under increasing intensification and expansion of agriculture.

Information From UNEP (United Nations Environment Programme)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2011 at 01:19
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Evolution and adaptation also give rise to biodiversity (else we would not have such diversity as we have).
Genetic mutation increases biodiversity. Natural selection decreases it. Evolution depends on both.
 
That the complexity of the organism has increased during history and prehistory does not mean that there is greater diversity of organisms. We don't have any count of types of organism to tell us one way or the other.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2011 at 01:15
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It also increases the number of possibilities of us running into an epidemic disaster like AIDS, which is a good example of an increase in biodiversity. Another one is the use of gene manipulation to increase biodiversity, thereby introducing the possibility of harming food sources. Reducing biodiversity reduces our vulnerability to disease. Not only that it positively feeds us, by allowing us to grow useful plants rather than permit the biosphere to become a wasteland of weeds, as you would like.  

 

Actully it is many times so that a reduced biodiversity and disturbed ecological systems give rise to more diseases and also increases the susceptibility to pests and vermin.

No it isn't. You're just making this stuff up. Otherwise you'd be able to give instances. Give me a case where eliminating a species for instance increased vulnerability to a disease. Every increase in biodiversity puts more strain on the human immune system and increases the possibility of its breakdown. Cases where increasing biodiversity cause tragedy are pretty numerous, including AIDS, the 'Spanish' flu of 1918 and the regular mutations therafter, the changing varieties of plague, whereas decreasing it through the use of antibiotics and antisepsis only save lives.
Quote
A high biodiversity and a rich variety reduces vulnerability in ecological systems and our own vulnerability against unwanted ecological problems.

 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

There must be an introductory book or two to logical analysis around for you to read also. Try Weldon's Vocabulary of Politics, for instance. Old, but sensible.  

 

We were talking about biodiversity and ecology, just study some books about that so you can learn something. It seems that you just like to discuss for the sake of discussion itself, without knowing anything about the subject at hand.

Bit you are the one who knows nothing about the subject in hand, even on your own side of the argument. If you did you could come up with evidence and examples instead of a continuing string of the empty non-falsifiable metaphysical statements of your creed.
 
You haven't given one single example of how increasing biodiversity helps people: just pointless assertions that it does. In fact it's fairly easy to find examples of it doing so - developing antbiotics for instance: but even there the result of continual development of antibiotics is the increase of resistant varieties of infectious agent.
 
The truth of the matter is that increase or decreasing biodiversity, either of them, can be helpful or harmful or completely irrelevant: everything depends on the specific case at issue. However, ease of control usually benefits from reduction in diversity: as he cyberneticists have it, control systems must have requisite variety to be effective: i.e. as the diversity of what you need to control goes up, so does the difficulty of controlling it.  

 

Quote

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Please study something on the use and abuse of language before you think. And then think before you write. And maybe we could discuss something on a sensible and rational basis instead of one of religious dogmatism.   

 

Well, since it seemed that Penguin did not have any clue about ecology I just encouraged him to study the subject before writing a lot of meaningless rubbish.

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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Biodiversity again, Carcha? You don't have idea what is it and for what is worth. Nature hates diversity. That's what natural selection and evolution is all about: destroying diversity.
 
But still there is an enormous diversity and variation in nature. We are still discovering new species every year in all sorts of environments.
 
Evolution and adaptation also give rise to biodiversity (else we would not have such diversity as we have).
 
If you want to know anything of biodiversity you can read Edward O Wilsons book Biodiversity.


Edited by Carcharodon - 03 Mar 2011 at 01:13
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Biodiversity again, Carcha? You don't have idea what is it and for what is worth. Nature hates diversity. That's what natural selection and evolution is all about: destroying diversity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 23:58
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Rubish is your idea that ecosystems must be preserved pristine and "natural" to survive.
That's not science, but your personal religion to Mama Nature.

 
We use nature all the time, and have done so for millennia, but that do not mean that we shall not strive to preserve its biodiversity and variation.
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Rubish is your idea that ecosystems must be preserved pristine and "natural" to survive.
That's not science, but your personal religion to Mama Nature.

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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It also increases the number of possibilities of us running into an epidemic disaster like AIDS, which is a good example of an increase in biodiversity. Another one is the use of gene manipulation to increase biodiversity, thereby introducing the possibility of harming food sources. Reducing biodiversity reduces our vulnerability to disease. Not only that it positively feeds us, by allowing us to grow useful plants rather than permit the biosphere to become a wasteland of weeds, as you would like.  

