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    Posted: 07 May 2014 at 02:39
A self styled Nigerian War Lord has bragged that he is behind the abduction of at least 200 school girls, who he intends to sell off as child brides.
 
Now, there is an international call for the US to intervene and rescue the girls.
 
Why is it the US again which is being called on? Why hasn't the UN rushed a force into Nigeria to execute the rescue?
 
Why hasn't the Union of African Nations stepped up?
 
If the US is going to be continually called upon to intervene in international problems, it deserves to be compensated, but by whom and how I'm not quite sure.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2014 at 04:03
Africa is a continent in continual chaos. There are various reasons for this. The problems are so vast that no one entity can really do much but put on a  band-aid. No countries are eager to get involved, as they know there is little to be gained, and the comittment could be open-ended. Only France, showing a rather pathetic urge to keep alive any signs of  a larger Francophone community in the world still send troops to Africa.

Unfortunately, Africa has had a lot of trouble rising above rank tribalism. Africa has been excluded from the modern world by, first its geographic situation, second by the slave trade, third by colonialism, and fourth by the kleptomaniac regimes that tended to follow the last colonialists. Today, overpopulation, extreme layers of bureaucracy, lack of industry, theft of resources, and environmental  destruction have taken their toll, and few, aside from volunteers and NGO's want to get involved with this quagmire.

The only well off in Africa today are those with connections to the remaining resources, and folks with AK-47s around them as protection. Sad, but that is the case. We can expect to see more in the headlines re Africa.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2014 at 07:56
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Africa is a continent in continual chaos. There are various reasons for this. The problems are so vast that no one entity can really do much but put on a  band-aid. No countries are eager to get involved, as they know there is little to be gained, and the comittment could be open-ended. Only France, showing a rather pathetic urge to keep alive any signs of  a larger Francophone community in the world still send troops to Africa.

Unfortunately, Africa has had a lot of trouble rising above rank tribalism. Africa has been excluded from the modern world by, first its geographic situation, second by the slave trade, third by colonialism, and fourth by the kleptomaniac regimes that tended to follow the last colonialists. Today, overpopulation, extreme layers of bureaucracy, lack of industry, theft of resources, and environmental  destruction have taken their toll, and few, aside from volunteers and NGO's want to get involved with this quagmire.

The only well off in Africa today are those with connections to the remaining resources, and folks with AK-47s around them as protection. Sad, but that is the case. We can expect to see more in the headlines re Africa.

Captain:
 
I know and understand the problems associated with Africa, what I was really getting as why call on the USA again
 
The USA, I realise, has become, defacto, the world policemen, but it's not a USA problem. It's a world problem.
 
As I said, why hasn't the UN or the African Union stepped in?
 
The USA is trillions of dollars in debt, a great deal of which has gone to finance warfare in foreign countries.
 
I'm no particular fan of the USA, but it steps in to quell the frequent bushfires sprouting around the world, and is then criticised by much of the world, often the country or people receiving the assistance.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 07 May 2014 at 11:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2014 at 11:57
Nigeria is No. 12 of the oil producing countries. Now, where Russia seems to fade away behind a new iron curtain, it is necessary to look for the decreasing oil ressources. To help Nigeria, means to get influence. That's all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 00:56
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain:
 
I know and understand the problems associated with Africa, what I was really getting as why call on the USA again
 
The USA, I realise, has become, defacto, the world policemen, but it's not a USA problem. It's a world problem.
 
As I said, why hasn't the UN or the African Union stepped in?
 
The USA is trillions of dollars in debt, a great deal of which has gone to finance warfare in foreign countries.
 
I'm no particular fan of the USA, but it steps in to quell the frequent bushfires sprouting around the world, and is then criticised by much of the world, often the country or people receiving the assistance.
 
 
  

Actually, the US has acted as impartial policeman on only a few select occasions in history, if we exclude those actions in which it deemed its essential interests were at stake. In those cases, the costs were trivial in relation to its economy. This has been the case in Africa in particular. There is little of interest there, strategically speaking, and so it has been left to its own devices for the most part. The long running conflict and chaos in the Congo and great lakes region has been one of the largest wars of recent times, in terms of casualties. Yet it has gone unchecked, and largely unremarked. 

