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60's Music

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    Posted: 07 Jul 2018 at 05:00
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2018 at 01:40
OK, thanks.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2018 at 01:28
1967 "Dear Mr Fantasy" Traffic with Little Stevie Winwood a 15 year old white kid who sounded like Ray Charles-



Edited by Vanuatu - 03 Jul 2018 at 01:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 02:09
Never made it to the Australian charts AFAIK.

However bands like Herman's Hermits, the Mersey  Beats, Billy Fury and many other "Mersey Sound" bands did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 01:51
From Wikipedia:

Traffic were an English rock band, formed in Birmingham,[1] in April 1967 by Steve Winwood, Jim Capaldi, Chris Wood and Dave Mason.[2] They began as a psychedelic rock group and diversified their sound through the use of instruments such as keyboards like the Mellotron and harpsichord, sitar, and various reed instruments, and by incorporating jazz and improvisational techniques in their music.[2] Their first three singles were "Paper Sun", "Hole in My Shoe", and "Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush".[1]

Traffic disbanded in 1969, during which time Winwood joined Blind Faith, then reunited in 1970 to release the critically acclaimed album John Barleycorn Must Die. The band's line-up varied from this point until they disbanded again in 1974. A partial reunion, with Winwood and Capaldi, took place in 1994.[2]

Traffic were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2004."


I wasn't sure whether they were late '60s or '70s, surprised you don't know of them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2018 at 01:57
"When was traffic?"

What are you on about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 21:54
Normie Rowe

so my spelling sucks these days, I blame automatic spell checkers. it fixes it when I don't want it (like 'Norma' Rowe) and doesn't fix it when I would need it, and my spelling and sounding out is getting worse all the time.  I probably should try to figure out how to turn it off, if that is possible.

When was 'Traffic'?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 10:12
If you're referring to my post about Normie Rowe who served in a Cavalry Unit in Viet Nam, having just reread the post, I did write "Cavalry".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 04:28
Franciscosan

Yes, I misread your post, but I still don't know what you mean by "Who joined the Air Calvary?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 03:14
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu
I suppose I'm somewhat of a dichotemy.
Although I like the music, I marched in support of our troops during the Viet Nam War.
Make no mistake-I was, and still am, staunchly supporting our troops who go to war. I like the lyrics of most of the songs because they say just what I think, our troops doing as their country orders them, they joined knowing the likelihood of active service, but, nevertheless, now that I'm an old man, I don't see war as the means of bringing peace to the world.

Opinions change over the years don't they?

And we also had a rock star who was conscripted to serve in Viet Nam-which he did in a Cavalry Unit. His career was basically stuffed because of his service.


Yes toyomotor opinions do change, thankfully. People believed what they were told by the government and tried to trust the gov hoping for the greater good. The pursuit of war and the circumstances are not always what we have been told. We have learned not to trust and even "verify" seems out of the realm of possibility with info wars and current poor media standards.


toyomotor, you said Calvary, I said Air Calvary.  I _assume_ you meant Air Calvary, no?!?  I am just curious, who was the rock star?  I mean in the cosmic scheme of things, it is not that important, but I am just curious.


Edited by franciscosan - 28 Jun 2018 at 03:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 03:03
Quote So who went into the Air Cavalry?

Is there some hidden meaning here?

I know that at one stage the 7th Cavalry were Air Cav. but apart from that, I don't understand what he's getting at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2018 at 15:01
Not the 60's but survivors of, loved the Traveling Wilburys.

The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2018 at 14:55

toyomotor, please answer fransicosan's question; "So who went into the Air Calvary?"

A sky pilot would have been a Chaplin in Vietnam. It's also the definition from Webster.


Did You Know?

The designation 'sky pilot' … has only been in use for a few years, say ten…. So wrote George William Foote in the 1893 book Flowers of Freethought. He was right. Our earliest evidence dates the term to 1883. Foote compared the sky pilot to the more familiar pilot of his age: the helmsman whose job is to steer a ship. And he faulted the former, tongue in cheek, for lacking the follow-through of the latter: "The honest salt boards the ship, and takes her out to sea, or brings her into port.… But the sky-pilot does not go with you. Oh dear no! That is no part of hisbargain." "Sky pilot" has never been a very common term, but it's actually a tad more common today than it was when Foote's book was published.


