| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Sinitic Civilization began in 3000 BC in Liangzhu
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Sinitic Civilization began in 3000 BC in Liangzhu

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
sardor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2015
Location: Xinjiang
Status: Offline
Points: 1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sardor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sinitic Civilization began in 3000 BC in Liangzhu
    Posted: 12 Oct 2015 at 19:14
Chinese historians and some concepts. The definition of the world civilization finds them denied.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2014 at 15:25
The Longshan came from Liangzhu.

Quote
−The Longshan horizon (Lung-shan), started around 3500 BC with Liangzhu culture, became widespread by 2500 BC; lasted until about 1500 BC
−also written Longshan or Longshan
−a “horizon” that spread across northern China
−a “horizon” is the extension of a style (usually of pottery) over a very wide area
−horizons make convenient time markers
−because sites that contain objects in the horizon s tyle must be roughly contemporarywith each other
−horizon styles allow us to correlate what was happening in many different places at thatsame time
−but since a horizon style may take a while to spread, appearance of the style in different places may not actually happen at the same moment
−a horizon typically starts somewhere, and gets to its periphery later
−horizons are also interesting because they imply widely shared ideas, probably beyond the pottery style that marks them




http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 5382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2014 at 15:11
Quote 16. By 1500 BCE
Out of the Longshan culture arose China’s first civilisation – Shang Civilisation
Yellow River Plains – cradle of Chinese civilisation
Remains of the Shang Civilisation have been found between the present-day cities of Anyang and Luoyang
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 23:26
Originally posted by Yingui Lexicon Yingui Lexicon wrote:

Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

The rice was not sacred, the millet was.  That was the point Sagart focused for Tibeto-Burmans/Austronesians.  There was a hierarchical priority to the matriarchs establishing Austronesian expansion.  Notice Sagart's paper was NOT "The expansion of Rice farmers in East Asia"

Why did you bring up sources written by armchair historians only to smear them?  Remember Goodenough?  You said he thought the Yangzi valley was sinicized when he never said such a thing.  He actually posited there may be remnant tribes of the Austronesian expansion which remained along the coast but for which most ended up in Taiwan.  Likewise the anonymous source you give here isn't saying Yangshao invented the Longshan horizon and Sinitic writing.  Its symbols were simple geometric imprints or abstractions of plants and animals, making them worshipped totems (eg. eyes of a taotie or s-shape of dragon).  A symbol must have literary value assigned, not merely pictorial, to be considered "word".  While descendants of Yangshao people can be observed for how they drew a certain fish or animal which can then be used as part of a library of written symbols, they didn't invent writing of words.  Sinitic writing or words meant putting symbols together by people in civilization knowing how to construct sentence structure.

The symbols shown relating to Dawenkou were found in multiple regional areas showing that it was a neolithic logo having to do with the east.  Therefore its structure as different words is not tenable ie a short sentence which reads "Sun fire mountain".

Didn't genetic tests show that the Liangzhu people were closer to modern Austronesians? I'm not sure, that's what I read. 


No I think you got confused by the haplogroups analysis as did toyomotor. The original places had O O1 O2 and O3 and bottlenecking served to make different areas have different concentrations.  The actual phenotypes bottlenecked by Liangzhu people were very close to what many Sinitics in the area look like.


http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 5382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 13:09
YL wrote:
Quote Didn't genetic tests show that the Liangzhu people were closer to modern Austronesians? I'm not sure, that's what I read.
 
I also thought that was the case.
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
Back to Top
Yingui Lexicon View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 23 Aug 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yingui Lexicon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 09:47
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

The rice was not sacred, the millet was.  That was the point Sagart focused for Tibeto-Burmans/Austronesians.  There was a hierarchical priority to the matriarchs establishing Austronesian expansion.  Notice Sagart's paper was NOT "The expansion of Rice farmers in East Asia"

Why did you bring up sources written by armchair historians only to smear them?  Remember Goodenough?  You said he thought the Yangzi valley was sinicized when he never said such a thing.  He actually posited there may be remnant tribes of the Austronesian expansion which remained along the coast but for which most ended up in Taiwan.  Likewise the anonymous source you give here isn't saying Yangshao invented the Longshan horizon and Sinitic writing.  Its symbols were simple geometric imprints or abstractions of plants and animals, making them worshipped totems (eg. eyes of a taotie or s-shape of dragon).  A symbol must have literary value assigned, not merely pictorial, to be considered "word".  While descendants of Yangshao people can be observed for how they drew a certain fish or animal which can then be used as part of a library of written symbols, they didn't invent writing of words.  Sinitic writing or words meant putting symbols together by people in civilization knowing how to construct sentence structure.

