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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 23:40
Some American bombers from the Doolittle raid made it to Russia, Stalin went to his engineers and ordered them to make "exact duplicates" of the bombers.  The engineers were not sure what he meant by that, but not wanting to ask, they made exact duplicates, including superficial patches from damage previously made when the plane had made bombing runs.

Kim Jong Un is a "crazy despot" like Joseph Stalin was a "crazy despot."  Both are worse by several orders of magnitude than Donald Trump.  We should not confuse the two, even though some people will inappropriately label Trump a despot or whatnot.  It is not true, and the fact that we can do so, and so publicly is a sign that it is not true.  Of course, neither Stalin nor Kim are crazy, they're just ruthless megalomaniacs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 01:41
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Some American bombers from the Doolittle raid made it to Russia, Stalin went to his engineers and ordered them to make "exact duplicates" of the bombers.  The engineers were not sure what he meant by that, but not wanting to ask, they made exact duplicates, including superficial patches from damage previously made when the plane had made bombing runs.

Kim Jong Un is a "crazy despot" like Joseph Stalin was a "crazy despot."  Both are worse by several orders of magnitude than Donald Trump.  We should not confuse the two, even though some people will inappropriately label Trump a despot or whatnot.  It is not true, and the fact that we can do so, and so publicly is a sign that it is not true.  Of course, neither Stalin nor Kim are crazy, they're just ruthless megalomaniacs.

It may, or may not, have been noticed that I haven't posted much about Trump recently, largely due to the preponderance of material in the media about him, and the fact that, frankly, I think I've made my point.

According to those same media sources, including the New York Times, he's losing popularity in his own party and fighting a battle to get Congress to accept some of his legislative changes.

He's definately sullied the US brand around the world among traditional allies. He needs to be very careful with international relations lest he finds himself and the USA without the support that the country has enjoyed over the decades.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2017 at 05:56
Quote It may, or may not, have been noticed that I haven't posted much about Trump recently, largely due to the preponderance of material in the media about him, and the fact that, frankly, I think I've made my point.

According to those same media sources, including the New York Times, he's losing popularity in his own party and fighting a battle to get Congress to accept some of his legislative changes.
The Congress legislates. Trump made a deal with democrats bc the republicans had 8 years to come up with a health care plan and came up very short with a majority in the House & Senate. They have a majority and they can't pinch out a stool together. Ouch

Trump is forcing the Congress to legislate on the debt, on DACA and on tax reform. Try watching the business news, jobs are exploding.

It comes down to the House of Representatives and the Senate. Their No 1 job is making the Law. The POTUS is the Executive Branch. It's his job to make sure that the country is protected and that the law is observed. 

FYI the DREAMers are NOT getting rounded up and shipped off. That reassurance came from Nanny P after her talk with Trump. There wasn't a single a nasty note in her cawing.

The Congress has to decide what to do bc Obama left them dangling on his exceedingly un-sustainable executive order. DACA was unconstitutional, Obama had no authority to give anyone "wiggly" citizenship. It defies immigration laws in existence. 
 

Quote He's definately sullied the US brand around the world among traditional allies. He needs to be very careful with international relations lest he finds himself and the USA without the support that the country has enjoyed over the decades.
Really? This smells epically sullied. Some Ethnic cleansing in Burma didn't make CNN? Obama's good news story;
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2017 at 06:37
Yes Trump is aggressively pushing a legislative agenda dictated by the mandate of the people who voted in the majority.

So republicans have worked with him. They have not delivered on healthcare which is huge and they backed away from other issues that are not critical to the R. leadership.
Trump's foreign policy legislative record:


Edited by Vanuatu - 14 Sep 2017 at 06:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 02:39
President Trump has, on several occasions, stated that the USA would not tolerate the US or it's allies being threatended by a nuclear armed North Korea.

Threats and counter threats have been exchanged between the US and North Korea, the latter ignoring repeated sanctions imposed by the United nations, and in recent weeks firing missiles over the Japanese island of Hokkaido. This is, IMO, an act of war.

