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Trump & foreign matters

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    Posted: 14 Nov 2017 at 01:39
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

yes, for now, if someone else revives this thread, then great, but I won't bother with it for now, but only if others bring it back forth.

Quote "Well, the cows gone dry and the hens won't lay,
The fish stopped bitin' last Saturday.
Life gets teejus, don't it?" Walter Brennan.
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2017 at 23:01
yes, for now, if someone else revives this thread, then great, but I won't bother with it for now, but only if others bring it back forth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2017 at 01:36
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We (you toyomotor, and I, franciscosan) can leave sleeping dogs lie, if someone else wants to pick it up (and wake up a dog), that would be fine, I (and you) should worry about what to do, then.  I don't know how many people read the Trump threads but don't actively participate.  Maybe someone new would like to say something. Clap

So, we two people agree to cease and desist, do we?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 22:15
We (you toyomotor, and I, franciscosan) can leave sleeping dogs lie, if someone else wants to pick it up (and wake up a dog), that would be fine, I (and you) should worry about what to do, then.  I don't know how many people read the Trump threads but don't actively participate.  Maybe someone new would like to say something. Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 22:05
Do you think it's time we terminated the Trump topics.

They've upset and insulted one of our members, and we don't want that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 02:33
Donald Trump in the campaign blamed China for American economic "problems."

But in a speech to the Chinese he said it was not the Chinese fault, that they were only doing what
nations should be doing.  For Trump it is all former administrations' fault.

He can't have it both ways?  It just does not work.  But, I understand why he schmoozed with the Chinese, in his "predator" attitude towards life, he likes the Chinese being predators.  One is supposed to be a predator, and so to him they are doing what should be done.  Now a lot of Chinese are hungrier than Americans, but there is a global system that serves nations and there is a system of rules for that global system which China plays fast and loose with, and they are allowed to get away with it, but not following cultural property rules, and copyright drags on the entire system.  There are things they are responsible for that are detrimental, not just to us, but to everybody.  They should be smacked down, but I am not sure that Trump has the heart for it, or worse, he will try, but bollox it up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 02:17
There are two prominent power groups in North Korea,
Kim Jong Un's family
military.
Getting rid of old timers in the military consolidates Kim Jong Un's power, it also means he doesn't have to cater to them as much.  But, I am not sure that that makes for more stability.  It seems that just means that they will be more likely to play follow the leader into catastrophe.

There is no one who knows more than an 18 year old, sophomore in college.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 01:47
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

Quote Family members in government positions isn't what I'd like to see. Equally concerning -an administration full of people disloyal to the administration, wiki leaking all over themselves.

I agree, it's a peculiar position to be in, sharing your administration with people opposed to you and your policies. One good reason I suppose to employ family members whose loyalty is beyond question, but hardly an ideal situation.


Quote Old Generals? Meaning people who don't obey him? Why do new generals serve KJU better than old ones?

No, I think that the perception would be that some of these general are simply too old to take the country to war. Many are over 70yrs of age. OTH, the young up and comers would be more likely to injest some zeal into conflict.
Older people also know more. Wink  Puts KJU off his cheetos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 00:52
Vanuatu

Quote Family members in government positions isn't what I'd like to see. Equally concerning -an administration full of people disloyal to the administration, wiki leaking all over themselves.

I agree, it's a peculiar position to be in, sharing your administration with people opposed to you and your policies. One good reason I suppose to employ family members whose loyalty is beyond question, but hardly an ideal situation.


Quote Old Generals? Meaning people who don't obey him? Why do new generals serve KJU better than old ones?

No, I think that the perception would be that some of these general are simply too old to take the country to war. Many are over 70yrs of age. OTH, the young up and comers would be more likely to injest some zeal into conflict.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2017 at 00:44
Quote franciscosan-I always wonder if things quiet down on an issue because they have genuinely quieted down, or if they appear to quiet down, because we go into a new news cycle, when the people who have the concentration of a gnat, and the media switch topics in order to have something "new" to report.
Hard to say, some things just won't go away others should be heard but public interest is too low for ratings. You are correct to have pointed out the value of multi sources of information. How much will Hollywood profit from Harvey Weinstein after enabling him for decades? Movie$, book$ lol.

Quote It is said that Americans believe problems can get solved in 30 minutes if it is a comic issue, and 60 minutes if it is a serious issue, it is even less time than that, if one includes commercial brakes.  The saying, "out of sight, out of mind" seems especially applicable to foreign issues in strange countries.
There's that annoying and increasingly frequent phenomenon. And then there's my new favorite where people are behaving as if they are starring in a reality tv show the cameras are hidden but there is definitely a performance going on, others are in on it too. Describing PTA meeting.