 

Actully it is many times so that a reduced biodiversity and disturbed ecological systems give rise to more diseases and also increases the susceptibility to pests and vermin. A high biodiversity and a rich variety reduces vulnerability in ecological systems and our own vulnerability against unwanted ecological problems.

 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

There must be an introductory book or two to logical analysis around for you to read also. Try Weldon's Vocabulary of Politics, for instance. Old, but sensible.  

 

We were talking about biodiversity and ecology, just study some books about that so you can learn something. It seems that you just like to discuss for the sake of discussion itself, without knowing anything about the subject at hand.

 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Please study something on the use and abuse of language before you think. And then think before you write. And maybe we could discuss something on a sensible and rational basis instead of one of religious dogmatism.   

 

Well, since it seemed that Penguin did not have any clue about ecology I just encouraged him to study the subject before writing a lot of meaningless rubbish.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 21:59
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 

Biodiversity is the foundation of most of the things we do. Without biodiversity we would not have any food (or even oxygen) in the first place. Also we would not have many, or any medicines and a lot of other useful substances.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

  Not true at all. True that we need different plants and animals to get by, and indeed enjoy life, but there are hundreds and thousands of species that don't contribute to anything at all.

 

You are totally wrong. With improved methods of analyze, improved technology and improved biological and chemical knowledge we all the time learn us more ways of utilize different life forms, plants, animals, microorganisms, fungi. To abstain from all the possibilities that biodiversity gives us is to rob future generations of the possibilities of utilizing biodiversity in good and ingenious ways. Thats why destroying biodiversity is such a foul crime. It robs ourselves and our descendants of enormous possibilities.

It really should be deemed as a serious crime against humanity.

While killing people or letting them die shouldn't be? That shoould be what? A sacrifice 'to an unknown God'?

Quote  Indeed it has, and it has also serious consequences for us today. Biodiversity is the foundation for our life here. It gives us options and resources. Without biodiversity and the resources it provides us with we would indeed starve. The more we deplete the biodiversity the less options we have, which can get us into serious trouble.

 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That's ridiculous. 'Biodiversity' in anyone sane's language means the variety of life forms on the planet.

 

A great variety of lifeforms increases (as I have explained) the number of possibilities for us to utilize those lifeforms and to adapt to changes in climate and environment. A high biodiversity also reduces vulnerability in ecological systems and our own vulnerability against unwanted ecological problems.

It also increases the number of possibilities of us running into an epidemic disaster like AIDS, which is a good example of an increase in biodiversity. Another one is the use of gene manipulation to increase biodiversity, thereby introducing the possibility of harming food sources. Reducing biodiversity reduces our vulnerability to disease. Not only that it positively feeds us, by allowing us to grow useful plants rather than permit the biosphere to become a wasteland of weeds, as you would like.  
Quote  

As I said, just take some introductory course in ecology and you will understand these issues somewhat better.

Take an introductory course in thinking rationally and you might understand many things better, and be able to see the truth beneath the shimmering veil of self-righteousness .

Quote  

Also read the homepages of such organisations as Greenpeace, WWF, IUCN. You can also read Edvard Wilsons book Biodiversity for an introduction.

There must be an introductory book or two to logical analysis around for you to read also. Try Weldon's Vocabulary of Politics, for instance. Old, but sensible.
Quote  

Please learn something about ecology and about biodiversity before you speek.

Please study something on the use and abuse of language before you think. And then think before you write. And maybe we could discuss something on a sensible and rational basis instead of one of religious dogmatism.


Edited by gcle2003 - 02 Mar 2011 at 22:03
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Biodiversity is the foundation of most of the things we do. Without biodiversity we would not have any food (or even oxygen) in the first place. Also we would not have many, or any medicines and a lot of other useful substances.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

  Not true at all. True that we need different plants and animals to get by, and indeed enjoy life, but there are hundreds and thousands of species that don't contribute to anything at all.

 

You are totally wrong. With improved methods of analyze, improved technology and improved biological and chemical knowledge we all the time learn us more ways of utilize different life forms, plants, animals, microorganisms, fungi. To abstain from all the possibilities that biodiversity gives us is to rob future generations of the possibilities of utilizing biodiversity in good and ingenious ways. Thats why destroying biodiversity is such a foul crime. It robs ourselves and our descendants of enormous possibilities.

It really should be deemed as a serious crime against humanity.

 

 

 

 

Indeed it has, and it has also serious consequences for us today. Biodiversity is the foundation for our life here. It gives us options and resources. Without biodiversity and the resources it provides us with we would indeed starve. The more we deplete the biodiversity the less options we have, which can get us into serious trouble.

