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The heroes of Greek mythos

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    Posted: 12 hours 18 minutes ago at 11:29
Where do you get this demigod thang?  There are mortals, heroes, daemons (which are often the spirits of heroes after death), and gods.  Achilles in his rage pushes up on the ceiling of being a mortal, but is still not divine.  Heracles becomes immortal when he takes upon himself Chiron's immortality.  Chiron was poisoned by one of the arrows of Heracles dipped in Hydra blood.  Which is why he needs to be immolated to free himself from the Hydra blood poison, when he is poisoned by the robe Deijanira made from the centaur Nessus' hide (who Heracles shot).  She was told by Nessus that if he ever strayed, the robe would make sure he (Herc) he would stay with her.

Now maybe Romans had demigods.  But the Pythagoreans said that there are three things that are rational, mortals, gods, and one thing besides Pythagoras).

The dog is pressuring me for a walk.  I have no will of my own.  I will get to Tartarus soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 16:59
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Apollo directed the arrow from Paris' bow that killed Achilles.  Some accounts hitting him in his vulnerable heel.  You could kill Achilles, you just had to know where to hit him, at least according to later versions.

Apollo, by this time was probably prohibited like the rest of the gods from actively helping his side, telling Paris where to aim, wouldn't 'quite' be interference.

There is a difference between Hades and Tartarus.  I don't know what "most essays and articles" are, it would be good to know when and who those articles are published.  Scholarship changes over time, although a lot of what I like is old scholarship.
Paris is mortal though, how does mortal kill demigod?

The first link discusses the beliefs about afterlife, war dead, Iliad/Oddessy/Aeneid.

The nature of Tartarus -

The primordial deity of the Tartarean pit sired a single child by Gaia (Earth) named Typhoeus--a monstrous, serpentine storm-giant who attempted to seize the throne of heaven. Zeus vanquished the creature and cast it back down into the pit of Tartaros where it remained as the cosmic-source of hurricanes and storm winds. The protogenos (primordial deity) Tartaros scarcely figures in myth and was a purely elemental deity, i.e. the pit itself instead of an anthropomorphic god.

Later, classical writers re-imagined Tartaros as a hellish prison-house for the damned conflating it with Homer's Haidean chamber of torments. This realm is described on a separate page--Tartaros, the Dungeon of the Damned.

Basically Achilles knows he is turning Hector into a ghost but may feel entirely obligated to do it. 

https://lawandreligionforum.org/2015/10/27/mistreating-the-enemys-body-the-judgment-of-zeus/

“Does not the hero’s beautiful death, which grants him eternal glory, have as its necessary corollary, its sinister obverse, the disfigurement and debasement of the dead opponent’s body, so as to deny him access to the memory of men to come? . . . [W]hat is most important is not to kill one’s enemy but to deprive him of a beautiful death.” When Achilles drag Hector through the dust, he seeks to deny him that “beautiful death”; when Apollo protects Hector with his golden shield, a god ensures that Hector may still have the beautiful death worthy of such a warrior.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 13:38
Apollo directed the arrow from Paris' bow that killed Achilles.  Some accounts hitting him in his vulnerable heel.  You could kill Achilles, you just had to know where to hit him, at least according to later versions.

Apollo, by this time was probably prohibited like the rest of the gods from actively helping his side, telling Paris where to aim, wouldn't 'quite' be interference.

There is a difference between Hades and Tartarus.  I don't know what "most essays and articles" are, it would be good to know when and who those articles are published.  Scholarship changes over time, although a lot of what I like is old scholarship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 00:09
"filtration??"
The word filtration-reading about Achilles in the afterlife. The reason for keeping figures of deceased relatives around was less about grief more about Eusebia or piety, it was a citizens responsibility to keep the dead happy by remembering. And remember them happy! It will keep the dead from causing mischief for the living. If you were in Elysium and no living person held you in memory as a virtuous person then as a psyche would be downgraded to Tartarus.