He blesses the boys as they stand in line
The smell of gun grease and the bayonets they shine
He's there to help them all that he can
To make them feel wanted he's a good holy man
Sky pilot.....sky pilot
How high can you fly
You'll never, never, never reach the sky
He smiles at the young soldiers
Tells them its all right
He knows of their fear in the forthcoming fight
Soon there'll be blood and many will die
Mothers and fathers back home they will cry
Sky pilot.....sky pilot
How high can you fly
You'll never, never, never reach the sky
He mumbles a prayer and it ends with a smile
The order is given
They move down the line
But he's still behind and he'll meditate
But it won't stop the bleeding or ease the hate
As the young men move out into the battle zone
He


Edited by Vanuatu - 04 Jul 2018 at 15:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 11:31
Franciscosan wrote [toyomotor, I think that a lot of people love the idealism of the '60s, even though they don't think it is realistic. [/quote]

Yes, I agree.
Quote Eric Burdon and the Animals-"When I was young"-
The rooms were so much colder then
My father was a soldier then
And times were very hard
When I was young
When I was young

I smoked my first cigarette at ten
And for girls, I had a bad yen
And I had quite a ball
When I was young

When I was young, it was more important
Pain more pain
But I laughed a much louder, Yeah
When I was young
When I was young

I met my first love at thirteen
She was brown and I was pretty green
And I learned quite a lot when I was young
When I was young
When I was young

Just about sums it up I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 03:02
Joan Baez helped Bob Dylan become known. While established and as a signed artist she took Dylan with her on tour and kept him around until he eventually has his own following. So some free love and years later Dylan could have helped Joan when she was his opening act in 1965, instead he famously snubbed her by not getting onstage with her. Years and years later Baez said she was caught up in making Dylan a political force.  She regrets the political activism today bc her son has seen some resentment maybe bias for perceived anti American acts. 

Edited by Vanuatu - 24 Jun 2018 at 03:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2018 at 23:59
Listening to an audiobook these days, called something like, 'Detroit, the Tale of Great City,' about c. 1963 Detroit.  They talk about Motown, which of course I am vaguely familiar with, in the sense of never having studied it, but having heard it on the radio, in cafes, and in commercials all my life.  Also, Aretha Franklin, who wasn't part of the Motown label, but was the daughter of Rev. Franklin and was originally from Detroit.  But, I think that Malcolm X came from Detroit, or at least there were black nationalists active there, so not everything was sunny.  Romney the elder was governor of Michigan, and the Ford Mustang came out in 1964(??).  But, they could already tell that demographics of white flight to the suburbs and the loss of the employed in the city was going to undercut the tax base.

So who went into the Air Calvary?

toyomotor, I think that a lot of people love the idealism of the '60s, even though they don't think it is realistic.  The goals of the '60s are noble, but they are also very rare and very hard.  For example, "peace," we act like we know what it means, but when can we look at history and find a time that is truly peaceful? not just the breathing space after the conflict, or the time before the storm?  So, I think that a lot of people love the music of the sixties, but they are also aware that there is a simplicity (and purity) to the music that did not completely translate to everyday life.  Also, there are casualties of the sixties that have little to do with war, and everything to do with not having "guard rails" to keep people on the path.  If 'the man' says heroin is bad, then as an antiauthoritarian, let's do heroin.  But the music, and the diversity of the music is great for the imagination.  I think that with the '60s, American power, and culture was at its zenith, and a lot that was noble came out of that time, some things stayed in that time, and some still lives with us today.



Edited by franciscosan - 19 Jun 2018 at 00:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 16:05
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu
I suppose I'm somewhat of a dichotemy.
Although I like the music, I marched in support of our troops during the Viet Nam War.
Make no mistake-I was, and still am, staunchly supporting our troops who go to war. I like the lyrics of most of the songs because they say just what I think, our troops doing as their country orders them, they joined knowing the likelihood of active service, but, nevertheless, now that I'm an old man, I don't see war as the means of bringing peace to the world.

Opinions change over the years don't they?

And we also had a rock star who was conscripted to serve in Viet Nam-which he did in a Cavalry Unit. His career was basically stuffed because of his service.




Yes toyomotor opinions do change, thankfully. People believed what they were told by the government and tried to trust the gov hoping for the greater good. The pursuit of war and the circumstances are not always what we have been told. We have learned not to trust and even "verify" seems out of the realm of possibility with info wars and current poor media standards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 16:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:25


Edited by Vanuatu - 07 Jul 2018 at 05:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:15


Edited by Vanuatu - 04 Jul 2018 at 15:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:12





Edited by Vanuatu - 07 Jul 2018 at 04:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:04
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

We seem to have wandered off the path. 1960's music wasn't confined to "hippy" music and anti-war protest songs. There was a lot of other popular music out there-rock, country, folk and so on.

