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Time, linear, or cyclical?

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    Posted: 2 hours 23 minutes ago at 07:13
Yes, but Botticelli painted Venus on a half shell, the (Italian) Renaissance was a time of re-discovery of the Greek tradition, from Constantinople, although I think there also was a search started in the monasteries for Latin (pagan) manuscripts.  What is old becomes new again.

I think that the beautiful was done for patronage, not (necessarily) for God.  While a lot of people look at the Middle Ages and think that the Church ruled, I think that it was control of the aristocracy both inside and outside of the Church.  Holy men don't have mistresses, but ah, yes, Popes are aristocrats, and as aristocrats they do.  
Whether one's model of time is linear or cyclical, it is important to understand on a fundamental level, how another time is different, and how it is the same to our era.
For example, Calvin Coolidge's son did not wear socks when playing tennis, the shoes rubbed his feet and he got a sore, that sore became infected, and he died.  No matter how rich or powerful a family was in that era, if you got an infection, there was little they could do for you in those pre-antibiotic days.  That is one way how it was different than today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 04:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The French Philosopher, Pierre Hadot, says that the _Timaeus_ is work in the Orphic spirit, versus modern science which is Promethean, interrogation of nature kind of thing.  Think of how Orpheus charmed people, animals, even the rocks and trees, whereas Prometheus stole fire from the gods and also stole the crafts, and gave them to man (and got punished for that, but eventually got out of punishment).  Someday, I will read the Timaeus (again) and maybe that time I could make heads and tails of it!

Timaeus is also said to be Pythagorean.  But, that is like saying, "one thing (we don't understand) is like another thing (we don't understand)".  I think understanding the _Timaeus_, or the _Parmenides_ or the Philebus_, are always in modernity, partial understandings.

One thing the Pythagoreans talked about was Kairios (or Kairos?), the notion of the right time, timeliness, seasonality.  For example, the ninja turtles, (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael and Donatello) are torwards the beginning of the renaissance.  They had immense talents, but they were also in the right place and the right time, to become the household names they are today.  There are "lesser" renaissance artists who were later, and were elsewhere, where they couldn't get the full breeze in their sails so to speak.  They might of technically been artists as good as the giants, or even better, but they were planted in the shade and couldn't get as much sunshine as the others.

Is the renaissance a linear time phenomenon, or a circular time phenomenon?  Or little bit of A, little bit of 2?  
Looking at the masterworks and the culmination of hundreds of years of fine tuning technique, paints and balance artists in Europe find the gestalt they believe would please God. The artists needs his own recognition but it comes only by way of glory to God in the Highest. 

Always the artists are going back to Creation, the Great Fall and epic scenes from the Bible. Even portraits of everyday people, especially self portraits imbue a Godliness in many instances, even in Hieronymus Bosch! (Brilliant Lunatic). 

So the past is being pulled out of the text and made immortal first for God then for beauty. If the Church did not dominant the lives of wealthy people during the Renaissance, suppose oil production was an actuality- then the art would have glorified the black gold. IMHO. 
Little bit of A, little bit of 2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 06:32
The French Philosopher, Pierre Hadot, says that the _Timaeus_ is work in the Orphic spirit, versus modern science which is Promethean, interrogation of nature kind of thing.  Think of how Orpheus charmed people, animals, even the rocks and trees, whereas Prometheus stole fire from the gods and also stole the crafts, and gave them to man (and got punished for that, but eventually got out of punishment).  Someday, I will read the Timaeus (again) and maybe that time I could make heads and tails of it!

Timaeus is also said to be Pythagorean.  But, that is like saying, "one thing (we don't understand) is like another thing (we don't understand)".  I think understanding the _Timaeus_, or the _Parmenides_ or the Philebus_, are always in modernity, partial understandings.

One thing the Pythagoreans talked about was Kairios (or Kairos?), the notion of the right time, timeliness, seasonality.  For example, the ninja turtles, (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael and Donatello) are torwards the beginning of the renaissance.  They had immense talents, but they were also in the right place and the right time, to become the household names they are today.  There are "lesser" renaissance artists who were later, and were elsewhere, where they couldn't get the full breeze in their sails so to speak.  They might of technically been artists as good as the giants, or even better, but they were planted in the shade and couldn't get as much sunshine as the others.