In his maiden UN speech, Trump made it quite clear that the US was a patient nation, but that patience is wearing very thin. 

Quite disturbing is China's reluctance to intercede with North Korea in the interests of regional, and for that matter world wide stability.

The worrying aspect of the US threats of war with North Korea is, what would China and Russia do should the US attack North Korea.

China would not, could not tolerate US Military Forces on it's borders should the US and it's allies emerge victorious.

China, as far as can be ascertained at this stage, also would not tolerate a million or more North Korean refugees flooding it's borders.

Would China openly support North Korea in the case of war?

Would China's supporters throughout the world get involved on the North Korean/China side?

Would Russia take advantage of a second Korean War, as a distraction,  to advance it's own territorial interests in the Ukraine and the Baltic States?

The whole scenario sets the scene for World War Three as NATO would be drawn fully into the conflict.

Could this be the reason that the USA is being so tolerant of North Korea?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 02:58
Cats and dogs sleeping together, oh wait!  They do!  See what I mean!!!

Shooting missiles over is an act of aggression, Japan does not like it, but they are not going to go to war about it.  It is about the equivalent of U-2 flights over Soviet Union or Cuba, and then SR-71 flights, annoying, try to shoot them down, but part of the cold war (that in the Korean Peninsula is still going on).

I wouldn't worry about it that much if I was you, toyomotor, your far down in the Southern Hemisphere, probably safe from the fallout.  And who knows, maybe it will be the final straw to get Vanuatu to go down there and be your secretary.... <grin>
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 04:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

President Trump has, on several occasions, stated that the USA would not tolerate the US or it's allies being threatended by a nuclear armed North Korea.

Threats and counter threats have been exchanged between the US and North Korea, the latter ignoring repeated sanctions imposed by the United nations, and in recent weeks firing missiles over the Japanese island of Hokkaido. This is, IMO, an act of war.
.... disturbing is China's reluctance to intercede with North Korea in the interests of regional, and for that matter world wide stability.

Good article about Putin puppet-master-

"The key question is why Putin would exacerbate an already crisis-level situation on the Korean peninsula. The answer may be the same as to why Putin has embroiled Russia in Syria: as a way to disrupt and distract the West, especially the United States, and to make Kim Jong-un a Putin client like Syria’s Assad, a dictator who becomes completely dependent on Moscow for his regional status, even his survival, and will do Moscow’s bidding. As I’ve noted in my previous articles for NRO, the best short-term solution to the North Korean missile threat is intercepting an attack with a high-altitude, long-endurance UAV armed with interceptor missiles. However, because of missile trajectories, if a UAV shoots down a nuclear-armed ICBM headed for the U.S. in its boost phase, the debris will almost certainly fall on Russian territory.

Quote The worrying aspect of the US threats of war with North Korea is, what would China and Russia do should the US attack North Korea.


Quote China would not, could not tolerate US Military Forces on it's borders should the US and it's allies emerge victorious.
How could the US occupy the area? Not another war front. NoKo is going to implode the launch sites are crumbling. US would have to be there for massive humanitarian crisis, the one that exist now and the future nightmare if NoKo gets shot down, over Russia!

Quote China, as far as can be ascertained at this stage, also would not tolerate a million or more North Korean refugees flooding it's borders.
They certainly wouldn't wait for people to start sprinting across the border like in Europe. China has a policy of shooting NoKo s if they attempt entry.

Quote Would China openly support North Korea in the case of war?

Would China's supporters throughout the world get involved on the North Korean/China side?
 
China might severely condemn NoKo but I can't imagine them supporting any country that would intervene militarily in that part of the world. 
I think China is the kind of kid who pays you to be their friend. But China could covertly mess with the US all over the world, already do.

