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Co-evolution humans/dogs

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    Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 00:27
There was also a story 2016 summer in NYC. A Catholic priest actually witnessed and the attack tried to help the victim.
These dogs lived in the neighborhood near Catholic church. The victim was a man who had been painting a building to the side of the church. These two dogs attacked him & ate some of his flesh. You can see his the man's intestines being pulled out.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 19:55
Last night on "Nature," they had a show on cats, and one thing they talked about was how dogs developed a keen sense of smell and a long nose.  What this did, however, was limit their biting power.  Whereas cats kept a short nose and were/are more effective killing machines.  It was that killing (of mice) by domestic cats that was prized by humans over the centuries, however, their killing of small animals has become disliked and may be bred out of them by humans, seeking them only as companions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 22:07
Dogs have somewhat of a reputation for guarding the body, but not eating it.  Cats seem to believe that good meat should not go to waste.  But of course, a house cat probably could not kill a human, no matter what the circumstances.

I am sure the dogs were not eating the rib cage, rather were trying to get at the tasty mortals underneath and around the rib cage.  Like they say, the way to a man's heart (or woman's in this case), is through her stomach, and then up!

If one did not laugh at the human condition, LOL  one would cry. Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 14:39
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There are coyote-wolf hybrids in some of the Mid Western states, (Coywolf(?).  They are smaller than a full size wolf, and are not afraid of man, but like a lot of coyotes do, live on the fringes of cities.

Of course, in another thread we talked about the Russian silver fox, and the attempt to domesticate them for their pelts.  The domestication was successful, the foxes were tamed, but something about the domestication genetically made it so their pelts were no longer silver (and desirable), but like a dogs, a motley mix of colors.  Like how some breeds have different colors, even a patchwork of them.  Trained foxes are available for purchase, although some skeptics say that one cannot fully domesticate (and trust) a wild animal.
I would agree that all dogs retain some natural instincts and only dependence on humans could allow for breeding tameness and cooperative behavior.
Last week a very vocal pro-pittbull owner was killed and partially eaten by her two pit bulls. Good article, loony lefty Twitter journalists trying to lie about circumstances naturally.

Rumors swirled around the death of Bethany Lynn Stephens, a young woman from rural Virginia who, authorities said, was mauled to death by her dogs while out on a walk last week.

Many suspected that someone else killed her and doubted that the dogs were responsible. Goochland County Sheriff Jim Agnew said the misinformation, particularly on social media, was widespread and has complicated the investigation. So he decided to disclose one gruesome detail that he had been reluctant to divulge out of concern for Stephens’s family — in hopes of reassuring the public that there isn’t a killer on the loose.

Shortly after officers found Stephens’s body, guarded by her two dogs, they began talking about how to catch the animals. When they turned back around, they saw that the dogs had walked over to the body.

“I observed, as well as four other deputy sheriffs observed,” Agnew said, then paused before continuing, “the dogs eating the rib cage on the body.”

A friend of Stephens was later able to capture the dogs, the sheriff said.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 02:41
There are coyote-wolf hybrids in some of the Mid Western states, (Coywolf(?).  They are smaller than a full size wolf, and are not afraid of man, but like a lot of coyotes do, live on the fringes of cities.

Of course, in another thread we talked about the Russian silver fox, and the attempt to domesticate them for their pelts.  The domestication was successful, the foxes were tamed, but something about the domestication genetically made it so their pelts were no longer silver (and desirable), but like a dogs, a motley mix of colors.  Like how some breeds have different colors, even a patchwork of them.  Trained foxes are available for purchase, although some skeptics say that one cannot fully domesticate (and trust) a wild animal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 16:24
Wolves have adapted to us and the ocean along with cows, camels and other Ungulates. 
And they may be doing it again.
In British Columbia two groups of wolves have been living side by side without much genetic mixing. The wolves on the plains eat what you would expect and the wolves on the rocky coast, eat seafood.

The island wolves look different and blend into the red clay shorelines. They have extra skin between their toes that look like webbing and the head has a rounded Pinniped or seal like appearance. There is a common ancestor between seals/ killer whales/ walrus and wolves. Each of those marine mammals have great genetic distinction with each other.
They are more closely related to dogs, cats and weasels than they are related to whales, matinees and dolphins.
 