The symbols shown relating to Dawenkou were found in multiple regional areas showing that it was a neolithic logo having to do with the east.  Therefore its structure as different words is not tenable ie a short sentence which reads "Sun fire mountain".

Didn't genetic tests show that the Liangzhu people were closer to modern Austronesians? I'm not sure, that's what I read. 
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 19:31
The rice was not sacred, the millet was.  That was the point Sagart focused for Tibeto-Burmans/Austronesians.  There was a hierarchical priority to the matriarchs establishing Austronesian expansion.  Notice Sagart's paper was NOT "The expansion of Rice farmers in East Asia"

Why did you bring up sources written by armchair historians only to smear them?  Remember Goodenough?  You said he thought the Yangzi valley was sinicized when he never said such a thing.  He actually posited there may be remnant tribes of the Austronesian expansion which remained along the coast but for which most ended up in Taiwan.  Likewise the anonymous source you give here isn't saying Yangshao invented the Longshan horizon and Sinitic writing.  Its symbols were simple geometric imprints or abstractions of plants and animals, making them worshipped totems (eg. eyes of a taotie or s-shape of dragon).  A symbol must have literary value assigned, not merely pictorial, to be considered "word".  While descendants of Yangshao people can be observed for how they drew a certain fish or animal which can then be used as part of a library of written symbols, they didn't invent writing of words.  Sinitic writing or words meant putting symbols together by people in civilization knowing how to construct sentence structure.

The symbols shown relating to Dawenkou were found in multiple regional areas showing that it was a neolithic logo having to do with the east.  Therefore its structure as different words is not tenable ie a short sentence which reads "Sun fire mountain".


Edited by literaryClarity - 23 Jun 2014 at 19:50
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
easy772 View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 06 Jun 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote easy772 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2014 at 05:24

Past Human Migrations in East AsiaMatching Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics

Writing and Literacy in Chinese, Korean and Japanese


Dawenkou and Yangshao seem to be the precursors to Old Chinese, not surprising. Here's yet another source supporting that:

RE: Peiligang cultures only farming millet. 

That's not true. They also farmed rice. 


Edited by easy772 - 22 Jun 2014 at 05:26
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 5382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 20:19
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

That's because that person is me...obviously...would you have me reword my own posts differently?

I've since posted the same threads modeling off of Panther's modifications and condensing the information within 2 threads, ie "Zhou adopted the East Asian lingua franca of Shang" and "Hemudu/Liangzhu link to Austronesian tenable?".

The purpose of which is to question the tenability of Tibeto-Burmans and Austronesians to Hemudu/Liangzhu after it had already been explained why "Sinitic civilization began in Liangzhu in 3000 BC".

Maybe I'll create one just for Cumans and one for Ancient Black Chinese.
 
Proceeding with your current attitude will only result in us ignoring you. Is that what you want?
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 23:13
That's because that person is me...obviously...would you have me reword my own posts differently?

I've since posted the same threads modeling off of Panther's modifications and condensing the information within 2 threads, ie "Zhou adopted the East Asian lingua franca of Shang" and "Hemudu/Liangzhu link to Austronesian tenable?".

The purpose of which is to question the tenability of Tibeto-Burmans and Austronesians to Hemudu/Liangzhu after it had already been explained why "Sinitic civilization began in Liangzhu in 3000 BC".

Maybe I'll create one just for Cumans and one for Ancient Black Chinese.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 5382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 18:14
 Interesting fact:
 
A person using the name the Sinitic, has posted exactly the same info as LC on another forum.
 
 
Oh well!
 
 
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 17:29
Northman

I have received the advice from moderator Panther already.  You said so yourself.  When have I since opened a single thread? I had patiently awaited the issue to resolve itself.  My reports are a separate issue altogether.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 17:19
literaryClarity
You don't know me - so how can you even begin to have thoughts about my resolving reports?
You also have some "impressions" and you "suppose" on behalf of a majority of people.
Then you have something "coincidental" - and no...  I don't go to the other forum....