How about Chubby Checker, the Animals, the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and the list goes on, Glenn Campbell, Merle Haggard, Ray Charles and Johnny Cash. All had music well up in the charts of the time.



No we haven't wandered off the path. The music and the times are relevant.


Want more videos? You Got it.:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 02:00
We seem to have wandered off the path. 1960's music wasn't confined to "hippy" music and anti-war protest songs. There was a lot of other popular music out there-rock, country, folk and so on.

How about Chubby Checker, the Animals, the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and the list goes on, Glenn Campbell, Merle Haggard, Ray Charles and Johnny Cash. All had music well up in the charts of the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2018 at 15:26
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

Thanks for all the previous posts. I remember Kerry's Winter Soldier speech from April 71, before Congress, pretty well. Kerry was a lieutenant in the Army Reserve when he gave the speech, and was dressed in fatigues and combat boots. This was quite a change from the usual senior military officers, who'd addressed Congress in their dress uniforms. He was also a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, an anti-war group. Listening to the speech, I didn't catch anything negative about veterans. He was criticizing the American government's military actions in Vietnam, and he referred to atrocities that American troops had committed against Vietnamese civilians. But he didn't blame or criticise the troops themselves. He blamed the governmental leadership in Washington D.C. (some of whom he referred to by name). He felt the War was useless and unnecessary.


In detailing the rape and destruction Kerry does nothing to expedite the end of the war, not if you accept McNamara's memoirs and recorded conversations with Nixon. The war ended when Nixon can't find a political upside to continuing the war. Kerry does create even more hostility in the US and some of the exploits of Vietnam Veterans Against the War were used to salt the wounds of POW's as written by John McCain. Jane Fonda bankrolled Kerry's VVAW and turned it into performance art, how did this help civilians in US?

"personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."-John Kerry 1971

Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

 Kerry later became a conventional Democratic senator, but he remained supportive of veterans. I remember what the V.A. medical clinic was like in my homecity in those days. It was a very rigid, authoritarian organization, similar to the military itself. The administration there was more concerned with enforcing their rules and regulations than with providing health-care to veterans. There was an awful lot of redtape. A lot of Vietnam-era veterans just became frustrated and disillusioned with it, and stopped going to it altogether. (Now there were many good employees working there, then and now. I'm not criticizing the rank-and-file employees, who were sincere and dedicated. But the administration there, at that time, wasn't helpful or supportive of veterans). In the Nineties, after the first Iraq War, there was a second wave of combat veterans, and they faced the same problems with the V.A.  as the Vietnam vets did.

Kerry helped to establish and fund an alternative Vets' Centre, away from the regular V.A. Medical Clinic, that veterans with problems could go to, receive some help and counselling, and some basic medical care. It wasn't equipped to be able to provide specialized medical-care, but the counsellors there were supportive of veterans, and tried to convince them to return to the regular V.A. for medical-care, helped as much as they could to get them through the redtape, and kept telling them "not to give up" and "bear with it" when they ran into problems with the V.A. I know that this is just talk rather than anything else, but it really did help out some vets (buth Vietnam and Gulf War vets), and convince them to go back to the V.A. to get some medical care. Kerry himself visited the Centre several times, and spoke with veterans who were there ( I was present myself during one of his visits). These visits weren't publicity opportunities for him. They weren't announced in advance, and weren't always publicized. Kerry drove across the state himself to come, he wasn't chauffered.  This alternative Vets' Centre lasted for about 10 years or so, until it was eventually discontinued. But by that time (about 2007 or so) the regular V.A. had become more welcoming toward veterans, and was trying to cope with things.

Kerry didn't contribute to these improvements by writing legislation.
I find that he co-opted a cause to further his ambitions. I think he acted as a communist when he opposed a UN plan in 1990 to end the war in Cambodia. And POW's were comfortably in Kerry's rear view mirror. After his senate committee determined in 1992 that there were no POW's in Vietnam, when Kerry personally flew to Vietnam with other senators to "look" for POWs (theater?) he was ready say that's a wrap. Kerry goes home and takes credit for getting Vietnam mud on his shoes. It was Soviet intelligence that revealed the existence/locations of hundreds American POW's 1992-93, oddly.



Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

World War II veterans returned home to the prosperity and expanding economy of the Fifties. Vietnam veterans returned home to minimum-wage jobs and layoffs, as have the Gulf War vets). I live in a medium-sized, working-class city that's been in decline ever since the Sixties, and a significant number of late-sixties and early-seventies hippies were themselves Vietnam vets. Most of them never joined the American Legion or the V.F.W. They had ambiguous feelings about their service, a mixture of pride and camaraderie, but also feelings of guilt over some of the things they'd seen and done over there. War maybe seems glorious and honorable at times, but it's also brutal and ruthless. There's no easy answers. I think that this was the message that Kerry was trying to convey in the Winter Soldier speech.

My own feelings are that Kerry, after he entered the Senate, ought to have been more concerned with the financial problems that his constituents were undergoing (minimum-wage jobs, layoffs, no health-insurance or access to healthcare,  no way to buy a house or support a family,etc.). But his first love was always foreign-policy and diplomacy, and that's what he focused on.

I also like the Sixties protest songs that have been mentioned in this thread. There was also during this time one song "Ballad of the Green Berets" that was patriotic rather than antiwar. But even that song more supported the Green Berets themselves rather than the government.

It's true that after the Vietnam War ended, the hippies soon faded away, except for maybe a few oldtimers who are still around in their sixties and seventies. But the protest songs of the Sixties morphed into Bruce Springsteen's songs of the Seventies and Eighties, which chronicled the passing away of the American Dream, and were just as cynical about the government as the protest songs were.





Couldn't AGREE MORE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2018 at 17:34
If I remember rightly, Bruce Springsteen's Born To Run came out in the mid-seventies. Glen Campbell's Galveston wasn't a protest song, but it reflected the sixties feelings of apprehension about the war.
As well as political awareness on the part of young people, there was also the age 18 draft for young men during the Vietnam War, which I think contributed to the opposition to the war.

I actually have mixed feelings about the elimination of the draft. It's understandable that young Americans were opposed to being drafted into the military, and sent to fight in an overseas war in Southeast Asia that they felt was unnecessary. Moreover, the draft was administered unfairly, and affluent young men got all sorts of deferments for all sorts of reasons, while the poor were automatically drafted. I myself like the idea of a citizen military better than the professional military that we now have. I like the idea of the military originating in the citizenry, rather than composing a seperate professional military force. But the present professional military is better trained. I'd actually like to see 2 years of in-country stateside military training made compulsory again for all citizens upon reaching age 21, or perhaps some sort of alternate national service for those who wished it. But only those professional troops who chose to remain in the service would be sent for duty overseas. 


Edited by Windemere - 06 Jun 2018 at 17:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2018 at 02:09
The hopes and fears of a generation were reflected in their music, which in the main was anti-war, peace and love. Not the other way around.

For perhaps the first time in generations, young people became more politically aware and didn't like what they saw. They didn't show their dislike in violence, but in peaceful protest.

But don't forget, the 1960's wasn't the period of the hippy subculture alone. Charlie Pride, Glen Campbell, Johnny Cash and Roy Orbison, Bruce Springsteen,for example, were also up their with their music.
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 21:26
I suggest watching the movie, "Best Year of Our Lives," for an impression of WWII veterans coming home,  won the Academy Award for 1946.  Point is, it wasn't all hunky dory coming home in WWII.  I am not sure how Korea was.  

But I really enjoy the Woodstock movie, which is very authentic '60s.  Even the mistakes are authentic.  In trying to recreate the time, there is always something about the recreation that is not authentic.  The imitation itself is not perfect, if for no other reason, it is an imitation.  One can digitally mix and remaster a recording, but even then, especially then it would not be authentic, but a simulacra.  A simulation is an imitation of something that exists.  An simulacra is an imitation of something that does not exist.  Remaster it, and take out the mistakes, the feedback, the banter, and the result would be less, not more of the essence of such a performance.

Scorcesei worked on the Woodstock movie.  In watching it, I feel really sorry for the people of Woodstock, they did not deserve the hordes of hippies descending on their town.  Woodstock was an accident waiting to happen, an ultimately it did not happen, then, it happened later at Altamont.  (Gimme Shelter).   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 22:12
Thanks for all the previous posts. I remember Kerry's Winter Soldier speech from April 71, before Congress, pretty well. Kerry was a lieutenant in the Army Reserve when he gave the speech, and was dressed in fatigues and combat boots. This was quite a change from the usual senior military officers, who'd addressed Congress in their dress uniforms. He was also a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, an anti-war group. Listening to the speech, I didn't catch anything negative about veterans. He was criticizing the American government's military actions in Vietnam, and he referred to atrocities that American troops had committed against Vietnamese civilians. But he didn't blame or criticise the troops themselves. He blamed the governmental leadership in Washington D.C. (some of whom he referred to by name). He felt the War was useless and unnecessary.