In 2009 genetic research into marine mammals including those who descend from Ungulates and Tetrapods show that each group came through transformation to marine life by unique genetic routes. Even though the genes for fins and flippers looked the same (morpho genetic) they had different chemistry.

The coastal wolves eat salmon, lots of parasites. Since bears hibernate they kill the tape worms they might ingest with starvation before tape worms kill the bear. A wolf would be dead from eating salmon flesh however these wolves are adapting. Bears usually only eat the skin and heads of the fish and so they avoid ingesting the parasite. Wolves do the same. Here is a look at them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2017 at 21:57
I was told by another friend that they put up coyote cutouts at other nativity scenes around town to keep (wild) animals away from them, and here I thought it was some kind of anarchical alt left whimsical impulse.

So your dog is American, and mine is Australian.....

Or is it that humans have developed better characteristics in dogs?  And some the worse characteristics too.  (I think of inbreeding, and endemic problems for certain breeds).

They say that if you want love in DC, get a dog (or maybe a trophy wife??).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2017 at 23:40
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Neat!

My mother and I took the dog (Australian Silky Terrier) on a walk to the local Catholic church/school parking lot, in front of it was a manager, and joining the three wisemen, Joseph and a sheep, etc, were three photo cutouts of coyote (they're God's creatures too, so why not).  I am sure some prankster put them out.  But anyways, I was surprised when the dog reacted to the two dimensional cutout of the coyotes.  growling and put off by the cutouts.  I always thought dogs didn't pay attention to two-dimensional stuff, and tv, so forth.

I have a Terrier/American Pit Bull cross. She watches TV most of the night, and if she sees a strange animal, runs up to the TV, barking and making a fuss.

Just goes to show that science isn't always up to date on some matters.

But isn't it strange than, in many respects, dogs have developed more of the better characteristics than some humans?




Edited by toyomotor - 12 Dec 2017 at 23:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 04:08
Neat!

My mother and I took the dog (Australian Silky Terrier) on a walk to the local Catholic church/school parking lot, in front of it was a manager, and joining the three wisemen, Joseph and a sheep, etc, were three photo cutouts of coyote (they're God's creatures too, so why not).  I am sure some prankster put them out.  But anyways, I was surprised when the dog reacted to the two dimensional cutout of the coyotes.  growling and put off by the cutouts.  I always thought dogs didn't pay attention to two-dimensional stuff, and tv, so forth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2017 at 00:47

Earliest Known Images of Dogs Reveal Origins of Their Bond With Humans

“We both got really excited when we realized we might have the oldest depiction of leashes, and that images may give us a lot of information on dog domestication and the use of dogs in complex dog-assisted hunting strategies.”
The dogs depicted appear similar to the modern day Canaan dog. http://www.inverse.com/article/38541-oldest-images-dogs-archeology
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2017 at 02:17

This newly-published genomic map of dog breeds is the most expansive yet published. To construct it, the researchers attended dog shows and contacted dog breeders over a period of 20 years to obtain samples of blood or mouth scrapings. The collected samples were genotyped from 938 dogs representing 127 breeds, as well as nine wild canids. They combined those data with genotypes retrieved from publicly available sources, and merged them into a single dataset comprising 1,346 dogs from 161 breeds developed on North America, Europe, Africa, and Asia.

Analyses of this dataset reveals 23 clades, or clusters, of dog breeds (Figures 1 & 2).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2017 at 22:45
Like food. or for that matter, sacrifice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2017 at 00:13
Like everything in the world, occasional and unexplained genetic mutations have led to variation in basic genomes to create a different form of being, plant or animal.

I was amazed to read recently that all blue eyed people in the world share one ancient genetic ancestor. I daresay that other scientists will discuss and expand on it as time goes by.

So, would the same thing apply to the dog/human relationship over time. Was their mutual dependability and companionship based purely on domestic evoloution or did DNA mutation occur which "drove" the closer relationship?

Another point being that some societies have a different relationship with their dogs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 16:23
Another somewhat interesting fact is that at some point after wolves had been domesticated and eventually became domestic dogs, a black genetic mutation developed in the dogs. Later, through interbreeding between domesticated (black) dogs and wolves, probably in prehistoric or early historic times, the black gene was passed on into the wolf species. And now black wolves are common in North America, and also found, to a lesser extent, in Europe and Asia. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only instance of a gene originating in a domesticated species that has been passed on back into a wild species.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2017 at 03:02
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

It was just a story on BBC radio last week, they mentioned the results, not the tests.

