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Trump and the domestic arena

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    Posted: 15 Mar 2017 at 21:54
This thread is for discussing President Trump and his domestic affect.
I like including the word "arena" because Trump is definitely
scrappy and belligerent.  I don't think Trump will ever
entirely be "domesticated," he is not a very "civil" person.
But by domestic, I mean events that happen within
the United States, its political system, and to a lesser
extent its cultural influence.  I would include the
"economic" realm in this category for now.

President Trump seems to have been accompanied by an upturn 
in the market, to me this is not surprising because President
Obama berated Wall Street, businesses and investors using
the bully pulpit of the Presidency.  Statistics show that the
economy improved after the recession during President Obama's 
 term, but it seems to me that improvements were muted due to
Obama's rhetoric against business.  Business in general is fairly
conservative (risk adverse) and feeling attacked by Obama, was
even more conservative in its actions.  The perception is that
with Donald Trump, business has a friend in the White House,
or at least not a radical that has an axe to grind.  Therefore, there
has been a bit of an economic upswing, at least public perceptionwise.
whether it is sustainable, or a bubble remains to be seen.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 23:21
Amid all of Trumps erratic behaviour, it seems that the American economy has taken an upturn.

Who would have believed it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2017 at 13:41
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Amid all of Trumps erratic behaviour, it seems that the American economy has taken an upturn.

Who would have believed it?

Are you kidding?Cool 
Only teen actresses would rather have Hillary than a strong economy. Who would have believed it? 
Only the people who voted for him. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2017 at 14:06
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

This thread is for discussing President Trump and his domestic affect.
I like including the word "arena" because Trump is definitely
scrappy and belligerent.  I don't think Trump will ever
entirely be "domesticated," he is not a very "civil" person.
But by domestic, I mean events that happen within
the United States, its political system, and to a lesser
extent its cultural influence.  I would include the
"economic" realm in this category for now.

President Trump seems to have been accompanied by an upturn 
in the market, to me this is not surprising because President
Obama berated Wall Street, businesses and investors using
the bully pulpit of the Presidency.  Statistics show that the
economy improved after the recession during President Obama's 
 term, but it seems to me that improvements were muted due to
Obama's rhetoric against business.  Business in general is fairly
conservative (risk adverse) and feeling attacked by Obama, was
even more conservative in its actions.  The perception is that
with Donald Trump, business has a friend in the White House,
or at least not a radical that has an axe to grind.  Therefore, there
has been a bit of an economic upswing, at least public perceptionwise.
whether it is sustainable, or a bubble remains to be seen.  

You have said Trump doesn't have a mandate because Hillary won the popular vote. 

According to this National Review article there are three kinds of mandates;
1. Trump was legitimately elected and our election process is understood by both sides.
The fact that Trump did not win the national popular vote is irrelevant to his executive mandate — and not all that unusual in our system of government, either. Depending on how you count it, we’ve had either four or five prior presidents who did not win the national popular vote, and while that was a modest initial political liability for those presidents, their later success stood or fell on what they did with the office if they were able to win the Electoral College cleanly. 
JFK lost the popular vote.
2.A second kind of mandate is a voting-coalition mandate:
No other president would be expected to do something different from the very things that got him elected!
3.A legislative mandate 
Trump pushes a Republican agenda on jobs and infrastructure, which congressional democrats are going to oppose him?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2017 at 17:33
Fair comment Vanuatu.

IF Trump brings about beneficial change to the USA, good. But there needs, as I see it, to be more depth to his policies. He needs to display leadership which, IMHO, he hasn't to date.

And having a senior member of his administration consistently "explaining" what the President really meant is certainly not a good look.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2017 at 00:38
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Fair comment Vanuatu.

IF Trump brings about beneficial change to the USA, good. But there needs, as I see it, to be more depth to his policies. He needs to display leadership which, IMHO, he hasn't to date.

And having a senior member of his administration consistently "explaining" what the President really meant is certainly not a good look.


toymotor, there is depth to his policies. he smart enough to find smart people. If you select one policy in particular we can dissect it and bask in the depth. And presidents always have press secretaries explaining things. You know that, Spicer is just another spin guy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2017 at 06:58
Vanuatu I think I'll bow out of this conversation before I get a bleeding nose, or a black eye.

IMHO, Trumps public persona is that of a loud mouthed bully, who blames everyone else for things that go wrong.

I know you won't agree, but that's your prerogative.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 01:01
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu I think I'll bow out of this conversation before I get a bleeding nose, or a black eye.

IMHO, Trumps public persona is that of a loud mouthed bully, who blames everyone else for things that go wrong.

I know you won't agree, but that's your prerogative.