Is the renaissance a linear time phenomenon, or a circular time phenomenon?  Or little bit of A, little bit of 2?  


Edited by franciscosan - 16 Jun 2019 at 07:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 02:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote
Quote “The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti

Especiallly when five countries have a power of veto.

Back to Time, regardless of whether it's linear, circular or cylindrical, how do you explain deja vu?
Right On!

Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively. 

Simultaneity is existence of God or (All That Is) without creation.  Changing states or oscillation provides a perception of linear progression. There is a theory that mostly agrees with relativity but is based on Absolute Simultaneity 

Plato in Timaeus "time and heaven [the world] came into being together that, having been created Simultaeneously [hama], if ever there was to be a dissolution to them, they may be dissolved Simultaneously [hama]. Hama being used here in the temporal sense, not in its etymological use "together."


Edited by Vanuatu - 16 Jun 2019 at 02:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 01:51
Time is a structure that can't be escaped in material reality but it happens in dreams. I have vivid memories of three dreams that I had in childhood, they only happen in my recollection and I am not afraid of them anymore. 

Yet I can remember with clarity and detail as if they happened when I was awake.
Those memories seem as important as a Christmas morning that happens in 1975 in material reality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 01:28
How do you want to explain deja vu?

I think it is a momentary lapse in attention, that when you come back to attention, you feel like you have been there before, because you have, just a second ago you were staring out into space, [attention lapse], and now again you are staring out into space (so to speak).

But sometimes there is the feeling that I _dreamed_ this moment before, and that it was terrifying in the dream (anxiety-filled), but when I get to it, it is fine.  Like dreaming of a test, and being immensely unprepared for the test, but when you actually get to (a) moment like that, being reasonably prepared, not because of the dream, but because you are.  Public speaking could be the same thing, dreamt, and then when you get to an actual case, no big deal.  (or big deal, but no problem).

I do believe that dreams _can_be_ prophetic.  I think deja vu is an attention phenomena, not (necessarily) a time phenomena, but you (or others) can explain it as such if you want.

veto envy.


Edited by franciscosan - 15 Jun 2019 at 01:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 20:02
Vanuatu wrote
Quote “The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti

Especiallly when five countries have a power of veto.

Back to Time, regardless of whether it's linear, circular or cylindrical, how do you explain deja vu?


Edited by toyomotor - 14 Jun 2019 at 20:06
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 07:59
I was disappointed that the show Madame Secretary seemed to kind of drizzle out.  Talk about alternate reality it seems like during Republican administration, television has to concoct a different political reality.  You had the successful show, West Wing, during the George W Bush administration.  Then you had Madame Secretary.

A noun is a person, place, thing or Idea.  So time, the present, past, future definitely exist, if only as an idea, or family of ideas.  Now one can ask whether time has any meaning outside of the structure of consciousness, perhaps not.  But if you look at Immanuel Kant, time is part of the structure of consciousness, and for Kant a necessary part of the structure of consciousness.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 22:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I've noticed over the years that scientists, releasing supposedly new information/explanations very often use terms like "probably", "suggestive of" and so on.

Time is one thing that I don't know can be proven, unless you've been here before.

Personally, I'm a sceptic.(Not septic LOL)
Well, we don't want to sound like the American democrats do wee?Wink
We can dream in the Alternative section.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 18:58
I've noticed over the years that scientists, releasing supposedly new information/explanations very often use terms like "probably", "suggestive of" and so on.

Time is one thing that I don't know can be proven, unless you've been here before.