Quote I guess if the launch sites (?cement pads??) are crumbling, then there may genuinely be a break.
So this is pretty unsettling. No major fault lines in NoKo but they have plenty of earthquakes. One on the 12th was 2.7. That can't be good for a landscape dug out with tunnels, radioactive materials and mountain ranges. 
 

http://sputniknews.com/asia/201710121058183289-earthquake-north-korea-speculation-nuke/

Early on Friday, yet another earthquake was detected near the Punggye-ri nuclear test site in North Korea, where Chinese scientists have warned that more nuclear tests could cause the mountain to crumble in on itself and spread radiation.

The earthquake was small, according to media reports, but large enough to cause entire buildings in Russia and China to shake, the Daily Mail reported. Previous tests have caused earthquakes in the area surrounding North Korea's only known nuclear testing location.

This:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/10/13/north-korea-may-have-destabilized-nuclear-testing-

grounds-experts-say.html

South Korea’s weather agency detected a 2.7 magnitude earthquake near the Punggye-ri test site, Reuters reported.

“I think the Punggye-ri region is now pretty saturated. If it goes ahead with another test in this area, it could risk radioactive pollution,” Kim So-gu, the head researcher at the Korea Seismological Institute, told Reuters.

Friday's quake marked the country’s fourth since an underground nuclear test in the Punggye-ri region on Sept. 3, which caused a 6.3 magnitude tremor. North Korea has claimed the test, its sixth and most powerful yet, was a hydrogen bomb. U.S. intelligence reportedly determined the blast was 10 times greater than that of the nuclear bomb dropped over Hiroshima at the end of World War II.



Edited by Vanuatu - 14 Oct 2017 at 01:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2017 at 15:32
Quote  But anyway, he's promoted his sister to a position of prominence in his administration (remind you of someone else?) in order to shore up his personal support. There are also rumours that he's having a clean out of the Old Generals, again promoting fresher blood to high positions. Could be he's going on to a war footing.

Family members in government positions isn't what I'd like to see. Equally concerning -an administration full of people disloyal to the administration, wiki leaking all over themselves.

Old Generals? Meaning people who don't obey him? Why do new generals serve KJU better than old ones?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 21:13
I think that there is another (unintended meaning) of peeing over the line.  Bullies will challenge each other to 'cross that line,' it would seem just like Trump to not cross that line, but pee over it.  Not that i think that would be a good strategy, I just think that it is like something Trump would want to do.

I always wonder if things quiet down on an issue because they have genuinely quieted down, or if they appear to quiet down, because we go into a new news cycle, when the people who have the concentration of a gnat, and the media switch topics in order to have something "new" to report.

I guess if the launch sites (?cement pads??) are crumbling, then there may genuinely be a break.

It is said that Americans believe problems can get solved in 30 minutes if it is a comic issue, and 60 minutes if it is a serious issue, it is even less time than that, if one includes commercial brakes.  The saying, "out of sight, out of mind" seems especially applicable to foreign issues in strange countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 19:50
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

toyomotor, the Line is the fictitious line between No & SoKo.

franciscosan, Junior's Junior is the third KJU, son of KJIl, son of Kim Il -sung.

Dark, do you know anything about the NoKo missile launch sites crumbling ? 

1. Thank you, I understand now.  LOL

2. So, he's really the third KIM-the other names are their first names.

3. I read somewhere that there's a rumour to that effect, and that's the only reason he hasn't launched more missiles.

4. But anyway, he's promoted his sister to a position of prominence in his administration (remind you of someone else?) in order to shore up his personal support. There are also rumours that he's having a clean out of the Old Generals, again promoting fresher blood to high positions. Could be he's going on to a war footing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 13:50
toyomotor, the Line is the fictitious line between No & SoKo.

franciscosan, Junior's Junior is the third KJU, son of KJIl, son of Kim Il -sung.

Dark, do you know anything about the NoKo missile launch sites crumbling ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 02:42
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Dark Warrior Dark Warrior wrote:

Junior's junior remains a punk wannabe.i recommend an immediate B52 fly by exactly one mile out... out over the Sea and into international waters right on up the coast of the PRC.

Or have a attack class surface...in international waters..off the coast and let the PRC monitor a missile lock onto the DPRK....they will sh*tt into their rice bowls. And do nothing.


Being somewhat of a hawk, I tend to agree with you.

Better still if the were multiple "lock-ons" from many ships etc.


Indeed. To date them Tomahawks have an amazing success ratio. Junior's junior needs to remember that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 01:59
You the DMZ is a strip of land that has basically returned to nature, birds and deer indigenous to South Korea, rare in other regions of the peninsula occupy the Zone,  Not having man around has been good for mother nature.

Of course, every once in awhile Bam! bi trips of a land mine.