Quote Would Russia take advantage of a second Korean War, as a distraction,  to advance it's own territorial interests in the Ukraine and the Baltic States?
The world is Putin's chessboard, from the link. I have to say the weapons acceleration under KJU seemed suddenly light years ahead of Iran. Did you notice too?:

"For example, the Vladivostok-to-Rajin ferry shuttled unknown cargos on at least nine round trips until July 14, when Russian customs officials suddenly announced they were detaining the Mon Gyong Bong for 16 hours on suspicion it might be carrying cargo for North Korea’s military. The ferry was released the next day; no one knows if any cargo was taken off, or if any additional cargo was put on. Then 13 days later, North Korea shocked the world again with its Hwasong-14 ICBM, powered by what Elleman and other analysts concluded looked like Soviet-made RD-250 rocket engines. “It appears that they sourced that engine from a foreign entity and they have successfully incorporated that engine into their missiles,” said Elleman. A story in the New York Times said that the foreign entity might be Ukraine, which used to make RD-250s during the Soviet era.  Ukraine’s State Space Agency, however, is adamant that the Ukrainian-made RD-250s of the kind used in the July 28 test were sent to Russia for its Tsyklon space rockets by the hundreds — while Ukraine itself has been a staunch supporter of sanctions against North Korea."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451476/th-korea-vladimir-putin-behind-missile-threat

Quote The whole scenario sets the scene for World War Three as NATO would be drawn fully into the conflict.

Could this be the reason that the USA is being so tolerant of North Korea?

Trump is a lot less tolerant of "Rocket Man" than Bill Clinton and GW Bush. KJU is going to get shot down, Big League.
 

Quote fransicosan -"I wouldn't worry about it that much if I was you, toyomotor, your far down in the Southern Hemisphere, probably safe from the fallout.  And who knows, maybe it will be the final straw to get Vanuatu to go down there and be your secretary.... <grin>"
It's more excuse than I need. I want to see a Tasmanian Devil up close I want to watch 60 Minutes Australia and I want that Vegemite!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 07:38
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Cats and dogs sleeping together, oh wait!  They do!  See what I mean!!!

Shooting missiles over is an act of aggression, Japan does not like it, but they are not going to go to war about it.  It is about the equivalent of U-2 flights over Soviet Union or Cuba, and then SR-71 flights, annoying, try to shoot them down, but part of the cold war (that in the Korean Peninsula is still going on).

I wouldn't worry about it that much if I was you, toyomotor, your far down in the Southern Hemisphere, probably safe from the fallout.  And who knows, maybe it will be the final straw to get Vanuatu to go down there and be your secretary.... <grin>

You display an uncanny lack of understanding. The reason that Japan hasn't shot the missiles down, is that it can't. There are time and technological factors to be taken into account.

And there is a big difference between unarmed spy planes and missiles, which could be fitted with explosive war-heads.

And you obviously haven't noticed that Australia's Prime Minister, as usual, has offered support to the US effort against North Korea, so, at worst case scenario, our interests certainly could be interfered with by KJU.




Edited by toyomotor - 21 Sep 2017 at 07:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 14:29
franciscosan: here you go pal. This is how the kids learn geography these days. :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 01:10
Quote New York Times 25/9/17. 

North Korea Says It Has Right to Shoot Down U.S. Jets

By RICK GLADSTONE and DAVID E. SANGER 

North Korea’s foreign minister escalated the tensions with the U.S., and he called President Trump’s derogatory comments about the country and its leadership “a declaration of war.”


So, the USA flys Air Force Bombers near North Korea's border, eliciting the above response, which was predictable.


If US War Planners thought that Kim Jong-un would be intimidated by this action, they were sadly mistaken. A repeat flypast could well result in North Korea attacking the US Aircraft, although they aren't in North Korean airspace.


Should that occur, the US would have no alternative but to target North Korean Missile sites and the North Korean Airforce. It's obvious what would happen then.


It seems to me that as long as Kim Jong-un and Donald Trump keep exchanging threats, the likelihood of war increases.


On the other hand, how long can Japan and other neighbouring countries continue to live under perpetual threat from North Korea.