The pysche in death or eidolon did not have intellect or phrenes. The intellect has been left in the body  possibly the liver and diaphragm. So the reflection of Achilles in death is a diminished reflection of living Achilles. Most essays and articles have Achilles wandering the plains of Tartarus for eternity. Achilles is less and less an essence of his former human self until he returns to a kind of mist. Still working on finding that article it was unique for its discussion eternity being more like infinity.

Eventually everyone is alone in Tartarus, then you are free again. Killing the demigod was not something Paris could do, Apollo has reasons for killing Achilles.
Wiki-

Etymology[edit]

demi- +‎ god. Calque of the Latin semideus (half-god), which is probably a coining by the Roman poet Ovid for less important gods such as dryads.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2019 at 03:32
filtration??

I wonder if "demigod" is a modern coinage.  Achilles lived fast and died young, he could have lived slow, amounted to little, and died later.  Not dying was not an option.  Although admittedly it does seem like an option for Menelaus, Helen, and maybe Heracles.

Of course, he is talking to Odysseus in the underworld, the ultimate survivor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 15:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


Achilles did get glory, he slew Hector who was the heart of the Trojan defense.  He also later (than the Iliad) slew Memnon, whose mother was the goddess Dawn.

Achilles tells Odysseus in the Underworld that he would rather be low and alive rather than glorified but in Hades awaiting filtration. Almost starting to sound like sin, any choice by a demigod should have kept him above ground, do you agree?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2019 at 04:19
I don't know how it is phrased, from my understanding at some point he could freely have chosen A or freely have chosen B.  Whereas, a lot of people by trying to avoid their fate actually fell into it.  Oedipus, fleeing so that he would not murder his father (actually his _adopted_ father), ran into his actual father, murdered him, and then went to the nearby city and married the queen, thus becoming the king, but also the husband of his mother.

Achilles did get glory, he slew Hector who was the heart of the Trojan defense.  He also later (than the Iliad) slew Memnon, whose mother was the goddess Dawn.

Of course, some people will argue that actually Achilles as a hero had no choice, but had to go back into the fray.  That is who "he was."  But, I think that there actually was a time, when he could have gone a different direction than the direction he did go.  It is kind of a counterfactual, 'if Achilles had done 'X,' (sailed away, not avenged Patroclus, not given Patroclus his armor....), he would have lived a long and uneventful life.  It is a type of knowledge that we don't have, "the time right now is 11:14, if I had gone to the store this morning, I would have gotten a candy bar."  I did not go to the store, therefore I couldn't have known whether I would have gotten a candy bar, but a god could know.  That is what we are imaging when we imagine two fates, (or twin fates?), I think of them as twin, because they are paired together, one can do one or the other, but not both. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 12:26
Quote Achilles also has twin fates, something that only one other Greek hero has (and we have a name, but don't know his story), he could either live a long but uneventful life, or a short but glorious one.

Achilles has two fates, or did you mean twin? They are very different choices. Lots of regular people have to make that choice too. Achilles chose glory but he didn't get it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 10:31
When Ajax lost the contest to Odysseus, he went a brooded in his tent, then he decided to go on a rampage killing Odysseus and the two kings, Menelaus and Agememnon as well as the other Greeks.  Athena however found out what he was planning and deceived him in his rage, and sent him into the flock of sheep and cattle that the Greeks had won from defeating the Trojans.  Wading into the cattle, he thought he was killing the Greeks.  When his senses cleared, he discovered what he had done, went to th beach and fell on his sword.

So, you have the
The Theban Cycle,
The Trojan Cycle,
The Argonautica (Miletus)
The Boeotian tradition.
and others which we know little
or nothing about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 05:15
Different mythological origins.  Think of Troy as a generation or two after most of the heroes.  Some the heroes are suns of heroes.  Philotectes who left behind on an island with a festering wound, has Heracles bow.  Something the Achaeans (Greeks need according to prophecy).  In earlier days Heracles visited Troy.   I think it is Diomedes who is the son of Tydeus who fought before Thebes, another cycle.  The myths to some degree overlap, but not always nor completely.  Heracles is in the Argonaut, but bows out early on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 11:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't know what mythology.
Sorry, the Furies are associated with the three Graces

InEumenides,Orestes' act was depicted as just, and the god Apollo* protected him in his sacredshrineat Delphi*. But the Furies still demanded justice. Finally, the gods persuaded the Furies to allow Orestes to be tried by the Areopagus, an ancient court in the city of Athens. The goddess Athena*, thepatronof Athens, cast the deciding ballot.