BUT, it was not wolf/human or dog/human cooperation, it was wolf/wolf cooperation, dog/dog cooperation, elephant/elephant cooperation.

I think you may have misunderstood what I (and they) were saying, my fault.  But what is interesting, again is wolf/wolf team was more cooperative than a dog/dog team.

Well they are pack animals. Not like Trump pfffft
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2017 at 02:48
It was just a story on BBC radio last week, they mentioned the results, not the tests.

BUT, it was not wolf/human or dog/human cooperation, it was wolf/wolf cooperation, dog/dog cooperation, elephant/elephant cooperation.

I think you may have misunderstood what I (and they) were saying, my fault.  But what is interesting, again is wolf/wolf team was more cooperative than a dog/dog team.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2017 at 02:22
Are wolves learning a benefit from being around humans? Inevitably assuming a role that their ancestors discovered as an aid for survival. Wolves in Italy are making a comeback after near extinction. If they hid from humans how would they even begin a co reliant relationship?

Dog doesn't doubt he'll be fed no matter what he chooses.:)

 Do you remember any of the tests?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2017 at 02:08
Last week on BBC radio, there was a story of an experiment which required animals to cooperate in order to do a task (get a reward), wolves scored better than dogs.  Elephants did quite well also.

Much as I love dogs, I think domestication makes them a little more stupid than their wild half-cousins.  But, maybe as far as intelligence is concerned, they are reliant and not necessarily separate from humans in their intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 04:36
Dingoes are a missing link too, like the China & India dogs. They are less likely to have the gene that allows digestion of starch. So they split off genetcally before true domestication maybe out of one place in Asia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2017 at 07:05
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

DNA analysis shows that farming and dogs ability to digest starch dates to Europe, 6000 ybp & Asia 7000 ybp. The gene -AMY2b- developed in humans first. A number of breeds split with dogs 15,000 ago.

Also found that street dogs in China and India have unique missing link genetic markers. That's a bottleneck right there.



The tan coloured dog in the middle resembles a dingo in some respects.

I wonder if the dogs you mention and dingos could share that gene?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2017 at 05:04
DNA analysis shows that farming and dogs ability to digest starch dates to Europe, 6000 ybp & Asia 7000 ybp. The gene -AMY2b- developed in humans first. A number of breeds split with dogs 15,000 ago.

Also found that street dogs in China and India have unique missing link genetic markers. That's a bottleneck right there.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 01:44
Capitalism is a bad motive for pet breeding.
Even if you don't have puppy mills, breeders probably don't have much motive to check out the breeding history of their animals.  I have posted it in another thread, but I'll mention it here.  There are the Monks of New Skete in New York who breed and train German Shepherds.  They will train other dogs too and have books and videos for it.  They have the breeding history of the dogs they have, and are careful about pairing them up.  They are expensive, but if you don't want, say, hip problems for your German Shepherd, and want a well trained, well tempered dog, you probably can't do any better than them.  They have a lot of demand.

Monasteries have to be self-sufficient and so they develop craft industries, brewing beer, painting icons, making cheesecake (the monks of New Skete again, looks delicious), and breeding and training dogs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 06:03
Quote Since the dogs went from Wales to London dozens of times a month they knew their way very well. Farmers would sell the Corgis in London and soon enough the little guys came right back home.

Love it.LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 01:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Franciscosan

Quote But enough silliness, I believe there are two basic types of dogs??

No, there's at least one other. Stupid dogs. My Jack Russel/Staffordshire terrier cross doesn't point, but her hearing is phenemonal. She hears something that we can't and then starts barking at it-at all hours of the day and night.

Many, if not all of current day dogs have been deliberately bred to what they are today, causing some life long abnormailities and illness.

Why can't we leave well enough alone?

Yea we should leave them alone. 
Jack Russel is rat killer, I bet he can do some serious Digging. Lots of people in UK use the dogs over pesticides. The rats are mostly immune and mistakenly lots of other animals die from the rat poison. Now that is something to behold, the Terriers are very efficient killers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 01:45
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So that is why there are no tall Welsh Corgies?  Are you sure that is not a tall tale??  (or a short tail as the case may be). Big smile

There was a one page article about bloodhounds in National Geographic once, amongst other things it said that bloodhounds have problems telling (the scent of) identical twins apart, in other words their schnozes can detect individuals on the genetic level (but thus have a difficulty with identical twins).