Nigeria is a huge country that is awash in tribal and religious strife, is seriously corrupt, and just for good measure also has an exploding population that will probably swamp any efforts at reform, if such efforts are ever made. The US can do nothing about those schoolgirls, and to take on one or more of the militia gangs there would require an effort that would dwarf Iraq or Afghanistan is scope. They're not going to do it. The UN will probably do nothing, because it requires consensus to act, and there is usually some lurker in the woodpile that will vote contrary on these sort of things, as they perceive some sort of convoluted self-interest in doing so, and that trumps any humanitarian notions. The AU doesn't have enough money to do much, and would depend on the west paying in some measure for any expedition undertaken. And again, there would be African leaders who would fear such an enterprise, as it just might give others ideas about toppling their own minor kingdoms, and perhaps even dragging them into court. Better to let sleeping dogs lie. Or as it's Africa, maybe we should say hyenas. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 03:29
Captain:
 
It appears as though the US has in fact sent in a team of "advisers".
 
I seem to remember a team of advisers being sent in to South Viet Nam too, and look how that ended up.
 
As I see it, the US could intervene on an appropriate scale, to save face is for no other reason. The US can't be seen to show weakness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 18:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain:
 
It appears as though the US has in fact sent in a team of "advisers".
 
I seem to remember a team of advisers being sent in to South Viet Nam too, and look how that ended up.
 
As I see it, the US could intervene on an appropriate scale, to save face is for no other reason. The US can't be seen to show weakness.

Intervening in hostage taking is always a roll of the dice. The chances of getting people back alive is never all that great. An action that went sideways, which it well might, wouldn't do much for their face.

I have my doubts that the sort of people who do these things have any realistic idea of strength or weakness, their relative position in the world in relation to the US, or any other entity, or anything much in general. These are dysfunctional folks, mostly with little education to speak of,  little knowledge of the world, and that invest in magic and mysticism. Any sort of demonstration of strength here may or may not leave an impression, and may or may not be observed or noted with apprehension in any of the other many quagmires of conflict and chaos in Africa, or in other spots around the globe.

To date in fact about the only thing the US has done in its major interventions, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, is demonstrate its weakness to do much in this part of the world. In both cases, retreat was required, even after spending billions of dollars, not to mention thousands of lives of young people. The hubris of shock and awe eventually came down to the fallback of retreat and political spin.

With so little success in places like Iraq, which at the time anyway seemed to Washington to be key to its foreign policy goals, there is no way that any sort of military adventure is going to take place in areas that are much further down the list of geopolitical priorities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 20:17
Leave Africa to the Africans. The long history of exploration and colonialism has only proven one thing. They remain much they way they were 1500 years ago. slavery and kidnapping remains a fine high art for them. it did then it does now.

Wasting treasure, blood and lives on those who do not wish for a civilisation in higher form than a tribal chieftains viewpoint and version and vision is useless.


And those Africans who do.. than remain responsible for it's creation..not the rest of the world..no matter the security interests perceived or falsified.

And that includes the anti-American haters who covertly have the same interests. But remain to cowardly to admit to them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 21:15
Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

Leave Africa to the Africans. The long history of exploration and colonialism has only proven one thing. They remain much they way they were 1500 years ago. slavery and kidnapping remains a fine high art for them. it did then it does now.

Wasting treasure, blood and lives on those who do not wish for a civilisation in higher form than a tribal chieftains viewpoint and version and vision is useless.


And those Africans who do.. than remain responsible for it's creation..not the rest of the world..no matter the security interests perceived or falsified.

Making blanket statements about a billion people is pretty much meaningless. In any population group, there will be a variety of personalities and behaviors. Generally speaking, the vast majority of us are neither saints nor sinners, and will behave in a reasonable way, at least will do so barring extreme stress and provocation. As we have seen over and over in history though, it doesn't take much for civilization to erode, and, as Shakespeare put it, people are crying havoc all over the place. In chaotic situations, the worst can often rise to the top. We have examples of this today in Ukraine, in former Yugoslavia a few years back, in Northern Ireland, Nazi Germany......it's a long list, and they're not all black folks.