Athena then calmed the anger of the Furies, who became known afterward as the Eumenides (soothed ones) or Semnai Theai (honorable goddesses). Now welcomed in Athens and given a home there, they helped protect the city and its citizens from harm. The Furies also had shrines dedicated to them in other parts of Greece. In some places, the Furies were linked with the three Graces, goddess sisters who represented beauty, charm, and goodness—qualities quite different from those usually associated with the Furies

Read more: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Fi-Go/Furies.html#ixzz5xqiX9Gjy

Quote The greatest Hero (besides Heracles) is probably Achilles.  After Achilles died, Odysseus and Ajax the Greater competed over his armor (made by Hephaestus), each gave his speech, Ajax was an immensely strong hero, who did not have to rely on the gods for his prowess, Odysseus however, argued that he deserved it, because not only did he personally do great heroic feats, but he urged other men on, and therefore was instrumental in winning the Trojan War.  Odysseus had done stuff like rally the men, when they were in a retreat, he stood up to Achilles when Achilles wanted the whole army to fast after the death of Patroclus, saying that Achilles could do what he wants, but the whole army needs its breakfast if they were going to fight that day.  Odysseus won the armor and so, because of his wiles is the second greatest hero after Achilles before Troy.
Armand Assante was a great Odysseus in the 1997 extended film. Clash of the Titans 1981 and Jason and the Argonauts made in 1963 are great depictions. The skeleton fight scenes done with the animation of Ray Harryhausen made it impressive work for the time and it is still very clever now. Jason and Perseus are great heroes. 
Are they in a different category than Achilles and Ajax? The goddesses Athena & Hera offered a lot of assistance to Jason and Perseus.
  


Edited by Vanuatu - 28 Aug 2019 at 11:31
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I don't know what mythology.

The greatest Hero (besides Heracles) is probably Achilles.  After Achilles died, Odysseus and Ajax the Greater competed over his armor (made by Hephaestus), each gave his speech, Ajax was an immensely strong hero, who did not have to rely on the gods for his prowess, Odysseus however, argued that he deserved it, because not only did he personally do great heroic feats, but he urged other men on, and therefore was instrumental in winning the Trojan War.  Odysseus had done stuff like rally the men, when they were in a retreat, he stood up to Achilles when Achilles wanted the whole army to fast after the death of Patroclus, saying that Achilles could do what he wants, but the whole army needs its breakfast if they were going to fight that day.  Odysseus won the armor and so, because of his wiles is the second greatest hero after Achilles before Troy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 22:56
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Never saw Oliver Stone's "Troy"  I cannot see the furies being made into the fates, nor into (a separate thing), guardians of motherhood and childbirth  But, I would expect Oliver Stone to muck it up.
The three fates are, if I remember right Clotho who weaves the thread, Lachesis who measures the thread, and Atropos who cuts the thread.  (I think I got the names right).  This is the thread of a man's life, presumably woman's also.

But the fates are not goddesses of childbearing.
The bit about Achilles on the chariot is in the movie "Troy"

The bit about Athena turning Furies into Fates is mythology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 14:15
Never saw Oliver Stone's "Troy"  I cannot see the furies being made into the fates, nor into (a separate thing), guardians of motherhood and childbirth  But, I would expect Oliver Stone to muck it up.
The three fates are, if I remember right Clotho who weaves the thread, Lachesis who measures the thread, and Atropos who cuts the thread.  (I think I got the names right).  This is the thread of a man's life, presumably woman's also.

But the fates are not goddesses of childbearing.


Edited by franciscosan - 26 Aug 2019 at 14:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 13:08
I remember from the Oliver Stone film "Troy" the chariots wee used like that, seemed to make a point of showing it. LOL

Athena makes the Furies into the Fates, guardians of motherhood and childbirth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2019 at 15:16
Do you know what Erinyes means?  The Erinyes are the (3?) goddesses known in English as the Furies, but their name _Erinyes_ means "kindly ones" because basically if you called them what they were [terrible avenging goddesses], they would come after you.