I read today of a closer Japan/India relationship. India has nuclear technology, 1.5 million troops with up-to-date equipment and arms, a modern Air Force and a very large Naval Force. Should India choose to join the US in war against North Korea, regardless of what Russia and China say, it would be almost like Desert Storm-over in a matter days.


I doubt if either China, which is not on friendly terms with India, nor Russia would be game to take on India, especially if allied with the US and the forces of other friendly countries.


Kim Jong-un could well be the author of his own destruction if he doesn't pull his head in.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 03:13
Lots of bluster. Hard to know if KJU means to strategically dismember himself or if it will be an instant incineration.

Keep hearing so much chatter about the launch sites on Info Wars and other alternative news sources.

No more NoKo's visiting in US, hardly knew we had them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 09:25
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Lots of bluster. Hard to know if KJU means to strategically dismember himself or if it will be an instant incineration.

Keep hearing so much chatter about the launch sites on Info Wars and other alternative news sources.

No more NoKo's visiting in US, hardly knew we had them.

Quote Lots of bluster.

Possibly, who could tell?

Quote Hard to know if KJU means to strategically dismember himself or if it will be an instant incineration.

You're joking, right? I think he wants to be regarded as a world power, and his current behaviour is his way of getting there-he thinks!!!

Quote Keep hearing so much chatter about the launch sites on Info Wars and other alternative news sources.

The US and allied forces know where the missile sites are-so one click, and they're gone.

Quote No more NoKo's visiting in US, hardly knew we had them.

Once, I didn't know the difference between Koreans and Chinese, and then a Chinese friend told me, "They eyes, more squinty."

Look more closely and you could possibly see Koreans at least. Difference between NoKo's and SoKo's-phenotypically-none.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 10:52
Perhaps, if Trump would shut the **** up and let the professionals work out the problem with North Korea, it could be mended sooner, rather than later.

Perhaps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 16:11
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Perhaps, if Trump would shut the **** up and let the professionals work out the problem with North Korea, it could be mended sooner, rather than later.

Perhaps.

LOL Wink could be but...

Look, nice flowery speeches about America needing to apologize to the WORLD didn't help. 

You said at some point, how long does Japan want to deal with KJU big mouth & rockets? paraphrasing, but good question. 

I think Trump respects his military advisers, there may be a strategy in this; yes Trump really pisses KJU off! I like that. 
How long has US military wanted to deal with NoKo? I'm guessing they have a real boner for him.

Yes, SoKo's all day long. Good food.  Lots of SoKo's and Vietnamese in Massachusetts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 23:08
The US cannot be guaranteed to know where all the missile sites are.  Especially, since North Korea has portable missile launchers.  They may know where the stationary sites are, but maybe not.  They probably don't know how hardened they are.  And so they may want to hit them with more than one wave (and even then they wouldn't be guaranteed).  The US would want to use conventional explosives, to limit our fall out (bunker busters), and even then hitting nuclear sites would probably kick up some fallout.  But, I don't think that there is any guarantee that we could get the whole thing, and even if we did, there is no guarantee that they couldn't put something back together again in quick order.  And we are not even talking about other kinds of delivery systems.

Some North Korean sites are underwater.  I don't know if that applies only to labs, or to launch sites.

If it were easy, we would have done it already, most probably.  Of course, another Asian country once upon a time thought America was soft and decided to attack. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 01:50
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Perhaps, if Trump would shut the **** up and let the professionals work out the problem with North Korea, it could be mended sooner, rather than later.

Perhaps.

LOL Wink could be but...

Look, nice flowery speeches about America needing to apologize to the WORLD didn't help. 

You said at some point, how long does Japan want to deal with KJU big mouth & rockets? paraphrasing, but good question. 

I think Trump respects his military advisers, there may be a strategy in this; yes Trump really pisses KJU off! I like that. 
How long has US military wanted to deal with NoKo? I'm guessing they have a real boner for him.

