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The fountain that turned people into "gays"

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    Posted: 22 May 2011 at 08:36
I understand Flipper, and I meant no hard will! Phrasing is sometimes everyting?

Regards for a very interesting thread!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2011 at 18:36
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Please note, that it was not me that used the word "Gays"! If that was not a part of this thread, then I might well have not said a word!


Well, I have to say I created a very newspaper like title didn't I? However, by no means any of those terms used here were used in a negative sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2011 at 12:14
Please note, that it was not me that used the word "Gays"! If that was not a part of this thread, then I might well have not said a word!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2011 at 00:21
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:


See what one drop of water can do. It gets you on TV. I support you Flipper. We can all become famous. Star


Smile

Soon I will submit the request! Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 07:57
It was my idea first! I should receive all of the credit as well as the money!



Signed, Foghorn P. (Pullet) Leghorn!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2011 at 03:01
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Myth Busters! Big smile  Now that was fun.

All I could glean from Wiki is:

Today, the massive castle of the Knights of Malta still stands in Bodrum, and the polished stone and marble blocks of the Mausoleum can be spotted built into the walls of the structure. At the site of the Mausoleum itself, only the foundation remains, together with a small museum.

another page mentions:

Salmacis fountain is located near the ancient Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, and it is now a tourist attraction located in present-day Bodrum, Turkey. The waters of Salmacis fountain were said to have relaxing properties. Although excellent to drink, in classical times, it was thought to have the effect of making men effeminate and soft.[2] Ovid creates or recounts the myth of how the fountain came to be so in the story of Hermaphroditus and Salmacis.

Doesn't say what fountain that is. Salmacis maybe?


Basically, I am thinking semi-seriously to send Myth Busters such a challenge LOL. It won't be a Hollywood myth and it won't have explosives, but who knows... Maybe someone else within the discovery channel decides to have a look at it.


See what one drop of water can do. It gets you on TV. I support you Flipper. We can all become famous. Star
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2011 at 02:57
It was written in jest! If indeed the original title had not included the word "gays", then I would have had no problem with it at all.

Otherwise, you mostly look stupid! "Gay" V. feminine or weak?

Edited by opuslola - 21 May 2011 at 12:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2011 at 01:58
I don't even begin to understand that post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2011 at 12:22
Directed towards gcle-2003.

And, I as well, have no reason to undertand why you responded at all?

Just what problem do you have with the "title" of the original post? Are you both blind and deaf?

Sorry man, but you just struck out! You must follow the bouncing ball, or loose your turn.

Is it not obvious that that was what I referred to?

Please both of you "stay calm!"

LOL



Edited by opuslola - 11 May 2011 at 12:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2011 at 08:45
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Myth Busters! Big smile  Now that was fun.

All I could glean from Wiki is:

Today, the massive castle of the Knights of Malta still stands in Bodrum, and the polished stone and marble blocks of the Mausoleum can be spotted built into the walls of the structure. At the site of the Mausoleum itself, only the foundation remains, together with a small museum.

another page mentions:

Salmacis fountain is located near the ancient Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, and it is now a tourist attraction located in present-day Bodrum, Turkey. The waters of Salmacis fountain were said to have relaxing properties. Although excellent to drink, in classical times, it was thought to have the effect of making men effeminate and soft.[2] Ovid creates or recounts the myth of how the fountain came to be so in the story of Hermaphroditus and Salmacis.

Doesn't say what fountain that is. Salmacis maybe?


Basically, I am thinking semi-seriously to send Myth Busters such a challenge LOL. It won't be a Hollywood myth and it won't have explosives, but who knows... Maybe someone else within the discovery channel decides to have a look at it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2011 at 08:42
Yes, I will follow up gcle2003's question opuslola...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2011 at 06:28

Did you read the thread, whih has 'gays' in quotation marks? The original quote was not about a fountain that was supposed to turn heterosexual men into gays, but strong ones into weak ones.

I don't know why you think anyone suggested there was a positive correlation between homosexuality and military prowess.  

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2011 at 05:28
I think that most all of the postings above have forgotten the title to this thread, which was;

"The fountain that turned people into "gays""

Gay does not necessarily mean "effeminate", nor weak, nor cowardly, since Gay persons of both sexes tend to have made extrordinary attempts to become members of the Armed Forces of the USA, and other nations.

Does this make them EFFEMINATE? I think not.