There is nothing factual in your post - all vague assumptions.
The best you have is still my advice - yet you don't seem to take it.  
That could prove to be a bad decision.

This is an answer to your post - you don't have to answer, its not a debate.

~ Northman

Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 16:32
Northman

I thought resolving someone's report on a suspicious post wouldn't be conditional on whether the person wanted to open multiple threads or wanted to open single threads.  They are separate issues in my book.  I was under the impression a reported post would be dealt with swiftly on account of the report in conjunction with a moderator's sound judgement.  There is no need to "advice" me on anything beyond the issue of my multiple threading, if that doesn't suit the forum.

I suppose the great majority of people would still understand the need for separate threading which is why my threads still remain although somewhat rearranged in posting order by moderator Panther.

The only reason I brought Arlington up was because he participated in this thread along with toyomotor which might seem coincidental to some unless you saw what I saw on the other forum.  I would have reported anyone thought of having dual accounts, not just for the people whom debated with me.  I'm not petty and scandalous like that.


Edited by literaryClarity - 18 Jun 2014 at 16:48
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 5382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 15:58
Northman & Panther:
Thank you, I will not respond to any further posting by Literary Clarity on these topics.
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 15:54
literaryClarity
I strongly would advice you to rethink what you are doing on this forum. You already had one friendly advice from Panther... - so this is an official warning.

You open thread after thread on the same topic - spamming and trolling just to keep your attack up on toyomotor and easy772. 
That is a violation of our Code of Conduct, and next time it happens, there will be consequences.

Furthermore:
Now when this didn't work for you, you bring up some old knowledge about dual identity - something totally unfounded from another forum, that has nothing to do with this forum. 
It has been brought up before and there is no shred of evidence to support such a claim.

You are not doing yourself any favors with this kind of behavior.

~ Northman

Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 15:16
Just launched a formal complaint.  If I was wrong please take no notice of this.

Quote
I would like to bring this dual account to the attention of the administrators/mods

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34369

toyomotor/Arlington was banned from AllEmpires.com months ago and he's possibly here now doing the same thing with his proxies.

His reason for being banned:

Quote
Dual idents and trolling.  He's apparently a notorious troll.  He's using false proxies.


I did notice toyomotor's and Arlington's join dates were very close together, in fact they joined this forum within a day or two from receiving permanent ban from AllEmpires.com


Edited by literaryClarity - 18 Jun 2014 at 15:17
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2014 at 10:44
http://www2.econ.iastate.edu/classes/econ355/choi/silkroad.htm

Quote
The Ricardian trade model does not explain the caravan trade along the Silkroad between the two empires, Rome and China (because China have exported not only silk but also many other products, including porcelain wares, to Europe). The Specific Factors Model explains the trade along the Silkroad. Emperor Wu Di (145-87 BC) of Han dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD) built the silkroad, connecting Chang An (Xian today, where Qin Shi Huang-Di's tomb was recently found, making it the most important archeological discovery in the 20th Century) and Europe, though central Asia. However, the Chinese were trading with Europe long before the Silkroad was officially built and expanded by emperor Wu Di. Imported colored glasses were found in China during the Warring States period. Silk was produced by the Liangzhu people who lived around the Yangtze River basin (around Shanghai today).


http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2004/12/2/neolithic-jades-of-the-liangzhu-culture-in-the-zhejiang-provincial-museum-of-hangzhou.html

Beautiful jade pieces and other artifacts showcases Liangzhu in the Zhejiang provincial museums.  Notice that none of these things were originated from the Yellow River nor were they Tibeto-Burman/Austronesian inheritances.


Edited by literaryClarity - 15 Jun 2014 at 11:00
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 05:21
easy772 you reveal your distortion by going off topic.  That is the point.  Nobody cares about the eastern Himalayas peopling of China and where O3 has retained all the diversity near Qiang territory.  Coinciding with that it turns out the eastern Himalyas is also where the least diversity has also occurred depending on which population you are talking about.  By using your same source we can understand that people within the region had no opportunities to expand.  They aged and retained internal diversity.  In any case your article talks about who were the oldest population within the family, not that they invented anything within Sinitic civilization.

easy772, the topic simply doesn't care if Chinese have different arrangments of C, D, J, N, O, Q, R etc.  Neither does it care about nonexistant writings of Tarim during the middle neolithic and Scythian expansion at the turn of the 7th century BC.  It cares about the Sinitic civilization of China, not Sino-Tibetan Austronesian.  If you want to talk about the mtDNA admixtures for the matrilocal Tibeto-Burman/Austronesian expansion, teeth pulling, millet farming, facial tattooing, be my guest but please go to another thread.