He very well may be. That does not mean he won't be a better president than Obama. I'll have my opinions and you will have yours but Trump is much more like an 'average' American than you may be willing to accept.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 04:08
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 I'll have my opinions and you will have yours but Trump is much more like an 'average' 
American than you may be willing to accept.

Gee, I hope he doesn't personify the average American. I have an American cousin, whom I consider
 to be an average Joe, and he's nothing like Trump.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 06:52
Yep, another good look as Trump refuses to shake hands with Angela Merkel during a White House photo op. She even asked hms to shake hands at one stage, but he sat there with the usual sulky look on his face.

I got into an argument about him recently, someone said that Trump isn't a presidents arse, I argued that he is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 12:41
https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+merkel+handshake&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=nvi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUiLu7y-LSAhVD64MKHcn4DPYQ_AUICSgD&biw=414&bih=628&dpr=3#imgrc=WqzPOsnkX7cCxM:


https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+merkel+handshake&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=nvi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUiLu7y-LSAhVD64MKHcn4DPYQ_AUICSgD&biw=414&bih=628&dpr=3#imgrc=qlSG7NEo8ZMNAM:

https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+merkel+handshake&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=nvi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUiLu7y-LSAhVD64MKHcn4DPYQ_AUICSgD&biw=414&bih=628&dpr=3#imgrc=_Pb77cIYgDRENM:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 14:16
es_bih

Unfortunately, your post was received as lines of arkward code. Code you please send again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 14:23
es_bih

I reject your assessment.

Trump, by his behaviour, doesn't inspire much confidence in his ability to lead the western worlds greatest country.

Never have I witnessed such crap coming from the mouth of an American preident, and continually having his press aide explain what he really means, is further indication of the mess that he's creating amongst his own administration.

I'm not looking for unrealistic behaviour and/or outcomes, just normalcy in the American leadership.

Have a go at me all you like, BUT, prove me wrong!

And if you wish to engage me in a name calling competition, forget it.You're not worth the effort.




Edited by toyomotor - 19 Mar 2017 at 14:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 16:21
They're links to several hand shakes they had during that meeting. If your media sources said they did not shake hands they're "fake news."

Edited by es_bih - 19 Mar 2017 at 16:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 16:25
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

es_bih

I reject your assessment.

Trump, by his behaviour, doesn't inspire much confidence in his ability to lead the western worlds greatest country.

Never have I witnessed such crap coming from the mouth of an American preident, and continually having his press aide explain what he really means, is further indication of the mess that he's creating amongst his own administration.

I'm not looking for unrealistic behaviour and/or outcomes, just normalcy in the American leadership.

Have a go at me all you like, BUT, prove me wrong!

And if you wish to engage me in a name calling competition, forget it.You're not worth the effort.


I never witnessed more disturbing crap from an elected official than from Obama's regime. Passing healthcare because they could count on the stupidity of the american voter! That's Gruber Obama's boy.  
One man's normalcy is another's insanity. Obama was normal? What does that mean? He fired all of the Bush appointees. Most presidents do want their own people somehow you believe this to be an aberration. When Trump said the election would be hacked the media said he's insane, then when Hillary lost it was the Russians hacking! 

You make claims about Obama being the "last of the great men" "great diplomat" none of which you can substantiate. 
You prove that Obama's press secretary didn't stand there day after day explaining Obama's crap.
Obama was overturned by the Federal Court more times than any other president, and he is a constitutional lawyer. I don't know your cousin but yea, I've never known an average person like Obama the elitist Manchurian candidate, now living with his mentor Valerie Jarret.

Trump, however could sit next to someone at a ball game, talk sports and be a "normal" guy. For all his money and notoriety he still does connect with working class people. 

I would never relate to a man who says things like this;

#1. "We Do Not Consider Ourselves A Christian Nation" - [Source]
#2. “Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation” - [Source]
#3. “The future must not belong to those who slander the Prophet of Islam” - [Source]
#4. “The sweetest sound I know is the Muslim call to prayer” - [Source]
#5. “I also know that Islam has always been a part of America’s story.” - [Source]
#6. “I made clear that America is not – and never will be – at war with Islam.” - [Source]
#7. “Islam has always been part of America” - [Source]
#8. “Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance.” - [Source]
#9. “As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to Islam.” - [Source]
#10. “Throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.” - [Source]
#11. “we will encourage more Americans to study in Muslim communities” - [Source]

No love lost for religion on my part but this country -as we know it- was founded by christians not jihadis.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 21:42
President Trump failed to close the deal for Republican health care, he blames the democrats, but in reality, the Republicans were split on what they wanted (and didn't want), with little overall conception of what they were positively trying for.  The "freedom caucus" was the big hold outs, calling the plan Obamacare lite, but more moderate republican senators in left leaning districts also did not necessarily want to go along with it either.  Donald 'predicts' that the affordable healthcare act will implode by the end of the year, and that the democrats will come crawling back at that time (or something like that).