Personally, I'm a sceptic.(Not septic LOL)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 11:50
If time and space are required to give us a "view" of our lives in an ordered way then without T/S does past, present,future exist all at once?
The past can be found in our memory we can think about the furure and all three can be in the same room together. In our own minds all three do exist simultaneously. When all three states are on the same page, it probably is a sign of high function thinking. What do we fret over after all? Only what has happened and what might happen. 
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 21:29
Quote How is light distorted by gravity? Gravity should not have an effect on light bc it supposedly has no mass
Light is affected by gravity. It's one of the phenomena used to detect distant bodies and so on. In theory, you could bend light around you and become invisible (a staple of sci-fi, it's how the Star Trek cloaking device works). Light is also affected by translucency and density, and also by wave interference.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 15:33
imagine the "moment".  Are moments determined, or is there a bit of wiggle room for them?  Sometimes if (a particular) x happens, then (a particular) y happens.  Apparently necessarily.  But, it seems to me that a lot of moments are just ("indeterminate") noise, creating echoes of noise.  Maybe, when a living being is firing on all cylinders, something (in the mental realm) leads to a freedom called... excellence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2019 at 22:26
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

energy is mass, mass is energy, that is the point of Albert Einstein's equation.  
Only under some circumstances such as when light particles are weak , gravity creates the shortest path and light follows the path bc Newton never met Einstien :) 

The Multiverse Theory in a Galactic Body! Now that's sexy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2019 at 15:16
energy is mass, mass is energy, that is the point of Albert Einstein's equation.  A photon is a light particle and has mass.  But, yes physics is an imperfect explanation, and imo will never be conclusive.  Our view of the universe is limited, although knowledge wise, we tend to think we know everything but the final ("inconsequential") details.  For example, the brain is just a computing machine, and if we get a computing machine with enough power, it will achieve consciousness.  Really, it is just around the corner.Party

One way you can have time travel is if the universe repeats itself, and you go from universe1 at time T,
to universe2 at time T minus X.  It would be as if you went back in time X amount.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2019 at 13:37
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Sounds like you are saying that the event horizon prevents light-cones from "working" a-la time travel.  I am not sure that means that light-cones don't work otherwise.  

You were talking about physics being reliable in a sense throughout the universe. You use the light cone as an example of distortion. How is light distorted by gravity? Gravity should not have an effect on light bc it supposedly has no mass. So how does it get pulled into the Event Horizon? 
The light never actually gets past the event horizon and nothing in the event horizon would be seen back where it came from, it's an edge effect on existence.
I'm simply saying that physics are an imperfect explanation for the universe and time /space. 

There are perfectly sound explanations for worshiping a WW2 GI if you are a native of Tanna, Vanuatu -John Frum bringer of Spam.
We have another explanation for John from America!



Edited by Vanuatu - 05 Jun 2019 at 15:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2019 at 13:37
Sounds like you are saying that the event horizon prevents light-cones from "working" a-la time travel.  I am not sure that means that light-cones don't work otherwise.  

I like looking at the moon through the branches of a tree on a starry night.  Four different times in one vision.

We move backwards through time, familiar with the past, looking at the future only as if through a backwards mirror.  Science fiction is notorious for getting the future wrong.  Friedrich Hayek talked about how in order to anticipate the future we would have to have future knowledge, the knowledge that goes with that time.  But 'then' again that would mean that it would not be then but now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2019 at 01:18
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

About free will and determinism, personally, I 'believe' in free will, but we are not in an epistemic (knowledge) position to absolutely know whether it is free will or determinism.

It could be that we have free will to believe in free will.
It could be that we have free will to believe we're determined.

It could be that we are determined to believe in free will.
It could be that we are determined to believe that we're determined.