Edited by literaryClarity - 09 Jun 2014 at 07:02
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
easy772 View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 06 Jun 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote easy772 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 03:48
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Easy 772:
In any case, you've gone off topic with the DNA aspect, it simply isn't relevant to the date and place of Sinitic Civilisation.
 
Don't be sucked in by Literary Clarity.
 
I've questioned his reasoning on the date and place, but he can't provide the answers.
 
I maintain my belief that Chinese civilisation was accomplished in the Yellow River region and spread south to the people described by the Chinese as barbarians, who may have been, at least in part, Austronesian peoples.
 
 

Sorry about going off-topic. I just wanted to showcase how he distorts sources for everyone to see. 

RE: Tarim mummies

West Eurasians were much more common place in Northwest China and the Altai before the Iron Age. I have a research paper bookmarked that may give some insight on the demographic shift if you are interested. The change seems to have occurred ~700 BC

"A recent discovery of Iron Age burials (Pazyryk culture) in the Altai Mountains of Mongolia may shed light on the mode and tempo of the generation of the current genetic east-west population admixture in Central Asia. Studies on ancient mitochondrial DNA of this region suggest that the Altai Mountains played the role of a geographical barrier between West and East Eurasian lineages until the beginning of the Iron Age. After the 7th century BC, coinciding with Scythian expansion across the Eurasian steppes, a gradual influx of East Eurasian sequences in Western steppes is detected."
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0048904

RE: Origin of Sinitic expansion

"The eastern Himalayas are located near the southern entrance through which early modern humans expanded into East Asia. The genetic structure in this region is therefore of great importance in the study of East Asian origins. However, few genetic studies have been performed on the Sino-Tibetan populations (Luoba and Deng) in this region. Here, we analyzed the Y-chromosome diversity of the two populations. The Luoba possessed haplogroups D, N, O, J, Q, and R, indicating gene flow from Tibetans, as well as the western and northern Eurasians. The Deng exhibited haplogroups O, D, N, and C, similar to most Sino-Tibetan populations in the east. Short tandem repeat (STR) diversity within the dominant haplogroup O3 in Sino-Tibetan populations showed that the Luoba are genetically close to Tibetans and the Deng are close to the Qiang. The Qiang had the greatest diversity of Sino-Tibetan populations, supporting the view of this population being the oldest in the family. The lowest diversity occurred in the eastern Himalayas, suggesting that this area was an endpoint for the expansion of Sino-Tibetan people. Thus, we have shown that populations with haplogroup O3 moved into the eastern Himalayas through at least two routes."

Higher diversity indicates that a lineage has been around in that area for a while. Lower diversity indicates the area has been recently settled


Edited by easy772 - 09 Jun 2014 at 04:15
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 19:15
OP said 3000 BC, so yeah.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 5382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 18:51
Easy 772:
The following from
http://nell-rose.hubpages.com/hub/The-White-Tribes-of-Ancient-China is provided for your comments.
 
It's just another account of the Tarim Basin mummies, but, the points for consideration are:-
  1. The skeletons are about 4000 years old, before the time which the OP claims China was civilised;
  2. The skeletal remains are of Caucasian origins;
  3. Who were these people? and
  4. What, if any influence did they have on the civilisation of China?

 

Quote

4,000 YEAR OLD LOST TRIBE

One of the most fantastic finds in the last half of the twentieth century, has to be the discovery of a Northern European tribe found in the north east corner of Xinjiang province, near the Celestial mountains and the Taklimakan Desert. This is situated on the edge of the Gobi desert.

The story starts in 1978 when the Chinese archaeologist, Wang Binghus, began searching for ancient sites. He began by following stream beds, and asking the locals if they had ever come across any broken pots and artifacts. He eventually came across a few people who pointed out that there was a place called Qizilchoqa, or, as the local people called it, Red hill. Here he made the most amazing discovery, the first of the mummies. It had been placed in a grave on the side of the hill.