I am conservative in that I hate change, and I hate changing to Obama care, where I initially lost my insurance and my doctor, but darn it, I hate the idea of changing again.  I am not convinced that they have built a better "mousetrap."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 00:31
Now, what we just witnessed with this healthcare- replace- Obamacare mess was orchestrated entirely.
Trump has to save face with voters and so do democrats, lets make a deal. Trump 'tried' he didn't look too disappointed. 

Republicans 'tried' but now they are sooo enthusiastic about the next bill. 
Democrats were appalled but now they have great ideas to bring to the table.


So everyone wins, the politicians can still put their show on for the respective base support and most importantly that piece of crap legislation (never meant to pass) is history. I don't think most of us care what it's called, so it will be a new and improved version of Obamacare. No one cares what it's called except the pundits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 02:28
If they (the Republicans) had gotten this new healthcare bill, then they would have been in a better place for tax reform.  So no, not everyone wins, this is defeat for the Whitehouse, and for House majority leader Ryan and the mainstream Republicans.  The funny thing is that Bannon was trying to whip up support, but he was the one who, when he was at Brightbart news, was whipping up the Freedom caucus into a frenzy versus the Republican 'establishment.'  He was part of what lead to House majority leader, Bohner's decision to bow out.

It was pretty clear that the Republicans did not have a concrete idea of what they were planning to achieve.  President Trump seems to think that Obamacare will self-destruct (which it might), and that the democrats will come crawling to him afterwards, (not very likely).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 13:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

If they (the Republicans) had gotten this new healthcare bill, then they would have been in a better place for tax reform.  So no, not everyone wins, this is defeat for the Whitehouse, and for House majority leader Ryan and the mainstream Republicans.

Right franciscosan, democrats were going to hand over tax reform if the republicans overturned O -care. In what dimension? R's would have been steered into failure on the tax reform issue and anything else if O-Care was scratched. Trump said all along and so has (D) Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, who is working on reforming ACA;
 Zeke Emanuel, who worked as one of President Obama’s health care advisers, says the administration tilted the playing field too far in favor of the sick and elderly, making it difficult for young people to sign up. He says the administration should have let insurers charge older people more, perhaps four times as much as the youngest consumers.

“We made the wrong trade-off,” he says. “The consequence is costs for old people are higher because we don’t have enough young people in the pool.”

Do you want to pay for coverage that includes lactation devices? I don't want to buy coverage for prostate exams! Tax reform for business is what Trump is after but you are staring at the shiny thing in the corner, enlightened One. Rolling eyes *it's a given that the tax payer won't be winning*
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 The funny thing is that Bannon was trying to whip up support, but he was the one who, when he was at Brightbart news, was whipping up the Freedom caucus into a frenzy versus the Republican 'establishment.'  He was part of what lead to House majority leader, Bohner's decision to bow out.
Yes, isn't that a funny thing about Bannon? It is the appearance of keeping the campaign promise Trump made to get elected. The Freedom Caucus is the non liberal reason for Trump to change anything about his agenda and still appear to be 'with the people.'  
Can't comment on John "cry me a river" Bohner, just know I'm glad I don't have to watch him weeping on tv anymore.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

It was pretty clear that the Republicans did not have a concrete idea of what they were planning to achieve.  President Trump seems to think that Obamacare will self-destruct (which it might), and that the democrats will come crawling to him afterwards, (not very likely).
Six years and House Speaker Paul Ryan has an inadequate proposal that would have been even worse than O-Care.
Doesn't that sound like BS?
The premium hikes scheduled for 2017 will come to pass. Democrats won't be seen to crawl but they will deal with Trump on tax reform bc it's we the people who will pay for their conspiracies. Congress already has a great healthcare plan.


Edited by Vanuatu - Yesterday at 13:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Today at 00:59
You miss, misunderstand me:P  Tax reform would have been easier with the proposed healthcare since spending would be less, if spending is less, then there is more room to maneuver for cutting taxes.  That does not mean that democrats would be more cooperative.  
Of course, Congressional healthcare is good, they have good representation.
Yes, the idea in the "Affordable Care Act" was that the young and healthy would pay for the old and sick.  And yes, it is a matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul.  If you are healthy for now, why pay now when you can wait until you develop a pre-existing condition, which cannot be excluded?  Of course you have to pay a "tax" to do so, but for many it is worth it.  I am not saying that the "Affordable Care Act" works that well, I just don't have much confidence that anything better is around the corner, no matter what bunkus that that "businessman" in the Whitehouse is trying to sell.  Mr Trump is selling the hot fudge Sundae diet, you eat two Sundaes everyday, and you loose 5 pounds per week.  It is a great pipe dream.
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