If things stayed the same, would we have a concept of time? isn't time most familiar to us through the passing of the days, the passing of the seasons?  Through our passing breath?
Light cones and time travel are food for thought, they are not particularly serious food for thought.
Light cones won't get through a black hole's gravity it prevents light escaping. Metaphoric "light" traversing the edge into a reassembled Bang? Finding black holes are like finding exoplanets, they are detectable when they effect stars and bodies around them by stretching their orbital path. At the cosmic level anyway, free will isn't happening.  
The Rosicrucian's beliefs (of whom Francis Bacon can be counted) and some Native American tribes explained the history of the earth as changing states - air from water/ liquid to solid, a multitude of changing states, ether, clay, vegetable, finally to unconscious animal who would have lived forever were it not for changing lanes.
The Old Ones to Native Americans are the rocks, sometimes mountains in the stories. Death was discovered rather than feared and the dream and sleep state were reversed. Dreaming was the time to explore, eating was not required and death did not occur. When awake in the material world they rested and didn't interact. Their conscious minds were shut off in the material world.
At some point it Changed -wake-sleepers-the ether- stay awake and interact with the material world of food and and flesh, they forego paradise for knowledge, the tones of the earth and the beauty (what is it about art & beauty?)of the seasons are irresistible.
Another Great Fall story but with some science applied regarding what kind of change would make us mortal.  
Was it the beginning of time? Hard Wired in the collective unconscious of all people, all subject to fear and death is the unshakable memory or alternate reality of the dreams we have. 
Quote Of course, there is the stoic free-will of the dog tied to the cart, either the dog can go happily along the cart, or he can be dragged along. Either way, he's going, but he can either freely go along, or reluctantly go along.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2019 at 04:25
About free will and determinism, personally, I 'believe' in free will, but we are not in an epistemic (knowledge) position to absolutely know whether it is free will or determinism.

It could be that we have free will to believe in free will.
It could be that we have free will to believe we're determined.

It could be that we are determined to believe in free will.
It could be that we are determined to believe that we're determined.

If things stayed the same, would we have a concept of time? isn't time most familiar to us through the passing of the days, the passing of the seasons?  Through our passing breath?
Light cones and time travel are food for thought, they are not particularly serious food for thought.

Of course, there is the stoic free-will of the dog tied to the cart, either the dog can go happily along the cart, or he can be dragged along.  Either way, he's going, but he can either freely go along, or reluctantly go along.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2019 at 22:37
Originally posted by admin admin wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

night follows day, follows night, circular after a fashion.  Nietzsche's eternal recurrence of the same, which I won't expound on right now.  It is a thought experiment.

Saying that space/time is the way Einstein or Heisenberg characterized it, does not necessarily clarify much.  I am not even sure that Einstein and Heisenberg agreed, at least not on quantum physics.

When the elephant and the tiger fight, the grass gets trampled.  Just an idle thought.

A police officer pulled over Werner Heisenberg, he asked him, "do you know how fast you were going?"  Heisenberg said, "no, but I know where I am."

1. Is that necessarily correct? Should/could it not be day follows night? But that's not time is it, it's a human construct of a natural phenomena.
2. But what if the fight takes place where there is no grass?
3. He should have been tested for DUI Drugs.

What is true today, may not be true tomorrow. Science is turning old beliefs upside down-so time could in fact be circular, we'll have to wait and see.



The Pentagon is no longer denying claims of UFO sightings. The Navy isn't calling them spacemen but they have officially stopped saying  that eyewitness reports are misleading and that recorded UFO sightings have been "equipment" related.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2019 at 13:25
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

night follows day, follows night, circular after a fashion.  Nietzsche's eternal recurrence of the same, which I won't expound on right now.  It is a thought experiment.

Saying that space/time is the way Einstein or Heisenberg characterized it, does not necessarily clarify much.  I am not even sure that Einstein and Heisenberg agreed, at least not on quantum physics.

When the elephant and the tiger fight, the grass gets trampled.  Just an idle thought.

A police officer pulled over Werner Heisenberg, he asked him, "do you know how fast you were going?"  Heisenberg said, "no, but I know where I am."

1. Is that necessarily correct? Should/could it not be day follows night? But that's not time is it, it's a human construct of a natural phenomena.
2. But what if the fight takes place where there is no grass?
3. He should have been tested for DUI Drugs.