If indeed the 300 warriors of the force known to Alexander the Great, as the "Sacred Band", determined any so called effeminate attributes, other than the love of each couple with the other, and their fierceness in battle was non-parralled in the past, then my earlier post makes more sense than some of the rest that has been written here.

Alex, I believe had erected a monument to these brave "Gay" men.

I tend to believe that this group, was more a religious fraternity of Monks, who were more of the more modern Templar or Hospitaler's stance than any thing else.

Biblically; "Love thy brother/neighbor like yourself!"

You must know that the Templars were represented in paintings, etc., riding two to a horse.

I might well even assume that the horses were mares, rather than geldings or stallions?   You may make of the last sentence what you will.

Ron


Edited by opuslola - 11 May 2011 at 05:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2011 at 01:21
Myth Busters! Big smile  Now that was fun.

All I could glean from Wiki is:

Today, the massive castle of the Knights of Malta still stands in Bodrum, and the polished stone and marble blocks of the Mausoleum can be spotted built into the walls of the structure. At the site of the Mausoleum itself, only the foundation remains, together with a small museum.

another page mentions:

Salmacis fountain is located near the ancient Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, and it is now a tourist attraction located in present-day Bodrum, Turkey. The waters of Salmacis fountain were said to have relaxing properties. Although excellent to drink, in classical times, it was thought to have the effect of making men effeminate and soft.[2] Ovid creates or recounts the myth of how the fountain came to be so in the story of Hermaphroditus and Salmacis.

Doesn't say what fountain that is. Salmacis maybe?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2011 at 00:37
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Flipper didn't mean to make haste of your latest post by not following up on your thoughts. Ovid hints of properties that empowered women. Perhaps an assertiveness that may have been out of place for the times, I'm guessing. When in presence of such ladies men would take a back seat to her masculine demeanor.  Therefore in congruence with the myth I agree that the term 'malakizousa' should not mean 'gay' in the physical sense. Something else may have inhibited a male's typical tendencies and the phrase, "must be something in the water" would not be out of place in this context. Someone could have spiked the fountain with a sedative (i.e. valerian root) and thus, emasculating the men who drank from it. Just a thought...one of many potentially bizarre ones at that. Smile

Yet Ovid, unlike Strabo, mentions a physical transformation in addition to the psychological one. If we were to give credence to any of this what do you think of my outlandish hypothesis regarding hermaphroditic properties of estrogen tainted waters? Perhaps a few menstrual cycles up river (or peeing at mid cycle) had something to do with the mysterious Fountain of Salmacis. Oh boy, now I'm getting strange..


Seko, I think you hit right on spot on this one. You even found the estrogen effect that had similar results in the hormones of fishes! I am impressed by your research.

Obviously, something was inside that water which whatever effects on those who consumed it. This could be because of:

a) Natural reasons: The underground streams carried chemicals from the earth.
b) Human interaction: 1) Some community was releasing its excements through a drainage that affected the spring sources (there you have the estrogen Smile) or 2) Someone was intentionally pouring some mixture into the source.
Lets not forget that water contamination and early "chemical"-warfare was existent in antiquity.


Now, does anyone know if this spring at least still exist? I am not interested in drinking water to change my sexual preferences or so, but damn, this is a Myth Busters scenario!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2011 at 11:33
Flipper didn't mean to make haste of your latest post by not following up on your thoughts. Ovid hints of properties that empowered women. Perhaps an assertiveness that may have been out of place for the times, I'm guessing. When in presence of such ladies men would take a back seat to her masculine demeanor.  Therefore in congruence with the myth I agree that the term 'malakizousa' should not mean 'gay' in the physical sense. Something else may have inhibited a male's typical tendencies and the phrase, "must be something in the water" would not be out of place in this context. Someone could have spiked the fountain with a sedative (i.e. valerian root) and thus, emasculating the men who drank from it. Just a thought...one of many potentially bizarre ones at that. Smile

Yet Ovid, unlike Strabo, mentions a physical transformation in addition to the psychological one. If we were to give credence to any of this what do you think of my outlandish hypothesis regarding hermaphroditic properties of estrogen tainted waters? Perhaps a few menstrual cycles up river (or peeing at mid cycle) had something to do with the mysterious Fountain of Salmacis. Oh boy, now I'm getting strange..


Edited by Seko - 10 May 2011 at 12:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2011 at 06:11
Dear C XI, you wrote above;

"The Amazons, while female, were not noted for their feminine behaviour. Quite the contrary, hence their reputation for military effectiveness."