I wonder how secret service protection would work in the DMZ, guards in the DMZ are trained black belts, because the zone is _demilitarized_, no firearms.  Maybe it wouldn't workSmile, and we would find out the hard way,Cry but no, then we would probably have to go to war for honor's sake, and personally I don't think it would be worth it.

I think flybys outside North Korean airspace, are probably the right level of pressure right now.

Junior's junior is punk?  I am not sure what that means.  The reason I heard about his hairdo, is that it adds three inches to his height.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 00:58
Originally posted by Dark Warrior Dark Warrior wrote:

Junior's junior remains a punk wannabe.i recommend an immediate B52 fly by exactly one mile out... out over the Sea and into international waters right on up the coast of the PRC.

Or have a attack class surface...in international waters..off the coast and let the PRC monitor a missile lock onto the DPRK....they will sh*tt into their rice bowls. And do nothing.

Being somewhat of a hawk, I tend to agree with you.

Better still if the were multiple "lock-ons" from many ships etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 00:56
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Smile
Trump's going to pee over the line.

What does that mean?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 18:51
Junior's junior remains a punk wannabe.i recommend an immediate B52 fly by exactly one mile out... out over the Sea and into international waters right on up the coast of the PRC.

Or have a attack class surface...in international waters..off the coast and let the PRC monitor a missile lock onto the DPRK....they will sh*tt into their rice bowls. And do nothing.

Edited by Dark Warrior - 11 Oct 2017 at 18:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 13:58
Smile
Trump's going to pee over the line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 05:02
Quote
SEOUL (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump may travel to the heavily fortified demilitarized zone (DMZ) separating North and South Korea when he visits South Korea next month, the South’s Yonhap news agency said on Tuesday, citing a defense source.

But the real reason is.......




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2017 at 16:35
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Those diplomats came home bc they were targeted in their beds, not just at home but in hotel room too. They are very sick now some probably disabled.

May not be the Cuban government as in, Raul. Cuba ranks 60 on the corruption index, this sonic attack happened to Canadian diplomats in Cuba. At least ten cases were detected by the Mounties. They also removed their people in service.    

I'd like to see a lot more investigation into this-the source of the problem.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2017 at 16:26
Those diplomats came home bc they were targeted in their beds, not just at home but in hotel room too. They are very sick now some probably disabled.

May not be the Cuban government as in, Raul. Cuba ranks 60 on the corruption index, this sonic attack happened to Canadian diplomats in Cuba. At least ten cases were detected by the Mounties. They also removed their people in service.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2017 at 00:33
CUBA

During the latter part of the Obama administration, relations between the USA and Cuba improved, and that was good for the Cuban people who have suffered for many years as the result of various embargoes.

Since Trump's election, it seems that relationships have soured, especially since the mystery illness suffered by US diplomatic staff in Havana.

I wonder if the illness was somehow caused by Cubans, or was it caused by a third party with the intention of stopping the USA/Cuba relationship from regularising? After all, the warming of relations between the two countries was to the benefit of Cubans, and thus I can't see why Cuba would be behind the mystery illness.

IMHO, a more likely scenario would be that Russia is behind it. Cuba, during the Cold War era, was sponsored by Russia, which would not like to see Cuba more friendly with the US.

Could it have been caused by rogue elements of the US intelligence aparatus? I wouldn't have thought so. A more friendly Cuba would decrease the intelligence focus, allowing the agencies to focus on more volatile situations, such as North Korea.

It's a pity that the US administration decided to send a number of the Cuban Diplomatic Corps home because of it's suspicions that Cuba was behind the mystery illness. Would have been better to work with Cuba to find the source.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 14:31
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Quote Chill out!!

Sure as soon as you stop hyperventilating over John McCain. He lived through the torture you think Trump made him cry?

The Warmbier kid is a completely different story. He was going to CHINA got that? Just stopped in the seventh layer of hell on the way. His parents didn't know he was going to end up in that toilet. 


Nope, but his disabilities shouldn't be made fun of.

Quote Or maybe it was just hate fueled cruelty to punish an American. What logic do you apply to a regime that starves, murders and tortures its OWN people?

Yeah, well there you go, but what is the world going to do about it?



So many things shouldn't BE. Warmbier is dead McCain (lived a long life with lots of good things as well as bad) is alive therefore since Trumps comments didn't cause his death, it should not appall in the way that the Warmbier murder does.

What are we going to do about it? How about we stop breast feeding that disgusting little demon!?
And call him what he is!


Edited by Vanuatu - 02 Oct 2017 at 19:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 06:13
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Quote Chill out!!

Sure as soon as you stop hyperventilating over John McCain. He lived through the torture you think Trump made him cry?

The Warmbier kid is a completely different story. He was going to CHINA got that? Just stopped in the seventh layer of hell on the way. His parents didn't know he was going to end up in that toilet. 