 Kerry later became a conventional Democratic senator, but he remained supportive of veterans. I remember what the V.A. medical clinic was like in my homecity in those days. It was a very rigid, authoritarian organization, similar to the military itself. The administration there was more concerned with enforcing their rules and regulations than with providing health-care to veterans. There was an awful lot of redtape. A lot of Vietnam-era veterans just became frustrated and disillusioned with it, and stopped going to it altogether. (Now there were many good employees working there, then and now. I'm not criticizing the rank-and-file employees, who were sincere and dedicated. But the administration there, at that time, wasn't helpful or supportive of veterans). In the Nineties, after the first Iraq War, there was a second wave of combat veterans, and they faced the same problems with the V.A.  as the Vietnam vets did.

Kerry helped to establish and fund an alternative Vets' Centre, away from the regular V.A. Medical Clinic, that veterans with problems could go to, receive some help and counselling, and some basic medical care. It wasn't equipped to be able to provide specialized medical-care, but the counsellors there were supportive of veterans, and tried to convince them to return to the regular V.A. for medical-care, helped as much as they could to get them through the redtape, and kept telling them "not to give up" and "bear with it" when they ran into problems with the V.A. I know that this is just talk rather than anything else, but it really did help out some vets (buth Vietnam and Gulf War vets), and convince them to go back to the V.A. to get some medical care. Kerry himself visited the Centre several times, and spoke with veterans who were there ( I was present myself during one of his visits). These visits weren't publicity opportunities for him. They weren't announced in advance, and weren't always publicized. Kerry drove across the state himself to come, he wasn't chauffered.  This alternative Vets' Centre lasted for about 10 years or so, until it was eventually discontinued. But by that time (about 2007 or so) the regular V.A. had become more welcoming toward veterans, and was trying to cope with things.

World War II veterans returned home to the prosperity and expanding economy of the Fifties. Vietnam veterans returned home to minimum-wage jobs and layoffs, as have the Gulf War vets). I live in a medium-sized, working-class city that's been in decline ever since the Sixties, and a significant number of late-sixties and early-seventies hippies were themselves Vietnam vets. Most of them never joined the American Legion or the V.F.W. They had ambiguous feelings about their service, a mixture of pride and camaraderie, but also feelings of guilt over some of the things they'd seen and done over there. War maybe seems glorious and honorable at times, but it's also brutal and ruthless. There's no easy answers. I think that this was the message that Kerry was trying to convey in the Winter Soldier speech.

My own feelings are that Kerry, after he entered the Senate, ought to have been more concerned with the financial problems that his constituents were undergoing (minimum-wage jobs, layoffs, no health-insurance or access to healthcare,  no way to buy a house or support a family,etc.). But his first love was always foreign-policy and diplomacy, and that's what he focused on.

I also like the Sixties protest songs that have been mentioned in this thread. There was also during this time one song "Ballad of the Green Berets" that was patriotic rather than antiwar. But even that song more supported the Green Berets themselves rather than the government.

It's true that after the Vietnam War ended, the hippies soon faded away, except for maybe a few oldtimers who are still around in their sixties and seventies. But the protest songs of the Sixties morphed into Bruce Springsteen's songs of the Seventies and Eighties, which chronicled the passing away of the American Dream, and were just as cynical about the government as the protest songs were.


Edited by Windemere - 04 Jun 2018 at 01:04
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"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 01:27
Wasn't it John Kerry who went to Ortega's Nicaragua in the 1980s?  Or am I thinking about someone else?  If it was him, he tried to conduct foreign policy as a mere congressman.  The Sandinistas welcomed him, but they knew he was useless in that regard, and Reagan was not going to be affected by his attempt.  I had a friend who studied international relations and he thought that Kerry had weighed in on every international issue for the last 20 years (30 now) and had never been right about them.

My mistake, it was Biden who has weighed in on every international issue, and never been right, according to a friend.

There is footage of Berkeley with the camera going around in the crowd, and people singing, "We Shall Overcome."  Think of the tune, now think of it as 'metamorphosing' into "Yellow Submarine."  That is what happened on the footage, no tricks, just one song flowing into the other.  Seriousness, earnestness, great moral intentions into silliness, triviality.  To me that is what seems to have happened in the '60s.


Edited by franciscosan - 05 Jun 2018 at 23:53
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