It seems that some men would go "agape" for such a woman? Perhaps Bin Laden's wife was one of them?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2011 at 03:41
Interesting point Flipper. Maybe there was a substance in the water that had significant effects on the consumer. Scientific findings may take over the premise from mythology and either turn it on its head or bring some truth to the claim. The truth would be scientifically valid considering the body of macro studies and if someone were actually to inspect the water at Halicarnassus. Though would the water have undergone an alteration since ancient times? That is just one variable to take into consideration for any study. But the effect of water has some plausible precedents.

Thus I present to our readers the offspring of Hermaphroditus. Note - the following is associated with modern waste products. Yet lends the possibility to ancient pollutants that may have created similar scenarios.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2300573/estrogen_levels_in_water_alarm_scientists.html?cat=58

Naturally occurring estrogen compounds come from livestock urine and feces, and from human excretions which also contain contraceptives and hormone replacement medications. Other estrogen-like compounds are found in products such insecticides and plastic bottles, and they all find their way into the water supply including the drinking water supply.

The most damning evidence of the impact of estrogens in water was found in male fish swimming downstream from estrogen-containing water sources. In 2004, in Colorado, male fish were found to have both male and female sexual characteristics, such as partially developed ova, or eggs, in their testes. Fish damaged in this way have been found in the United States, Great Britain, Italy and other countries. This sex-related damage to fish may not be significant but researchers suggest that it's a warning of potential dangers to humans. Estrogens in drinking water may affect male fertility by interfering with sperm production. Links between environmental estrogenic compounds and several kinds of cancer, especially breast and testicular cancer, also have been suggested.

A 2007 study from the University of Pittsburgh Cancer Institute's Center for Environmental Oncology found that fish caught in Pittsburgh's rivers contain substances that mimic the actions the female hormone. Fish concentrate chemicals from the surrounding water in their bodies. The study results suggest that "feminizing chemicals" may be making their way into the Pennsylvania waterways.



Edited by Seko - 10 May 2011 at 03:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2011 at 03:21
Well, after checking again I think we can never be certainly sure about what Strabo and Ovid implied. Strabo (14.2.16) uses the verb "malakizousa" (Latin equivalent malacisso) that could mean something of the following:

1) to make someone soft
2) to make someone less macho, weakened, coward
3) to make someone passive and weak at the same time

I think the second case is what gets translated in English as "effeminate" and one can discuss whether it is an optimal translation or not. In that case, Strabo at least didn't mean that it turned men to gay, but it made them less masculine or simply weak.

The "gay" scenario must be abandoned for sure. If Strabo meant that then he could easily make use of a bunch of other words like "androgynus", "kinaidos", "andropornos", "batalos", "katapygos" etc.

From this point one can make various scenarios on scientific explanations about the water of the fountain. Maybe, it contained something that made people high or gave some chemical effect that made them dizzy, ill, sloth etc.

Kudos to Seko and gcle2003 for pointing out several of these things.




Edited by Flipper - 10 May 2011 at 03:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2011 at 00:46
First of all folks try not to take any text on this legend as the gospel truth. Literal interpretations are frivolous and fraught with imaginary dispensation of a perpetual lie. Unless one believes in nymphs, gods and their offspring, tainted water that turns men into fags then it's best to enjoy these classical legends for what they are and not look into reading more than is there. Anyway as Flipper mentions...the legend is not so much about being effeminate as it is about being anti-macho.

Wiki - In Ovid's Metamorphoses, she becomes one with Hermaphroditus, and Hermaphroditus curses the fountain to have the same effect on others. However, it's very likely that Ovid fabricated the entire tale himself - his use of "praetereo, dulcique animos novitate tenebo" could be read in several ways, as "novitate" could be translated as either something strange or something new, which would imply that it was a new tale. Salmacis could also have been intended simply as a contrast to the previous tales in Ovid's Metamorphoses, as others involve a dominant male pursuing an elusive female.

Salute! Drink up!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 22:14
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I suspect Constantine is correct, though I don't have Flipper's knowledge of the original text and the meaning of the word translated as effeminate.



Basically, when I read this it was not in a Greek text. I'm not in position to check all sources for the moment but from a quick look at Strabo's reference in Greek, he doesn't say effeminate but "turn into w**kers those who drink from it". Maybe the final translation in English that gives us "Effeminate" has to do with the rest of the accounts.

I will have a look tonight and get back to you guys. Maybe, it is a complete mistranslation into English and then the context of this discussion will turn into "What did this water have that made man to want to wank". LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 21:57

I suspect Constantine is correct, though I don't have Flipper's knowledge of the original text and the meaning of the word translated as effeminate.