Nope, but his disabilities shouldn't be made fun of.

Quote Or maybe it was just hate fueled cruelty to punish an American. What logic do you apply to a regime that starves, murders and tortures its OWN people?

Yeah, well there you go, but what is the world going to do about it?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 04:06
Quote Chill out!!

Sure as soon as you stop hyperventilating over John McCain. He lived through the torture you think Trump made him cry?

The Warmbier kid is a completely different story. He was going to CHINA got that? Just stopped in the seventh layer of hell on the way. His parents didn't know he was going to end up in that toilet. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 01:24
An Ohio coroner who examined the body of 22-year-old University of Virginia student Otto Warmbier says he died from a lack of oxygen and blood to his brain, but she can't determine how the injury occurred.

I guess franciscosan's brilliant torturers would know how to hide traces of their handy work, since they never intended him to die. They just extracted state secrets out of a high school kid.

Or maybe it was just hate fueled cruelty to punish an American. What logic do you apply to a regime that starves, murders and tortures its OWN people? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 01:00
Vanuatu


Quote "If" ?
You doubt the sincerity of these parents? What do they have to gain by lying? Yet you swallow every spoonful of s*** served up by CNN! Wise Up!

No, you misunderstand me. I was referring to the Coroners verdict that there was no evidence of his being tortured. But this was only an external examination. Is there a result yet on the full Post Mortem?

Of course I don't doubt the sincerity of his parents.

Chill out!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 00:56
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Cases in Syria, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq, when they tortured you, they had a doctor there to make sure that things didn't go too far (as in kill you).  I am sure that North Korea has competent torturers, and I doubt that whomever abused and tormented Otto Warmbier were "competent" in that sense.  It is no virtue to them, but I tend to think it was nasty and brutish guards instead of orders from high above that caused Warmbier's injuries.  Were they sadistic? probably.  In fact, I would not be surprised if Otto was fatally injured soon after his imprisonment, and so they kept him "alive" to heal up superficial wounds and bruises, until he was more "presentable," but still a vegetable, and then released him.

We had a debate 10-14 years ago with the "war on terror" about what constituted torture.  But what some people consider torture, others did not, debating it medically, morally, and legally.  I think that if you have to argue that something is not torture, well you are probably already morally on thin ice.  But there was a reason for the debate, the question of what interrogation techniques are legitimate, and what are beyond the pale.  But, Warmbier was not exposed to interrogation techniques, he was probably more like a mouse, played with by a cat.  IF they had tortured him (and done it 'right'), they would have had a doctor there to make sure they didn't go too far.  No, I think Warmbier was abused and tormented by sadists, if you want to call that torture, then fine.  But, torture has a purpose, and I don't think that what they did had any particular purpose, other than the guards' sadistic pleasure.  My apologies to Warmer's parents, but I doubt they personally have the medical background to accurately judge whether he was tortured.

Ken Burns film on Vietnam is airing on PBS now. One of the observations made after the war by people in high political office or military experts from the time, comment on reasons for the unending poor choices by McNamara, Westmoreland & the Johnson administration. More than one of them points out the foolish notion that what was logical and sensible to Johnson would never been understood by Ho Chi Min or Ngo Dhn Diem or Nyguen Ca Ky in the same way. Johnson was never able to out think the Viet Mihn or Viet Cong or even the South Vietnamese, all ideas were completely lost in translation.
 
Just an aside, yes Vietnamese tortured to extract information but they also kept torturing and keeping prisoners long after the war, right? Why? What were they going to get out of it? I say its was hate fueled commitment to make American suffer. Same as fat little rocket man.

Quote To me, I think that a coroner's report weighs more than the grief of his parents as far as that kind of judgment is concerned.  But, I admit I haven't read the coroner's report, but have just overheard a snippet on TV or radio.  Furthermore, I admit that I have not done much homework on the issue, so that if anyone wants to, anyone can investigate what I consider the weakest link in my argument, not that I "doubt" the word of grieving parents, but that I admit, I haven't investigated further the coroner.  The coroner has a medical and probably a legal knowledge of what torture entails, I trust that over a parent's emotional response as far as what should influence public policy.

The coroner barely indicates cause of death. Is he a student? 
So the mysterious oxygen deprivation that caused his blindness, deafness and ultimately his death , was just too long ago to be identified? B***S*** 
Emotional or not they were not the only people to see Otto deaf, blind, violently jerking his body and screaming. Why would you belittle these parents? This is sickening I'm really disgusted by jackass celebrities and those who would rub salt into the wounds of this family and a whole community that loved this guy.  Now when foreigners come here and get wasted, I'm done giving a s***.


Edited by Vanuatu - 02 Oct 2017 at 01:07
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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