My guess is that most Africans want a better life for themselves and their children. Getting it is no easy matter though. Many thousands die trying, on leaky boats crossing the Mediterranean, and in other places. The world should try and help, but the reality is, as I said earlier, help will be limited due to the effects of realpolitik. 

Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:


And that includes the anti-American haters who covertly have the same interests. But remain to cowardly to admit to them.

Can you be more specific?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 17:33
Am I the only one who sees the whole African situation as being incongruous, having regard to the fact that, according to science, Africa was the cradle of human kind?
 
One might have thought that, over the millenia, the African people would have led the way in civilisation, but as someone said, the people, largely remain in almost pre-historic tribalism, with a pinch of modernity thrown in.
 
Many events over the past fifty years indicate that many Africans have not progressed beyond the base savagery of early mankind, taking power not by politics but by mass murder and terror. The genocide of the Tutsi people by the Hutus in Rwanda is one which the world should never forget. The current situation in many African countries is not much better.
 
The African people may have peopled the world as we know it, but those left behind stagnated and never caught uo to their migratory ancestors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 18:40
It's true that large parts of Africa are pretty chaotic today. But they are not alone in history, even recent history.

Within the last century, we have seen some of the largest examples of tribal warfare and genocide ever.........in Europe. Namely, world wars one and two. The difference between them and Africa was the tribes were bigger and much better organized. Germans and their (numerous) allies slaughtered 6 million Jews, and about 20 million Russians, among others. Russians then raped and murdered their way back across Eastern Europe, taking out perhaps 2 million German civilians in revenge. Makes Africans look a bit amateur doesn't it?

This wasn't enough to leave a lasting impression on some Europeans though, as this behavior was repeated on a smaller scale in N Ireland from the '60s, in Yugoslavia in the '90s, and today there is still the potential for more in Ukraine today.

Colonists in America fought a three centuries long genocidal war against some other tribes who were less advanced than they, and were uppity enough to insist they didn't want to change to suit the newcomers.

In another part of the world with a long history of human culture, extremists killed about 3 million of their own tribe, for reasons that were political, but rather hard for the civilized mind to fathom. Cambodia, 1970s.

As Jared Diamond describes in his books, there are geographical, demographic, and historical reasons why some areas fall behind, and others speed ahead. Those that find themselves subject to such factors are not necessarily savage, but humans being what they are, they will tend to react to the world around them. And this can be pretty grim- in a lot of places in the world.

By the way, there is a good op-ed piece in the New York Times on this subject today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 01:03
Can you be more specific


The usual suspects.ie. the do nothing UN-EU whose anti-Americanism is constant; except for when dollars and boots are needed. As they remain vacillating and craven in large measure to provide them. Due exceptions noted.

The thugs of the Russian empire. The PRC and cronies. The insane fundamentalist Islamists of Iran and their lap dogs. All of them and more, for one reason or another have an interest in either exploiting Africa or ensuring it's constant chaos. And then exploiting Africa. All the while advocating peaceable non interference. All of them actually encouraging chaos, rape, murder, kidnapping and violence, religious intolerance and bigotry and tribalism, worthy of and in emulation of Shaka Zulu's.

20 centuries later colonialism not withstanding Africa remains Africa.

The names have changed the game remains the same.

Reminds me of 5th ce. Athenian Sophists.

Rhetoric and words fed to the mass that attempt to impress but resolve nothing.

Edited by Arlington - 10 May 2014 at 01:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 02:23
Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

Can you be more specific


The usual suspects.ie. the do nothing UN-EU whose anti-Americanism is constant; except for when dollars and boots are needed. As they remain vacillating and craven in large measure to provide them. Due exceptions noted.

France has intervened militarily in a number of former French colonies, the UN supports a number of aid efforts in Africa, the African Union has provided peacekeeping troops in a number of troubled areas. Other African troops have provided support for UN sponsored missions. Scandinavian members of the EU usually contribute more per capita to these sorts of aid missions than anyone else, including the US.

What boots are you talking about specifically? The only major US intervention in sub-Saharan Africa in recent times has been in Somalia. A good hearted effort yes, but it was cut short when violence was encountered. The boots soon left. Those closer to home had no other option than to stay.

Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:


The thugs of the Russian empire. The PRC and cronies. The insane fundamentalist Islamists of Iran and their lap dogs. All of them and more, for one reason or another have an interest in either exploiting Africa or ensuring it's constant chaos. And then exploiting Africa. All the while advocating peaceable non interference. All of them actually encouraging chaos, rape, murder, kidnapping and violence, religious intolerance and bigotry and tribalism, worthy of and in emulation of Shaka Zulu's.

Russia has had little use for Africa since the cold war. There is nothing needed there, and so they don't particularly care. China, although for  motives that aren't exactly saintly, has put massive aid into Africa, building up infrastructure, and providing much needed capital and technology. China has a huge population, and not enough resources at home to satisfy everyone. What they really need from Africa is stability, so they can extract resources, and grow food. Chaos is the last thing they want, although they are willing to deal with the dregs of humanity to get what they want.

As for Islamists, my feeling is that most don't really know what they want. I think all they know is that the world is moving too fast for their limited, colloquial minds to accept, and they are hoping for a return to a semi-mythical past, one in which their narrow focus will be safe. 

Iran has little connection with Africa- they have enough of their own problems, and for them, Africa may as well be the moon- they have no interests there.


Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:


20 centuries later colonialism not withstanding Africa remains Africa.

The names have changed the game remains the same.

Reminds me of 5th ce. Athenian Sophists.

Rhetoric and words fed to the mass that attempt to impress but resolve nothing.

Actually, Africa has changed in recent years, and despite all their problems, many countries there are seeing high rates of growth. Unfortunately, when regions like this go downhill, the best and brightest are often the first to leave, meaning those that are best equipped to turn things around are no longer available, leaving the field to clowns and incompetents.  We can see the same thing happening today in Syria, Iraq, Iran, and other places.

http://www.cfr.org/world/african-peacekeeping-operations/p9333
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 03:42
Captain: While I generally agree with you on this issue, I must take exception to you including Northern Ireland in this thread.
 
The Irish people have resisted British rule for nearly a thousand years, and will continue to do so.
 
Granted, the violence committed by both protagonists is almost tribal, but not to be compared with Rwanda for example, or by Uganda under Idi Amins regime.
 
What we're seeing in Nigeria and the Congo, for example, is uncurtailed mass murder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 17:31
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain: While I generally agree with you on this issue, I must take exception to you including Northern Ireland in this thread.
 
The Irish people have resisted British rule for nearly a thousand years, and will continue to do so.
 
Granted, the violence committed by both protagonists is almost tribal, but not to be compared with Rwanda for example, or by Uganda under Idi Amins regime.
 
What we're seeing in Nigeria and the Congo, for example, is uncurtailed mass murder.

I included N Ireland as an example that the cycle of violence we see in Africa can be, and has been, repeated by various ethnic and racial groups, in all areas of the world. All that it takes is to divide any given population into two or more groups: our group, which we tend to see as going the right thing, and the others, which tend to do the wrong thing. That's all we need to get started, the apparent real life evidence that our long ingrained tribal urges have substance. English and Irish, Tutsi and Hutu, Sunni and Shia, the principles are the same.

Once one outrage is committed, it tends to cause reprisal, and this can get bigger and bigger, given certain circumstances, until very awful things happen. For example, in WW2 both Britain and Germany were originally a little cautious about bombing each others cities. They knew that retribution was possible, and so hoped things would not go that far. As the war dragged on, the stakes got higher, and emotions got more inflamed, this eventually went out the window. Bombing increased until we eventually had the thousand bomber raids, killing thousands of civilians. It was a classic case of a cycle of violence that spiraled up to the point where otherwise peaceable, civilized individuals were  killing on an industrial scale. But they had to do it, you say? Yep, well that's what the IRA said, and the SAS, and myriad others.

In areas that are already benighted, things can get worse faster. If there is already pressure on a population from poverty, overcrowding, environmental destruction, a lack of established law and civil institutions, no history of democratic traditions, then the descent into tribal behavior is that much quicker. N Ireland, although no paradise, is far from the worst in these categories, very likely a reason why its conflict doesn't look more like Nigeria, for which all of the above apply in spades.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 23:16
Due exceptions noted.



You must have missed that part.

I give credit where it's due. French-Brit-Canadian. All have done yeomans works.

The Northerns? Perhaps.