It was a simple site, rush mats were on the floor, and some of the bodies were buried in the foetal position. In effect, the mummies were not what you would call real mummies, in the sense that they were not embalmed. They had been preserved in an amazing way. They had been placed in the ground, which had been subjected to a very unique weather system. Heat, aridity, and bitter winter cold, mixed with a salty soil, had preserved them better than other mummies found around the world. Even the clothing was still perfectly recognisable.

The bodies were excavated and taken to the museum in the city of Urumqi. There were 113 bodies taken from the site. At the time the Chinese government did not have enough funds to excavate the find. Wang eventually discovered three more burial sites.

The faces of the mummies were very well preserved, so, on closer examination, they could see that the were not chinese. They had blonde hair , big eyes, and European noses.

At that time, Chinese tradition had always shown the fact that they believed china had developed independently from the rest of the world. Because of this, the government was reluctant to bring the finds to the public attention.

The most extraordinary thing about the mummies, was the fact that their clothes were in such good condition. A jacket belonging to one man, over three thousand years old, still had a crimson edge. And the women had artificial extensions in their hair.

This tribe was obviously very advanced for it's day. On one of the mummies, there is a scar which shows they had rudimentary skills at operating. It had been sown up with horses hair.

When the West was eventually allowed to visit the mummies , Dr Victor Mair, who was Professor of Chinese at Pennsylvania university, took a tour around the museum. Imagine his surprise when he saw these amazing mummies, which had been kept in a dark room, in glass topped boxes.

At this time, the Chinese authorities were still a bit reluctant to let anybody know about them, so it has taken quite a long time for the the west to be able to study them properly.

eventually in 1993, they were allowed back with a team of geneticists from Italy. And this is when they began to study them properly. They used the most up to date technology of the time to confirm the date of the mummies. They now believe that they are about 4,000 years old, and the youngest about 2,000. There are probably many more to be found, possibly in the same region of china, but it is also possible they could have settled anywhere across China, as long as the conditions were suitable to live in.

These people were from the Bronze age, they were Caucasian, and it is possible that they interacted with the indigenous people at that time. The local people probably taught them their traditions, and the Caucasians most likely introduced them to their way of life as well.

There were two cartwheels found at the burial sites, very similar to what you might find in Russia, or nearby countries. These amazing people were probably Scandinavian or German, it is amazing to think that they trekked across China all the way from Europe, 4,000 years ago, taking their traditions and language with them. How many other tribes were there? who knows.

I think that one of the most fascinating things about this story is that the local people, even today, that live in the area where the bodies were found, speak a language called Tocharian, the most eastern branch of Indo-European. This language is closely related to German and Celtic. I think the other most amazing thing about these people is that they walked all the way across China, taking with them their families, and a mixture of animals, probably goats and sheep. Feeling the cold, and the heat, catching diseases that they didn't know anything about, Not sure whether they would survive the different climate. Babies were born, people died, and all the time not knowing whether they would be safe or if the indigenous people would accept them. Their lust for adventure and discovering new places gave them strength and determination to survive. They were amazing people, and I hope that soon we will be able to see these wonderful discoveries, and learn more about these courageous human beings that came from the beginning of history.

and

The Tocharians or Tokharians (/təˈkɛəriənz/ or /təˈkɑriənz/) were inhabitants of medieval oasis city-states on the northern edge of the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang, China). Their Tocharian languages (a branch of the Indo-European family) are known from manuscripts from the 6th to 8th centuries AD, after which they were supplanted by the Turkic languages of the Uyghur tribes.

Tocharians 2

Some scholars have linked the Tocharians with the Afanasevo culture of eastern Siberia (c. 3500 2500 BC), the Tarim mummies (c. 1800 BC) and the Yuezhi of Chinese records, most of whom migrated from western Gansu to Bactria in the 2nd century BC and then later to northwest India where they founded the Kushan Empire.

and

The Afanasevo culture is the earliest Eneolithic archaeological culture found until now in south Siberia, occupying the Minusinsk Basin, Altay and Eastern Kazakhstan.

Conventional archaeological understanding tended to date at around 20002500 BC. However radiocarbon gave dates as early as 3705 BC on wooden tools and 2874 BC on human remains. The earliest of these dates have now been rejected, giving a date of around 3300 BC for the start of the culture.