 

 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That's ridiculous. 'Biodiversity' in anyone sane's language means the variety of life forms on the planet.

 

A great variety of lifeforms increases (as I have explained) the number of possibilities for us to utilize those lifeforms and to adapt to changes in climate and environment. A high biodiversity also reduces vulnerability in ecological systems and our own vulnerability against unwanted ecological problems.

 

As I said, just take some introductory course in ecology and you will understand these issues somewhat better.

 

Also read the homepages of such organisations as Greenpeace, WWF, IUCN. You can also read Edvard Wilsons book Biodiversity for an introduction.

  

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Nature goes against biodiversity quite often, and life has never perished.

 

Perhaps life itself will survive, but if we will survive we have better to take into considerations the laws of nature and to nurture the ecological systems and the variety of life of our planet. We can already see climatic changes, collapsing fish stocks, overgrowth in lakes, rivers and seas (this is also connected with depletion of fish stocks, among other causes), ruptures in the cycles of water (one of the results of deforestation), disturbances in distribution of sediments and nutrients, increase of some diseases and so on and so on. To disrupt ecological systems and deplete biodiversity have both direct and indirect consequenses, some easy to grasp and directly discernible, others more dificult to foresee.

 

Please learn something about ecology and about biodiversity before you speek.

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 10:50
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Ego emi, PH.D. I like the sound of that Penguin. Not too heavy with the incense please.


Dr. Selfrefference sounds better to you? LOL

Dr Strangelove, could be better, my PHD friend. Big smile
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Nature goes against biodiversity quite often, and life has never perished. Even more, biodiversity can be increased by simply introducing foreign species! For example, today we have more biodiversity in plants and animals in my country than in pre-Columbian times, simply because many species have been introduced, like wheat, rice, pines, eucaliptus, roses, etc., and in the fauna we have cats, cows, horses, pigs, boards, ostriches, emus, goats, beavers, ect. I don't think those intruders make our environment better. Just think about the mutant Brazilian bee, which is invaded the Americas!
So, please, don't use the term biodiversity like something sacred. It can be altered, even increased, artificially.

Edited by pinguin - 02 Mar 2011 at 10:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 04:43
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Biodiversity is jargon! It is as simple as that and anyone employing the term rather than addressing specifics is simply engaging in exercises of obfuscation.
 
One can not escape the consequences nor the gist captured here:
 
The trouble is, some people will read that and take it seriously. Which drives me to consider other approaches to the problem of biodiversity at the intraspecies level. Cry
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 04:38
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Yet again, name some. <sighs and yawns> Another misty slogan.
 
Well, if you had studied some ecology you would know. We are all depending of biodiversity in so many ways it would take thick books to explain. But there are literature for those who bother to study the subject. You can start with a beginners course in ecology.
You copied that sales pitch from the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, the Christian Scientists and the Scientologists, didn't you? Just read our holy book and everything will be revealed to you!
Quote  
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Not reducing biodiversity would very soon starve us all to death. Which of course, being anti-human, doesn't worry you but it does worry other people.
 
Biodiversity is the foundation of most of the things we do. Without biodiversity we would not have any food (or even oxygen) in the first place. Also we would not have many, or any medicines and a lot of other useful substances.
Not true at all. True that we need different plants and animals to get by, and indeed enjoy life, but there are hundreds and thousands of species that don't contribute to anything at all.
Quote
And biodiversity will get more and more important. We will be able to get more and new substances, chemicals, food products, medicines. A rich variety will give us alternative foods in times of climatic changes and changing environment. Biodiversity can give us new sources of energy, or give us the means to extract energy in new ways. Even engineering does benefit from a rich variety of living organisms to draw ideas from in fields like biomimetics.
Dream on. I wish you'd shut up about it thought. Or prodcue some kind of evidence to back up what you're claiming.
Quote  
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 In hundreds of thousands of years it hasn't.
 
Indeed it has, and it has also serious consequences for us today. Biodiversity is the foundation for our life here. It gives us options and resources. Without biodiversity and the resources it provides us with we would indeed starve. The more we deplete the biodiversity the less options we have, which can get us into serious trouble.
That's ridiculous. 'Biodiversity' in anyone sane's language means the variety of life forms on the planet. There's no benefit to be got from simply maximising that number. Some life forms are beneficial, some are harmful and most are irrelevant. Maximising biodiversity means fostering the development and growth of lethal bacteria and viruses. Which is about as callous an attitude towards your fellow man that I can imagine.
 