Not impressed though. Their involvement in the GW's, limited is the key, speaks for itself; valiant but insufficient. Canute and his Viking hordes are long gone. At this point it's all their good at as far as Africa is concerned. Their participation in a full scale conflict in Africa is a pipe dream. Blocked by their own policies and ties to the craven EU. In turn sucking the teat of Russian gas and oil.


The AU? Supplicants of those who have trained and equipped them not a serious force worth worrying about(the Goumiers are long gone).

Other than killing themselves in internecine conflict.

No.. agree or dis..matters little to me.


Pull out and leave it to the PRC. That's my plan. Its what the EU socialists yearn for anyway....''peace in our time.''





Edited by Arlington - 10 May 2014 at 23:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2014 at 05:25
Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

Due exceptions noted.



You must have missed that part.

I give credit where it's due. French-Brit-Canadian. All have done yeomans works.

The Northerns? Perhaps.

Not impressed though. Their involvement in the GW's, limited is the key, speaks for itself; valiant but insufficient. Canute and his Viking hordes are long gone. At this point it's all their good at as far as Africa is concerned. Their participation in a full scale conflict in Africa is a pipe dream. Blocked by their own policies and ties to the craven EU. In turn sucking the teat of Russian gas and oil.

Exceptions? It's pretty much the whole story isn't it? Your original claim was that most of the world was only interested in creating turmoil in Africa in pursuit of their own interests, or at best, sitting back in a cowardly fashion and doing nothing, while the US provided the funding and boots on the ground.

The US funds the UN following the formula all others do: they pay in relation to their size. That's what the US does, no more, no less. Overall the US is not a particularly large contributor to aid programs, in proportion to its size and economy. As said, the Scandinavian countries tend to take the lead here. The EU, and France in particular, have invested considerable sums in peacekeeping and aid missions in Africa.

As for boots, aside from Somalia, mentioned above, US military intervention in sub-Saharan Africa has been minimal to non-existent since the second world war. The only forays there tended to be during the cold war, when the US simply funded whoever opposed the Soviets, come what may (not really a good formula for stability there, was it?). Peacekeeping there has tended to fall to smaller countries contributing to the UN. They have tried, and often failed, after asking for more resources from the world's larger economies. The mess in Rwanda was left to a handful of troops from places like Belgium, Canada, Bangladesh, etc. They put themselves in harm's way, but did not have enough support from those that could have provided it. The US stayed out of it. Somalia was also short lived. When serious shooting started, the US pulled out.

Today peacekeeping in Somalia is done by the AU, with primary funding coming from the EU. Yes, those are African people on the front line, taking hits. Far from being craven, Europeans can be found in numerous places on the continent, working for the UN, Doctors without Borders, or other agencies. Their "policies" are to provide as much support as is reasonable to a continent in turmoil.

As for sucking up that Russian gas, sorry to break it to you, but that is the way the world works. The US has twisted itself into pretzels in recent years to keep the flow of oil going from extremist states in the Middle East, often doing business with the Devil. Few in the world have everything they need, or at least believe they need, and so bartering is the order of the day, and always has been, even though there are some objectionable people in the marketplace. 

Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:


The AU? Supplicants of those who have trained and equipped them not a serious force worth worrying about(the Goumiers are long gone).

Other than killing themselves in internecine conflict.

No.. agree or dis..matters little to me.


Pull out and leave it to the PRC. That's my plan. Its what the EU socialists yearn for anyway....''peace in our time.''




You are now bringing in socialism and appeasement, but I'm beginning to suspect your knowledge here is slight in relation to this part of the discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2014 at 07:02
Captain:
I suppose my thoughts on matters like this come across as a bit niaive, but in reality I usually try to look on the bright side.
 
While I would like to see the world respond to this type of internal terrorism, I realise full well that there usually has to be a quid pro quo, and if there's not, well, the world ain't interested.
 
Politics has to be dirtiest game in town, with accomodations being made right left and centre to appease a political agenda, and usually the voting public has no idea of what's going on behind the scenes.
 
I fully understand why we have no official "World Policeman" but that doesn't stop me from hoping that, one day............
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2014 at 16:13
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

Due exceptions noted.



You must have missed that part.