The culture is mainly known from its inhumations, with the deceased buried in conic or rectangular enclosures, often in a supine position, reminiscent of burials of the Yamna culture, believed to be Indo-European. Settlements have also been discovered. The Afanasevo people became the first food-producers in the area by breeding cattle, horses, and sheep. Metal objects and the presence of wheeled vehicles are documented. These resemblances to the Yamna culture make the Afanasevo culture is a strong candidate to represent the earliest cultural form of a people later called the Tocharians.

The culture became known from excavations in the Minusinsk area of the Krasnoyarsk Krai, southern Siberia, but the culture was also widespread in western Mongolia, northern Xinjiang, and eastern and central Kazakhstan, with connections or extensions in Tajikistan and the Aral area.

 
and
 

J. P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair argue that the Tocharian languages were introduced to the Tarim and Turpan basins from the Afanasevo culture to their immediate north. The Afanasevo culture (c. 3500 2500 BC) displays cultural and genetic connections with the Indo-European-associated cultures of the Central Asian steppe yet predates the specifically Indo-Iranian-associated Andronovo culture (c. 2000 900 BC) enough to isolate the Tocharian languages from Indo-Iranian linguistic innovations like satemization.

 
The point I'm making here, is that there were non Chinese people in Northern China, Xinjiang, before when LC claims civilisation emerged in China.
 
If they were there ~5000years BCE these people could have had an influence of the development of civilisation.


Edited by toyomotor - 08 Jun 2014 at 20:50
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 17:27
Where's the Tibeto-Burman writing?  Where's the Mongolic writing?  What examples of Tibeto-Burman palatial architecture?  What examples of Mongolic architecture?
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 5382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 17:23
Easy 772:
In any case, you've gone off topic with the DNA aspect, it simply isn't relevant to the date and place of Sinitic Civilisation.
 
Don't be sucked in by Literary Clarity.
 
I've questioned his reasoning on the date and place, but he can't provide the answers.
 
I maintain my belief that Chinese civilisation was accomplished in the Yellow River region and spread south to the people described by the Chinese as barbarians, who may have been, at least in part, Austronesian peoples.
 
 
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 17:11
BTW I hope everyone isn't put off by the dubious source easy772 put up as the excuse for Austronesians being mostly O-M95.  The ethnolinguistic/genetic index he showed us is profoundly inaccurate.  He would have us believe Ryukyuan is Altaic, Mlabri is Sino-Tibetan, and Han is Daic.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 16:57
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

I need help toyomotor.
 
 
I know.

So what do Cuman writings look like? I need to know.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 5382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 15:43
Originally posted by Alpha NOVA Omega Alpha NOVA Omega wrote:

SINITIC POWER!
 
Apropos  of precisely what?
 
A well  presented, thought out,and informative post.Ermm
 
CHOI OI?


Edited by toyomotor - 08 Jun 2014 at 17:16
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 5382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 15:39
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

I need help toyomotor.
 
 
I know.
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
Back to Top
literaryClarity View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2014
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 15:05
I only got banned because people thought I was being offensive but then I got reprieved.  There was a thread in which people felt you were the annoying one and wanted Yellow Peril's resignation.  But you're right I wouldn't want to reinstate my membership because there's no point when distortionists like you are on there posting skull shapes for linguistic classification purposes.  How embarassing it must be to associate with those types.

Edited by literaryClarity - 08 Jun 2014 at 15:09
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
Back to Top
easy772 View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 06 Jun 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote easy772 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 14:15
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Easy 772 wrote:
Quote I'm not going to respond to him either. He's been indefinitely banned on eastbound88, but he keeps making sockpuppets to draw me here. Instead of endlessly engaging him, I'll just post the information directly to you guys. 
 
It's much easier to ignore him than keep prodding him with a hot iron, although the latter could prove entertaining.
 
Have you noticed that he never answers direct questions put to him?
 
As I said, I'm not responding to him again.

Yeah. I am also ignoring him. The IP ban is broken on eastbound88 so he's making multiple sockpuppets per day to post thread despite being permanently banned LOL

Regarding Y-DNA O2 in ISEA. It's presence there is associated with Austro-Asiatics who inhabited Malaysia and possibly Java before the Austronesian expansion. Here you can see this illustration represents overall ancestry you can see Java and Malaysia have substantial Austro-Asiatic ancestry as well as Austronesian:

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.