I prefer the Christian Scientists, the Mormons and even the Jehovah's Witnesses: least they have some respsct for human beings.
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Biodiversity is jargon! It is as simple as that and anyone employing the term rather than addressing specifics is simply engaging in exercises of obfuscation.
 
One can not escape the consequences nor the gist captured here:
 
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Yet again, name some. <sighs and yawns> Another misty slogan.
 
Well, if you had studied some ecology you would know. We are all depending of biodiversity in so many ways it would take thick books to explain. But there are literature for those who bother to study the subject. You can start with a beginners course in ecology.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Not reducing biodiversity would very soon starve us all to death. Which of course, being anti-human, doesn't worry you but it does worry other people.
 
Biodiversity is the foundation of most of the things we do. Without biodiversity we would not have any food (or even oxygen) in the first place. Also we would not have many, or any medicines and a lot of other useful substances.
And biodiversity will get more and more important. We will be able to get more and new substances, chemicals, food products, medicines. A rich variety will give us alternative foods in times of climatic changes and changing environment. Biodiversity can give us new sources of energy, or give us the means to extract energy in new ways. Even engineering does benefit from a rich variety of living organisms to draw ideas from in fields like biomimetics.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 In hundreds of thousands of years it hasn't.
 
Indeed it has, and it has also serious consequences for us today. Biodiversity is the foundation for our life here. It gives us options and resources. Without biodiversity and the resources it provides us with we would indeed starve. The more we deplete the biodiversity the less options we have, which can get us into serious trouble.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 01:31
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

The environment is one thing. the protection of biodiversity is a totally different one. Mankind benefits from reducing biodiversity; it does not benefit from harming the environment in certain ways (though that doesn't mean that changing environment is necessaily bad. It's frequently good, just as the elimination of the smallpox and polio viruses would be.)
 
Your trouble is that you paint misty religious slogans on your banners with no concern for your fellow humans, and expect everyone else to follow you, without your giving any justification.
 
We are all depending of a rich biodiversity in a lot of ways.
Yet again, name some. <sighs and yawns> Another misty slogan.
Quote
 Reducing biodiversity can create serious side effects that many times are not predictable, creating unforseen problems for us.
Not reducing biodiversity would very soon starve us all to death. Which of course, being anti-human, doesn't worry you but it does worry other people.
 
And again - name some of these myterious side effects that might occur if, unpredictably, there might be unforeseen (and apparently unkown) problems. With that attirtude we'd all be still livng in Africa as hunter gatherers, which I suppsoe though would be your ideal existence. But you don't go off and do it. I wonder why. (Remmeber you cannot have agriculture without reduciing biodiversity; in effect it is what the word 'agriculture' means.
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 Also biodiversity is an enourmous resource for humanity.
No it isn't. The useful animals and plants are but the others aren't, except I guess for aesthetic purposes. The rest aren't a 'resource for humanity' at all, and many of them are directly harmful to humanity.
 
I suppose you'll be agitating for the shut down of all medical research and treatment on the basis that killing germs and viruses reduces biodiversity, whereas letting the odd million or so humans die doesn't matter.
Quote
To decrease biodiversity is to deprive ourself and future generations of a lot of options and potentially valuable resources. We are all part of a complicated ecological web, and the more we destroy the web, the more it will effect us negatively.
In hundreds of thousands of years it hasn't.
 
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To destroy biodiversity is indeed to deprive future generations of the richness of life itself. It ought to be a criminal offense.
Certainly encouraging the spread of deadly or disabling diseases the way you want to do should be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 01:13
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

It seems then our popints of view differs radically!  First:You are not at all right there is that many european "hippies", neither do they come in hordes to South America. (I know noone).


There are many in Patagonia, trying to stop the development of dams to generate electricity.

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:


Do they have "any right to open their mouth"? If there is what is often labelled "freedom of expression" then of course they have.


I was thinking in the "look who is talking" idea. So, Europeans destroy theirs environment but they don't want we destroy ours? Confused

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:


 Another thing, though it is not a major point: Lots of South Americans are themselves, or are descendants of "intruders".


Baloney. We are natives.

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:


You also ask "why can East Asia and Europe do anything with their environment" .Then I may ask if You envy or admire destruction? 


I envy theirs development. Also, it seems they have some rights that are denied to us. Freedom to use our countries, for instance.