I give credit where it's due. French-Brit-Canadian. All have done yeomans works.

The Northerns? Perhaps.

Not impressed though. Their involvement in the GW's, limited is the key, speaks for itself; valiant but insufficient. Canute and his Viking hordes are long gone. At this point it's all their good at as far as Africa is concerned. Their participation in a full scale conflict in Africa is a pipe dream. Blocked by their own policies and ties to the craven EU. In turn sucking the teat of Russian gas and oil.

Exceptions? It's pretty much the whole story isn't it? Your original claim was that most of the world was only interested in creating turmoil in Africa in pursuit of their own interests, or at best, sitting back in a cowardly fashion and doing nothing, while the US provided the funding and boots on the ground.

The US funds the UN following the formula all others do: they pay in relation to their size. That's what the US does, no more, no less. Overall the US is not a particularly large contributor to aid programs, in proportion to its size and economy. As said, the Scandinavian countries tend to take the lead here. The EU, and France in particular, have invested considerable sums in peacekeeping and aid missions in Africa.

As for boots, aside from Somalia, mentioned above, US military intervention in sub-Saharan Africa has been minimal to non-existent since the second world war. The only forays there tended to be during the cold war, when the US simply funded whoever opposed the Soviets, come what may (not really a good formula for stability there, was it?). Peacekeeping there has tended to fall to smaller countries contributing to the UN. They have tried, and often failed, after asking for more resources from the world's larger economies. The mess in Rwanda was left to a handful of troops from places like Belgium, Canada, Bangladesh, etc. They put themselves in harm's way, but did not have enough support from those that could have provided it. The US stayed out of it. Somalia was also short lived. When serious shooting started, the US pulled out.

Today peacekeeping in Somalia is done by the AU, with primary funding coming from the EU. Yes, those are African people on the front line, taking hits. Far from being craven, Europeans can be found in numerous places on the continent, working for the UN, Doctors without Borders, or other agencies. Their "policies" are to provide as much support as is reasonable to a continent in turmoil.

As for sucking up that Russian gas, sorry to break it to you, but that is the way the world works. The US has twisted itself into pretzels in recent years to keep the flow of oil going from extremist states in the Middle East, often doing business with the Devil. Few in the world have everything they need, or at least believe they need, and so bartering is the order of the day, and always has been, even though there are some objectionable people in the marketplace. 

Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:


The AU? Supplicants of those who have trained and equipped them not a serious force worth worrying about(the Goumiers are long gone).

Other than killing themselves in internecine conflict.

No.. agree or dis..matters little to me.


Pull out and leave it to the PRC. That's my plan. Its what the EU socialists yearn for anyway....''peace in our time.''





You are now bringing in socialism and appeasement, but I'm beginning to suspect your knowledge here is slight in relation to this part of the discussion.



Believe what you wish. Your approval is not required. Though you might believe it is...it isn't.

Edited by Arlington - 11 May 2014 at 16:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 02:59
Amnesty International accused Nigerian Officials of doing nothing despite being aware of incoming raid.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/09/world/africa/nigeria-abducted-girls/

I heard many more stuff which I cannot confirm yet. But they appear to be very likely as apparent Western mobilisation implies:

"International response

The international effort to buttress that fight ratcheted up Friday with the arrival of U.S. and British advisers.

Six U.S. military advisers arrived Friday, a U.S. official told CNN. They will join a team of U.S. and British officials already in Nigeria, helping find the girls, planning rescue efforts and devising strategies to help subdue Boko Haram.

A British team drawn from the country's Department for International Development, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry of Defence also arrived in Abuja on Friday, the British foreign office said.

France also said it is sending a team but didn't provide specifics on what expertise it will bring.

British satellites and advanced tracking capabilities also will be used, and China has promised to provide any intelligence gathered by its satellite network, Nigeria said.

There are no plans to send U.S. combat troops, Kirby said."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 03:09
PoH:
I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make here.
 
Is it that the US aren't sending assistance.
 
The fact that the Nigerian government was warned of the impending attack is well known now.
 
Btw. There's been another incident involving a family being kidnapped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 09:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain:
I suppose my thoughts on matters like this come across as a bit niaive, but in reality I usually try to look on the bright side.
 