Patroclus means "father's glory" [Heracles=Hera's glory], a feminine version of the name is Cleopatra.

Homer knew about chariots, but he did not really understand how they were used in war, in the Iliad, they're kinda used as taxi cabs used to take the hero to where he is going to get off and fight on foot.

The god who was going to kill Achilles, is (also) Apollo, he would direct the arrow shot by Paris (also called Alexander), the bodily invulnerability except for the heel is a later development.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 13:01
At Iliad 17.474-8, Automedon, Achilles' charioteer, states that only Patroclus was able to fully control these horses. When Xanthus was rebuked by the grieving Achilles for allowing Patroclus to be slain, Hera granted Xanthus human speech which broke Divine law, allowing the horse to say that a god had killed Patroclus and that a god would soon kill Achilles too. After this, the Erinyes struck the horse dumb.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 12:36
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I say, I don't remember, but it is just one line.  I am not living at my condo right now where most of my books are.  His horses have names, and so if you figure out their names, you can probably find the passage in an index.

But, there are weird things preserved in Iliad and the Odyssey.  The gates of horn and ivory are another one, (in the Odyssey, and in Virgil's Aeneid).  But look it up, and _then_ ask me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 12:31
I say, I don't remember, but it is just one line.  I am not living at my condo right now where most of my books are.  His horses have names, and so if you figure out their names, you can probably find the passage in an index.

But, there are weird things preserved in Iliad and the Odyssey.  The gates of horn and ivory are another one, (in the Odyssey, and in Virgil's Aeneid).  But look it up, and _then_ ask me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 11:57
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Not even Achilles, leader of the ant-men?  I think Rhys Carpenter might argue that fairy prince is where it started out, not where it went.  If one can mix mythos in a Dungeons and Dragons game, maybe a shaman with a valkyrie, then I don't see how a reformed fairy prince would be that big of a deal in an Epic Tale.  Carpenter also argues that Odysseus is something out of a folk tale.

You do know that Achilles' horses could speak?  They say one thing and go mute ever after.

 Hi, what do Achilles horses say?




Edited by Vanuatu - 23 Aug 2019 at 12:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 09:00
I don't know if Achilles saw the dead, the translation you use is old, it rhymes (which is an English poetical thing), it uses Roman names for the gods instead of the Greek names.  What do we mean by a line in a poem that 'says' Achilles saw the dead.  I would have to look at a newer translation, and maybe try to figure out what the Greek "original" is saying.  But, even then, that wouldn't necessarily mean that Homeric heroes sometimes see the dead.  It doesn't even mean that Achilles can see the dead, although there are times when he is described as godlike, and not only godlike, but raging in battle like unto a god.

You know how Tolkein or Star Wars myths are, well the Iliad and the Odyssey are not like that.  They were "originally" told by bards composing 'on the fly.'  They evolved that way, and eventually, _somehow_ got copied down.  How they "originally" transferred from oral to written is not really understood.  But, different parts were composed at different times, mainly in the Archaic age (pre 480 BC), and they were edited and finalized in the Hellenistic Era, to pull a number out of a hat, 3rd or 2nd BC in Alexandria.  They are great tales, and out of the same soup comes the Attic Tragedies of 5th and 4th c.  But, the stories are not all consistent on a fine level, vaguely generally yes.  But, not necessarily.

For example, there is a dual case in Greek, like English has singular and plural nouns, well in the Archaic period particularly there is a dual case for pairs.  Agememnon sends Odysseus and, I think(?) Diomedes on an envoy to try to get the sulking Achilles back into the battle,  Odysseus and Diomedes go, and the language uses the dual case pronoun saying that they went.  They get there and all of a sudden Phoenix, Achilles' mentor, that doesn't appear anywhere else, entreats Achilles to accept the apology and gifts, and get back into battle, (note, I don't remember whether this is before or after, Odysseus speaks, and I don't remember whether Diomedes speaks), but it is like the two heroes go on embassy to Achilles, and all of a sudden 'blip' there is the aged Phoenix.  It is a better story with him entreating Achilles as well, but it is not consistent. and that is how the Iliad and the Odysey are, composed on the fly, by hereditary bards called Homeridae, the tales trade secrets which, somehow, got out.