While homosexuality was mostly ignored or even praised in the Graeco-Latin world there was a sharp distinction, wasn't there?, between the status of the active and the passive partner. Bathing in the pool might be considered to convert to passivity (a charge levelled against Caesar himself, IIRC).

Moreover to be masculine was a virtue (even when shared by women as with the Amazons) and to be feminine a weakness, irrespective of whether the person was biologically male or female, or what their sexual proclivities might be.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 12:05
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

But, of course C. XI, the legends of the fighting valour of the Women warriors, even at Troy, were legend!

I believe they are mostly known to us today as "AMAZONS!"

I have it seems, met a few of their line.

Ron


The Amazons, while female, were not noted for their feminine behaviour. Quite the contrary, hence their reputation for military effectiveness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 12:01
Germanic woman, for example, fought like a man! Nice valkiries!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 11:59
But, of course C. XI, the legends of the fighting valour of the Women warriors, even at Troy, were legend!

I believe they are mostly known to us today as "AMAZONS!"

I have it seems, met a few of their line.

Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 11:47
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Maybe the "Sacred Band of Thebes" had some use of this spring?

Ron


Who knows, Ron.

I doubt it, though. The spring seems to make males effeminate, rather than strictly homosexual. These two terms are not synonyms. I doubt that Sacred Band of Thebes would have fought with as much courage and skills as they did had they really been effeminate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 11:44
Come on, it is not precisely water what converts guys in gays. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 11:37
Maybe the "Sacred Band of Thebes" had some use of this spring?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 10:42
I'm guessing this spring dispensed ice cold cosmopolitans LOL

In all seriousness, it was not unusual in the classical world for some cult priests and priestesses to also perform as prostitutes. Could this spring have had some religious significance for the local erotic cult?

It may be speculation, but it does not seem far fetched that mass hysteria could have resulted from a group of people all partaking in a ritual and engaging in otherwise unusual behaviour. This is still a pretty common feature of religious devotion in many faiths today (e.g. pentecostals babbling in tongues together).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 08:22
The child hermaphroditus was the son of hermes and aphrodite. The result of this secret love affair was entrusted to the nymphs of mount Ida. After his encounter with the water nymph, Salmacis, the wild creature of the woods (hermaphroditus) laid a curse upon the water. According to legend all who drink from it become hermaphrodites.
 
Today tourists lose their inhibitions as they frolick in the sun and sand (and of course the waters) of Bodrum. Wink
 
Here are the lyrics as sung from Gabriel.
 
---------------------------------------------------

From a dense forest of tall dark pinewood,
Mount Ida rises like an island.
Within a hidden cave, nymphs had kept a child;
Hermaphroditus, son of gods, so afraid of their love.

As the dawn creeps up the sky
The hunter caught sight of a doe.
In desire for conquest,
He found himself within a glade he'd not beheld before.

Hermaphroditus: Narrator:
"Where are you, my father? "Then he could go no farther
Give wisdom to your son" Now lost, the boy was guided by the sun"

And as his strength began to fail
He saw a shimmering lake.
A shadow in the dark green depths
Disturbed the strange tranquility.

Salmacis: Narrator:
"The waters are disturbed "The waters are disturbed
Some creature has been stirred" Naiad queen Salmacis has been stirred"

As he rushed to quench his thirst,
A fountain spring appeared before him
And as his heated breath brushed through the cool mist,
A liquid voice called, "Son of gods, drink from my spring".

The water tasted strangely sweet.
Behind him the voice called again.
He turned and saw her, in a cloak of mist alone
And as he gazed, her eyes were filled with the darkness of the lake.

Salmacis: Narrator:
"We shall be one "She wanted them as one
We shall be joined as one" Yet he had no desire to be one"

Hermaphroditus: "Away from me cold-blooded woman
Your thirst is not mine"
Salmacis: "Nothing will cause us to part
Hear me, O Gods"

Unearthly calm descended from the sky
And then their flesh and bones were strangely merged
Forever to be joined as one.

The creature crawled into the lake.
A fading voice was heard:
"And I beg, yes I beg that all who touch this spring
May share my fate"

Salmacis: Narrator:
"We are the one "The two are now made one,
We are the one" Demi-god and nymph are now made one"

Both had given everything they had.
A lover's dream had been fulfilled at last,
Forever still beneath the lake.

 
 
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