While I would like to see the world respond to this type of internal terrorism, I realise full well that there usually has to be a quid pro quo, and if there's not, well, the world ain't interested.
 
Politics has to be dirtiest game in town, with accomodations being made right left and centre to appease a political agenda, and usually the voting public has no idea of what's going on behind the scenes.
 
I fully understand why we have no official "World Policeman" but that doesn't stop me from hoping that, one day............

I think these things can be a little bit like cops intervening in a domestic dispute. They are there for altruistic reasons, but the complainants often tend to start seeing them as on one side or the other, or otherwise resent their presence. Tribalism can be an insidious force.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 08:53
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain:
I suppose my thoughts on matters like this come across as a bit niaive, but in reality I usually try to look on the bright side.
 
While I would like to see the world respond to this type of internal terrorism, I realise full well that there usually has to be a quid pro quo, and if there's not, well, the world ain't interested.
 
Politics has to be dirtiest game in town, with accomodations being made right left and centre to appease a political agenda, and usually the voting public has no idea of what's going on behind the scenes.
 
I fully understand why we have no official "World Policeman" but that doesn't stop me from hoping that, one day............

I think these things can be a little bit like cops intervening in a domestic dispute. They are there for altruistic reasons, but the complainants often tend to start seeing them as on one side or the other, or otherwise resent their presence. Tribalism can be an insidious force.
 
From my personal experience, it's very often the case that having been called by the wife, as soon as the husband is arrested, she also turns on the police. That places them in the classic no win situation.
 
I'm rather amazed that tribalism exists to such an extent in Africa after all these years.
 
 
 
 
Once you eliminate the impossible,
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no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 17:24
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain:

I suppose my thoughts on matters like this come across as a bit niaive, but in reality I usually try to look on the bright side.

 

While I would like to see the world respond to this type of internal terrorism, I realise full well that there usually has to be a quid pro quo, and if there's not, well, the world ain't interested.

 

Politics has to be dirtiest game in town, with accomodations being made right left and centre to appease a political agenda, and usually the voting public has no idea of what's going on behind the scenes.

 

I fully understand why we have no official "World Policeman" but that doesn't stop me from hoping that, one day............



I think these things can be a little bit like cops intervening in a domestic dispute. They are there for altruistic reasons, but the complainants often tend to start seeing them as on one side or the other, or otherwise resent their presence. Tribalism can be an insidious force.




 

From my personal experience, it's very often the case that having been called by the wife, as soon as the husband is arrested, she also turns on the police. That places them in the classic no win situation.

 

I'm rather amazed that tribalism exists to such an extent in Africa after all these years.

 

 

 

 



Your last is interesting Toyo. There are some who would claim that in America; the introduction of the very generous and ongoing welfare state (LBJ-60's) removed select tribalism patterns in AA's. By replacing the requirement of the father as a primary provider.

Other's maintain a resurgence. And return to a tribalism pattern of behaviors viz bastardized versions and identification of the same, with the formation of the street thug and gang culture. That occurred and became prominent during the same era.

Violence, rape, robbery, murder, and especially same race crime.

Consequently one can make the claim that tribalism in it's entirety never disappeared at all.

I continue to observe and compare and have not yet made any definitive conclusions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2014 at 02:35
Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

 

Your last is interesting Toyo. There are some who would claim that in America; the introduction of the very generous and ongoing welfare state (LBJ-60's) removed select tribalism patterns in AA's. By replacing the requirement of the father as a primary provider.

Other's maintain a resurgence. And return to a tribalism pattern of behaviors viz bastardized versions and identification of the same, with the formation of the street thug and gang culture. That occurred and became prominent during the same era.

Violence, rape, robbery, murder, and especially same race crime.

Consequently one can make the claim that tribalism in it's entirety never disappeared at all.

I continue to observe and compare and have not yet made any definitive conclusions.

Tribalism certainly has not disappeared, but it is far from being limited to black "welfare bums". In fact gang violence in the US has increased considerably since the days of LBJ, despite Reagan declaring it was morning in America (morning for the well connected, that is), Clinton declaring the end of welfare as we know it, and a general retreat from social democracy, characterized by continuous reductions in tax revenue, and the resultant reduction in social programs. Your correlation of welfare and crime is off by just about 180 degrees.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/htus8008pr.cfm

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/11/welfare_spendin.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2014 at 04:33
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

 

Your last is interesting Toyo. There are some who would claim that in America; the introduction of the very generous and ongoing welfare state (LBJ-60's) removed select tribalism patterns in AA's. By replacing the requirement of the father as a primary provider.