The Attic (Athens) tragedies have a more ancient, archaic feel to them, more likely to deal in prophetic dreams, apparitions, so forth.  One chilling character is the poor Trojan (Troy=Ilium (Iliad)) princess Cassandra who becomes Agememnon's concubine.  Apollo loved her and gave her the gift of prophecy, and she still wouldn't sleep with him, but a god cannot take away from a mortal the gift of a god, (even their own gift), so Apollo cursed her so that while she could see the future, no one would believe her.  Well, she can vividly see that Agememnon's wife Clytemnestra and her lover Aigistus, are going to murder Agememnon and her in the bath, but she cannot do anything about it, and no one will believe her.  There are stories of prophecies in the Iliad, but one does not see them, just hears about them as givens, oh, heroes can see gods and goddesses in the Iliad and the Odyssey, if the deity allows it.  But, what is also cool is the language of Homeric Greek that tells of phenomena and manifestations, much more glorious than plain old English, it would be like technicolor vs. regular film.  Sorry I cannot explain better than that.

When we are told by mythology that Zeus turned into a bull and fathered a hero with Europa, it means that the bull Zeus and Europa made the two-backed beast and got it on.  Now later interpretations and readings made this into analogies (like Euhemerism), that was not what the original myth was getting at.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 02:32
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 
I don't think that men look any lesser upon him for letting Helen come back (instead of running her through).  She is the daughter of Zeus, which since gods and goddesses usually had sons, is itself something special.
When we read daughter or son of a god, is it really more a description of an ideal? The ancients don't actually believe in a god bloodline but a hero has the charisma or attributes of stand out. If there is no anointing at the young adult stage, it's already happened by magical birth. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 02:24
So Achilles saw the dead. Does it follow that Homer understood this about humans in general? Apparitions, visions, ghosts or memories that just seem real-were and are a part of life.

Seeing hundreds of dead bodies in dreams or in flashbacks isn't easily overcome, if ever. Romans and Greeks wanted a proper cremation/burial respectively, to put the spirits at rest. The whole idea was to keep the dead from coming back. Although who can say among everyday people of the time, what the relationship was to seeing dead relatives. Homer did more influencing than was influenced by his times, according to scholar sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 08:18
If your wife is beautiful, everybody will want her.
If your wife is ugly nobody will want her.
I think the answer is for your wife to be beautiful, to you. although that also may just be another way
of saying she has character flaws to which you are blind.
Menelaus had the former problem.  
I don't think that men look any lesser upon him for letting Helen come back (instead of running her through).  She is the daughter of Zeus, which since gods and goddesses usually had sons, is itself something special.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 14:13
Myth of Er, "Spindle of Necessity" fascinating! thanks

In a hundred years during Homer's influence on mainland Greece the hero cults grow from 5 to 37. Menelaus likely got thumbs downs and Plato gave the heroes a sequel. 

6 J. N. Coldstream, “Hero-Cults in the Age of Homer,” Journal of Hellenic Studies 96 (1976), 9, 10.

The drastic increase in the amount of hero-cults is remarkable in such a short period of time. According to J. N. Coldstream: Blegen observed that none of the Prosymna votives was earlier than the late eighth century...These cults were suddenly instituted in the late eighth century because that was the time when the Homeric poems were beginning to circulate over  the mainland of Greece. … Many more of these votive deposits have been found in several regions; they lend powerful confirmation to the theory put forward by Farnell and Cook.36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 13:34
Actually, in the Tale of Er in Plato's _Republic_, it is time for all the heroes to pick their lots for their next life.  All the big heroes are there, except Achilles, the implication is that he has gotten out of the cycle.