What is true today, may not be true tomorrow. Science is turning old beliefs upside down-so time could in fact be circular, we'll have to wait and see.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2019 at 12:10
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

I don't think that mathematicians agree, or even really understand, if a circle with an infinite radius is actually a line. If so, would an infinite line really be a circle ? Does the circumference retain some sort of curve, or does it become a line ? Who knows........ Or is it all something that exists, like Grover's Corners,  only in the Mind of God..........
Infinity for the Greeks was more like "boundless" as I understand it, the snake eating its tail is regeneration -is that the never ending aspect of the symbol?

When do we experience an "edge effect"? Seems like sleeping and waking are the most transformative, recurring states that we experience and can see in nature. Opposing forces creating an edge effect in our little nest must be indicative of a broader system that we lose sight of entirely with Hubble!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2019 at 03:32
I don't think that mathematicians agree, or even really understand, if a circle with an infinite radius is actually a line. If so, would an infinite line really be a circle ? Does the circumference retain some sort of curve, or does it become a line ? Who knows........ Or is it all something that exists, like Grover's Corners,  only in the Mind of God..........

Edited by Windemere - 30 May 2019 at 03:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2019 at 23:24
Causality prevents the Grandfather Paradox. So the fact you exist in spite of your intentions means you never meet him or enact something that affects him. But that presupposes the past is co-existent with our current moment. I don't believe that it is (I've already mentioned this of course). The problem with allowing a past that co-exists with Now means that the Future must also, and if that's the case, then everything is pre-determined and we have no actual freedom of will. Do you believe that? I'm sure your grandfather will be relieved to hear his existence isn't unnecessarily threatened, but then, stepping in front of the number ten bus looking the other way is unavoidable. Fate?
 
Personally, I hold that Fate is the sum of all decisions and natural forces. Yes, you can direct your future - but so conceivably can anyone else. What matters is that the decision is yours rather than anyone else I guess - the Romans would have understood that point. To them, free will and self determination were the fundamental reasons why slaves and animals existed to be directed. They understood something intuitively which I arrive at from rational consideration. But then, their decisions and those of their rivals cost them their superiority.
 
Jupiter reneged on his promise it seems.


Edited by caldrail - 29 May 2019 at 23:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2019 at 08:50
If I understand correctly, in order to get time travel, you need slanted time/space, so that the light cones become vertical or near vertical.  Which is 'why' the Enterprise had to slingshot around the sun's gravity well in order to go back in time to get whales.  If the intense gravity well of a blackhole is necessary for time travel, well then, I am not sure the grandfather paradox is going to be a practical concern.

Of course, there is the possibility that time travel is really probability travel (Flight of the Horse, Larry Niven), that 'time travel' is possible, but any society that engages in it, will snuff out the possibility of their own timeline (a societal grandfather paradox).  So, it is both possible, and at the same time any society that engages in it will 'nip their society in the bud.'

In Larry Niven's flight of the horse collection there is a moronic time traveler sent back to fetch extinct animals (Star Trek wasn't original in this respect.)  He goes back for a horse, and gets a unicorn, which leads to the kingdom altering all its books on horses, to include a horn on the pictures.  I think on one trip, he brings back the Midgard Serpent (Norse mythos).

I don't know quantum mechanics well enough to say it excludes time travel (although from my vague understanding, on the level of particles there is something nicknamed 'spooky-action' which implies that maybe it does not (exclude).  But, look upon the whole 'matter' as a logical problem, a reduction ad absurdum.  If this is the case, then this and this and this is the case, and then you have to worry about killing your grandfather before you were ever born.

On another thread, I mentioned a black physicist who was an expert in time travel.  His story is neat and so I would suggest to anyone to look up "black physicist, time travel" to read it.  One does not have to believe in time travel to appreciate his story.