Other's maintain a resurgence. And return to a tribalism pattern of behaviors viz bastardized versions and identification of the same, with the formation of the street thug and gang culture. That occurred and became prominent during the same era.

Violence, rape, robbery, murder, and especially same race crime.

Consequently one can make the claim that tribalism in it's entirety never disappeared at all.

I continue to observe and compare and have not yet made any definitive conclusions.


Tribalism certainly has not disappeared, but it is far from being limited to black "welfare bums". In fact gang violence in the US has increased considerably since the days of LBJ, despite Reagan declaring it was morning in America (morning for the well connected, that is), Clinton declaring the end of welfare as we know it, and a general retreat from social democracy, characterized by continuous reductions in tax revenue, and the resultant reduction in social programs. Your correlation of welfare and crime is off by just about 180 degrees.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/htus8008pr.cfm

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/11/welfare_spendin.html



''Other's maintain a resurgence.''


''I continue to observe and compare and have not yet made any definitive conclusions.''

Your assignment of myself as one who concurs is intellectually lazy and blatantly dishonest.

Apparently you are not capable of reading a simple post..or your cherry picking those parts that you would assign to me as my own beliefs; when it was clearly stated that I yet have arrived at no conclusions.

Which then makes you either a troll, a liar and intellectual charlatan. Or just a common spammer.

In either case, this will be my last response to your inane commentary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2014 at 15:05
No, I think that tribalism in an underlying facet of the human condition, and that, given the right set of circumstances, it can bubble to the top to dominate the thoughts and actions of otherwise intelligent, rational and sane human beings.
 
I recognise that tribalism in the USA often means ethnic based gang members killing each other, or being involved in "drive bys" to prove their masculinity. But it can also mean the reverse, e.g. the rich and famous clubbing together with a common goal, to the exclusion of the lower socio economic groups.
 
While the OP was about Nigeria, and I don't want to wander too far off topic, other members have highlighted other examples of modern tribalism, a topical example also being Afghanistan, where tribal culture influences the countrys politics, New Guinea, a perhaps less advance culture, but one where tribal culture frequently results in murder, and so on. I even provided the example of the Bosnian War.
 
But, back to Nigeria-this gang must be apprehended, the girls released and the offenders punished.
Once you eliminate the impossible,
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no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2014 at 18:34
Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

 

''Other's maintain a resurgence.''


''I continue to observe and compare and have not yet made any definitive conclusions.''

Your assignment of myself as one who concurs is intellectually lazy and blatantly dishonest.

Apparently you are not capable of reading a simple post..or your cherry picking those parts that you would assign to me as my own beliefs; when it was clearly stated that I yet have arrived at no conclusions.

Which then makes you either a troll, a liar and intellectual charlatan. Or just a common spammer.

In either case, this will be my last response to your inane commentary.


I encourage you, Arlingtion, to continue to post your views here on historical topics. In my experience on this site however, I've found that those with the most extravagant claims usually are the same ones that receive the most challenges. You have made some extravagant claims- and have been challenged. You may choose to look on those challenges as personal attack, and retreat into defensive statements in response. I can assure you that on my part, and those of other posters I've seen currently frequenting these pages, the responses are meant in the spirit of rigorous intellectual debate, not personal slight. Making a clear statement of your position, and being prepared to respond to contrary points made, would be more conductive of fulfilling debate here than name calling, or retreat in angry silence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2014 at 05:10
There now seems to be a groundswell of opinion against Boko Haram by other African states.
 
Hopefully they can join forces and rescue to girls soon.
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2014 at 12:47
It's bloody amazing.
 
A few weeks go by and this story just vanishes from the pages of our newspapers, and is absent from TV newscasts.
 
Have these women been rescued and we haven't been informed?
 
Has Boko Haram been destroyed?
 
Or is simply that the MH-17 story bumped the Nigerian story out of existance?
 
 
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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