Simone Weil has an essay called, "Iliad, Poem of Might," in it she shows how the Iliad gives examples of everything that is terrible in war, or we might say, 'awesome and terrible.'  In Japanese the word would be 'taihen' which means great and terrible at the same time.  I have not checked it out, but I believe that each death in the Iliad is different, and yet the same.  People get disemboweled, run through the helmet with a spear, etc, etc, etc.  again each death is different, personal, yet the same.  slavery, concubinage, plague, defiling bodies. betrayal.  The Iliad is very honest about war, although there are somethings that are expurgated, the use of poison on arrows for example.  Arrows hurt tremendously when they hit, but are never fatal, never described as poisoned.  Odysseus in the Odyssey is said to have traveled to get poison for his arrows. 

I think that it is interesting that Menelaus (and of course, Helen) get to go to the Elysian fields (mentioned in the Odyssey).  He doesn't seem to "deserve" that, he isn't the greatest of heroes.  However, Heracles becomes a god, Odysseus probably could have lived forever, if that is what he wanted, if he had stayed with the goddess Calypso.  But, he wanted to go home, he did not even get to stay home on Ithaca, according to later stories.
There are other stories of heroes in the Elysian fields, I don't know if the list was standardized.  Again, Homer's story is not necessarily the best example mythologically.  Homer uses the stories of mythology, but in service of his general story, not necessarily in service of myth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 01:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In your quote, the hundred are not casualties of Achilles, it is not clear that they are casualties of Hector, because elsewhere it seems like Hector doesn't ever kill anyone besides Patroclus.  On the other hand, the story is not internally consistent, partially because it comes out of an oral tradition.  I would want to look at a newer translation, or even try to delve into the Homeric Greek.
 
I see the disconnect. Menelaos gets Elysian Fields for being a son in law of Zeus? Achilles spends eternity in Hades? Maybe in the quote the dead cry out for proper burial, no shortage of death and mutilation scenes. 

"In the Odyssey, Homer describes the underworld as having different areas for the different types of deceased. For instance, Menelaos will spend eternity in the Elysian Fields because he is Helen’s husband, the son-in-law of Zeus. The Elysian Fields, situated at the ends of the earth with the rest of the underworld, was considered to be paradise where the privileged resided."
Recommended Citation Adams, Jeff (2007) "Greek and Roman Perceptions of the Afterlife in Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey and Virgil’s Aeneid," McNair Scholars Journal: Vol. 11: Iss. 1, Article 2. Available at: http://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/mcnair/vol11/iss1/2


Edited by Vanuatu - 15 Aug 2019 at 03:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2019 at 13:48
In your quote, the hundred are not casualties of Achilles, it is not clear that they are casualties of Hector, because elsewhere it seems like Hector doesn't ever kill anyone besides Patroclus.  On the other hand, the story is not internally consistent, partially because it comes out of an oral tradition.  I would want to look at a newer translation, or even try to delve into the Homeric Greek.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 05:08
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't remember Achilles seeing ghosts, but it has been awhile since I read the _Iliad_.  It should be understood that heroes in ancient Greece are generally not the nice guys that you would like to take home to mother.  And heroines generally end up badly, jilted at least.  Penelope and Helen are in many ways exceptions.  There is a Hesiodic work (Eoie(?)) which is about the women who through their affairs with the gods, give birth to the various "tribes" of the Greeks.  Of course, the Greeks were well aware of the "problematic" nature of the heroes.
Wondering, How would you interpret this passage?
http://https://www.bartleby.com/203/185.html

‘Let Hector die,        125
And let me fall!’ (Achilles made reply.)
‘Far lies Patroclus from his native plain;
He fell, and, falling, wish’d my aid in vain.
Ah then, since from this miserable day
I cast all hope of my return away;        130
Since, unrevenged, a hundred ghosts demand
The fate of Hector from Achilles’ hand;
Since here, for brutal courage far renown’d,
I live an idle burden to the ground
(Others in council famed for nobler skill,        135
More useful to preserve than I to kill);
Let me—But oh! ye gracious Powers above!
Wrath and revenge from men and Gods remove:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 20:55
Human psychology and story telling tend toward similar forms. That doesn't mean a medieval superstition has any actual links in ancient Greece. Two different cultures and mythologies. This all seems like the human talent for spotting patterns. It's the root cause of the ridiculous conspiracy theories we have to wade through today.
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