It is interesting how much in the last 20 years companion dogs have proliferated.  Dogs that can smell when their "guardians" diabetes is acting up, or dogs for veterans with PTSD, etc.  Far beyond just seeing eye dogs.

I think health centers at colleges using cuddly dogs to calm down and help distressed students out is perfectly fine.  I think getting that upset about an election is pretty bogus, but the use of dogs (or cats) is cutting edge.  The dogs are at least good for something, which I am not sure the counsellors are.
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In 1675 John Olgilby created the first road map of Britain. Terry Jones (from Monty Python) did a good film series on the political motives and retraced the ancient routes in Ogilby's Atlas.

At one point Jones is talking with a welsh farmer and Jones notices the Corgi does not move an inch as the cows great pendulum leg swings out just barely missing the little dog. The farmer explains to Jones that the Corgi was bred for that and they have one other talent.

Jones gives the farmer a franciscosan look.Geek

Since the dogs went from Wales to London dozens of times a month they knew their way very well. Farmers would sell the Corgis in London and soon enough the little guys came right back home. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 00:45
Franciscosan

Quote But enough silliness, I believe there are two basic types of dogs??

No, there's at least one other. Stupid dogs. My Jack Russel/Staffordshire terrier cross doesn't point, but her hearing is phenemonal. She hears something that we can't and then starts barking at it-at all hours of the day and night.

Many, if not all of current day dogs have been deliberately bred to what they are today, causing some life long abnormailities and illness.

Why can't we leave well enough alone?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 22:56
So that is why there are no tall Welsh Corgies?  Are you sure that is not a tall tale??  (or a short tail as the case may be). Big smile

There was a one page article about bloodhounds in National Geographic once, amongst other things it said that bloodhounds have problems telling (the scent of) identical twins apart, in other words their schnozes can detect individuals on the genetic level (but thus have a difficulty with identical twins).

It is interesting how much in the last 20 years companion dogs have proliferated.  Dogs that can smell when their "guardians" diabetes is acting up, or dogs for veterans with PTSD, etc.  Far beyond just seeing eye dogs.

I think health centers at colleges using cuddly dogs to calm down and help distressed students out is perfectly fine.  I think getting that upset about an election is pretty bogus, but the use of dogs (or cats) is cutting edge.  The dogs are at least good for something, which I am not sure the counsellors are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 22:32
Yea I see the Chewy ads. Wow Big Bro is watching eh?

I think hounds have superior sense of smell over other breeds and certainly all breeding was and is specialized.

Interesting bit about the Welsh Corgi. It seems they were bred as cattle driving dogs. Their job is to nip at the ankles of the cattle if they stop moving along. When nipped the cows swing out -stiff-legged to kick the dog but since Corgi legs are so short the angle allows the Corgi to remain un- kicked. The dogs don't move and the big 'ol cow hoof just clears the dogs by millimeters! lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 21:07
How do you like the ads of the dogs in Halloween costumes, (chewy.com), I am not sure they come up for non-Americans.  I like the pope pup, although I imagine that some might choose to be offended by it.  I can't imagine many dogs sitting still to wear such things.

But enough silliness, I believe there are two basic types of dogs??  Scent dogs (with blood hounds being the king), and sight dogs (such as pointers??).  Does this division extend to all dogs?  It would seem like it would show that dogs were selectively chosen to reinforce these characteristics.  I am not sure what a pug is, definitely not a scent dog, but I think their eyesight is relatively poor also.

I have heard that one difference between a wolf and a dog is that if you point at something, the dog will look where you point, whereas the wolf will pay attention to your finger.  I imagine that the first part is not universally true, but still it makes for an interesting distinction which probably originated in domestication.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 07:44
Vanuatu
Quote Did these dogs get here via the great human migrations?

My guess is that they did. I would postulate that they were domesticated, or at least semi domesticated by the time they reached Australia, bearing mind that it wasn't an overnight trip.

I suspect that they would have cottoned on to the idea that humans were an easy source of food, and followed them on the great journey.

Incidentally, years ago when I was in Thailand, I saw a man who, to me, was phenotypically Aboriginal, and he had with him a dog that was, IMO, identical to a dingo. Obviously they weren't Australian, but I've often wondered if their original ancestors stayed behind in Asia to become the indigenous tribesmen, and dogs,  of today.



It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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