What matter is that our environment is our internal business. Nothing else.
I will start again where You end:try to see it from another point of view. I do not see Latin Americans, or anybody else, are or should be "deprived of their freedom". What is really the case is no land or continent can any longer reasonably be seen as an "asteroid of its own" - and isolated entity that noone else has an interest in. "Closed countries" like North Korea are the closest. All others (or in effect all)are in some degree inter-dependent. It has consequences for the chinese and europeans how other parts behave, and of course the natural "systems" do not know of national borders. Latin Americans can as anybody else try to get some influence especially upon some issues, like the situation of their own "expatriates" especially in North America but also in Europe. The same with international trade or even environmental issues: South Americans may have "legitimate interests", even how other countries manage their environment (again really borders are irrelevant from  the "earth perspective"). So again I disagree: What is relevant for others in a "global society" can not be limited that way. If anybody think so then think stopping all trade, exchange of money, participating in common fora for humanity. That is not the same as saying we should engage in any minor issue at the opposite end of the planet, only that we can, if there are major issues at stake.
You also write You envy the development of European and Asian countries. Then be aware, that some countries in the "top" are rather sparsely populated, like Sweden plus Norway ( area and population not so different from Chile, perhaps a bit fewer people), and Finland and Iceland(untill recently). All some of the most prosperous European countries, (more so in many respects than the "larger" powers of Britain, Germany, France etcetera) and less populated than most of contemporary Latin America.
Last: I do not see how You can deny a large part of the South American populations descend fully or partially from immigrants, especially from parts of Europe (Spain, Italy, some places Germans and others).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 01:08
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

The environment is one thing. the protection of biodiversity is a totally different one. Mankind benefits from reducing biodiversity; it does not benefit from harming the environment in certain ways (though that doesn't mean that changing environment is necessaily bad. It's frequently good, just as the elimination of the smallpox and polio viruses would be.)
 
Your trouble is that you paint misty religious slogans on your banners with no concern for your fellow humans, and expect everyone else to follow you, without your giving any justification.
 
We are all depending of a rich biodiversity in a lot of ways. Reducing biodiversity can create serious side effects that many times are not predictable, creating unforseen problems for us. Also biodiversity is an enourmous resource for humanity. To decrease biodiversity is to deprive ourself and future generations of a lot of options and potentially valuable resources. We are all part of a complicated ecological web, and the more we destroy the web, the more it will effect us negatively.
 
To destroy biodiversity is indeed to deprive future generations of the richness of life itself. It ought to be a criminal offense.


Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Mar 2011 at 01:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 01:01
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

5. In todays world environment and biodiversity is noones internal business. To protect the environment and the biodiversity is a matter for everyone.
 
The environment is one thing. the protection of biodiversity is a totally different one. Mankind benefits from reducing biodiversity; it does not benefit from harming the environment in certain ways (though that doesn't mean that changing environment is necessaily bad. It's frequently good, just as the elimination of the smallpox and polio viruses would be.)
 
Your trouble is that you paint misty religious slogans on your banners with no concern for your fellow humans, and expect everyone else to follow you, without your giving any justification.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 00:36
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


There are many in Patagonia, trying to stop the development of dams to generate electricity.
--
I was thinking in the "look who is talking" idea. So, Europeans destroy theirs environment but they don't want we destroy ours? Confused
---
Baloney. We are natives.
---
I envy theirs development. Also, it seems they have some rights that are denied to us. Freedom to use our countries, for instance.
---
What matter is that our environment is our internal business. Nothing else.
 
1. Well, at least in Brazil the majority of those who protest against the dams there are people from Brazil, both amerindians and others.
 
2. Well, just because Europeans have destroyed a lot of theirs and others environment does not mean that others have to do the same. Today we are more aware of the importance of not destroying our world and its biodiversity.
 
3. The real natives are ofcourse the amerindian peoples. Most others descend from invaders.
 
4. Europe and Asia have made (and still make) big errors when it comes to environmental issues. It would be crayziness of others to make similar mistakes and thus deplete our earth of even more resources and living beings.
 
5. In todays world environment and biodiversity is noones internal business. To protect the environment and the biodiversity is a matter for everyone.


Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Mar 2011 at 00:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 00:25
Ego emi, PH.D. I like the sound of that Penguin. Not too heavy with the incense please.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2011 at 00:11
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Instead, it is but another platform for the pursuit of riposte to eco-freak agiprop by the remodeling of nationalist propaganda writ large on a regional base. in this instance South America. ...


Nope, Dr. Ego. You are wrong. It is just to establish the principle of "look who is talking".
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