But, to get back to the linear/ cyclical question, I wonder if it could be both?  What is the difference between a straight line and the circumference of a circle with an infinite radius?  Well, maybe not totally straight, and maybe not completely infinite.  Or is this just another example of using a logical chain until we get to something absurd?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2019 at 20:15
Light cones are an elegant explanation and one modern physicists prefer. Personally I'm a little unconvinced by the concept despite the appearance that it works, all a little too convenient and has an underlying intent to create a situation which allows for time travel. There's one guy out there somewhere trying to create a time machine by manipulating light into travelling backward. Good luck, but I still say quantum mechanics prevents time travel - which after all, is merely a literary concept with no actual science behind it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2019 at 07:28
two different topics,

school shooting, the kid at the STEM school that (with others) fought to disarm the attacker, got shot and died.  His death is tragic, but heroic.

other topic, being and becoming, Heraclitus as the philosopher of becoming.  I think that if one was more familiar with Heraclitus, one might see the appropriateness of his death, but no, it is not tragic or heroic.
Heraclitus said that bodies should be thrown out sooner than dung. and other sayings.

light-cone, I forget C, speed of light.  260,000 m/s??  Only things within the cone can have an effect
. . . . . . . . . .            on later events in the cone, and thus ultimately the "discrete" event at the center
 . . . . . . . . .             of the cone, in turn that event can only effect later events, dependent on whether
  . . . . . . . .              its effects have traveled far enough, as determined by time and the speed of light.
   . . . . . . .
    . . . . . .
     . . . . .
      . . . .
       . . .
        . .     T-1 one time unit before the event, forming a causal radius of one unit, 
                            everything within the causal radius of one light-unit has an effect on time of event.
         .                 T+/-0 Time of the event.
        : :
       : : :
      : : : : 
     : : : : :     T+4, 4 time units after the event

So if Alpha Centauri exploded, we would not see it immediately but would see it roughly 4.5 years later, the event for us would not happen until we saw it.


Edited by franciscosan - 20 May 2019 at 07:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2019 at 01:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

  Heraclitus is the philosopher of becoming.

Everybody dies, but not everybody dies heroically>  I think he did well, and we should rejoice in his life, while at the same time noting his death.
Heraclitus death, while gross doesn't on it's face seem heroic. I'm not saying it wasn't heroic but why do you say so?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2019 at 10:59
No I don't think the bad are more important than the happy.  I think the happy helps get us through the bad, and the bad helps us appreciate the happy.

The traditional distinction is past tense (was), present tense (being, is), and future tense (will be), or future tense possible (may be, can be).  becoming is sort of between present tense (being) and future tense will be.  Becoming is that which is coming to be,  So at least from a traditional philosophy metaphysics, is is being, becoming is a little different.  Heraclitus is the philosopher of becoming.

Everybody dies, but not everybody dies heroically>  I think he did well, and we should rejoice in his life, while at the same time noting his death.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2019 at 11:25
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We have some say over what is, and what will be (present and future) or so it seems, the problem with the past is that it is not "is" and therefore we cannot "do" anything about it, except obsess about it (the revenge of the 'it was') or accept it.  But, even accepting part of it is problematic, you gotta take the whole thing, the good and the bad.
Do you think the "bad" parts are more valuable to human greatness than the "happy" parts?

The future appears to materialize overnight but events require momentum. Everything that occurs is rehashed and analyzed to determine "what" precipitated and "when" an event began to unfold.
"IS" could  be viewed as "Becoming." Anyway the theme was used in the book/film Red Dragon to describe the killer's becoming the dragon in Blake's painting "Woman clothed by the Sun." "The Mental Traveler" the poem by Blake, is similar to M-brane theory and you described a repeating cycle where even details and identities are the same. It's a reenactment of the "great fall" with new scenery, except that one changes form in death and is the darkness in one existence and the light in the next.


Quote A lot of these kids that shoot up schools don't have any particular traumatic experience, but they definitely have a sense of revenge (against) the 'it was'.  They are bored and nihilistic.  Perhaps, they
would actually have less rage if there was 'something' bad that had happened to them.  Or so it seems to me.
Very sad again school shooting, this time a young man died to save others. You are right about the mass shooters on any scale. A Swami would say that the shooters do not love and strong energy builds up in them. Bitter resentment poisons the mind until a person is "adrift" from emotional connections. Drugs keep people from feeling emotional pain, including the pain that is meant to keep you from making the same mistakes, loss of empathy entirely.


Edited by Vanuatu - 18 May 2019 at 01:34
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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