Yes, SoKo's all day long. Good food.  Lots of SoKo's and Vietnamese in Massachusetts.


 
Quote Look, nice flowery speeches about America needing to apologize to the WORLD didn't help.

I agree.

Quote You said at some point, how long does Japan want to deal with KJU big mouth & rockets? paraphrasing, but good question.

Yes, the position in Japan now is what South Korea has tolerated for over sixty years, and it should not, IMO, be tolerated much longer.

Quote I think Trump respects his military advisers, there may be a strategy in this; yes Trump really pisses KJU off! I like that.

I think the verbal retaliation only serves to bring Trump down the Kims level. It doesn't help.

Quote

How long has US military wanted to deal with NoKo?

Probably ever since July 28th 1953. As I understand it, technically NoKo is still at war with the US and SoKo because there has never been a surrender, only an Armistice. But the Korean War was UN sponsored, so I don't really understand that part.

Although war with North Korea would be catastrophic, the world can't be held to ransom in this manner, so perhaps it would be better to get it over and done with, I just don't know.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 01:55
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The US cannot be guaranteed to know where all the missile sites are.  Especially, since North Korea has portable missile launchers.  They may know where the stationary sites are, but maybe not.  They probably don't know how hardened they are.  And so they may want to hit them with more than one wave (and even then they wouldn't be guaranteed).  The US would want to use conventional explosives, to limit our fall out (bunker busters), and even then hitting nuclear sites would probably kick up some fallout.  But, I don't think that there is any guarantee that we could get the whole thing, and even if we did, there is no guarantee that they couldn't put something back together again in quick order.  And we are not even talking about other kinds of delivery systems.

Some North Korean sites are underwater.  I don't know if that applies only to labs, or to launch sites.

If it were easy, we would have done it already, most probably.  Of course, another Asian country once upon a time thought America was soft and decided to attack. 

Quote The US cannot be guaranteed to know where all the missile sites are.  Especially, since North Korea has portable missile launchers.

Yes you're quite right there. This is only one of the problems confronting US planners.

Quote If it were easy, we would have done it already, most probably.

I don't think so. I don't like the Trump public persona, but I reckon he'd rather find a diplomatic solution.

I think the US public would be wary of sending more young men and women off to war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 22:40
Technically, there has only been a cease-fire in the Korean War, not a peace treaty.  I don't know what armistice means in that context (if that is cease-fire?).

Both North Korea and Iran have made it difficult for the US to wipe out their nuclear developments, which is one reason why previous administrations have not tried for either.  (Although there has been some sabotage for Iran).  That, and for North Korea being buddy-buddy with China and Russia and within shelling distance from Seoul have definitely mattered.

Of course, overthrowing the regime in North Korea is but one step, and if you don't want to follow through then one should probably rethinking starting such a sequence.  For example, the weapon's grade fissionable material (Plutonium) needs to be secured, lest some General sell it on the black market in the free-for-all in the chaos of the collapse of the regime.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 02:16
Franciscosan

Quote Technically, there has only been a cease-fire in the Korean War, not a peace treaty.  I don't know what armistice means in that context (if that is cease-fire?).

Quote from http://int.search.myway.com/search/

ar·mi·stice
[ahr-muh-stis]
NOUN
1.
a temporary suspension of hostilities by agreement of the warring parties; truce: World War I ended with the armistice of 1918.

and

Quote From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Korean Armistice Agreement is the armistice which serves to ensure a complete cessation of hostilities of the Korean War. It was signed by U.S. Army Lieutenant General William Harrison, Jr.representing the United Nations Command (UNC), North Korean General Nam Il representing the Korean People's Army (KPA), and the Chinese People’s Volunteer Army (PVA).[1] The armistice was signed on July 27, 1953, and was designed to "insure a complete cessation of hostilities and of all acts of armed force in Korea until a final peaceful settlement is achieved."[2] No "final peaceful settlement" has been achieved. The signed armistice established the Korean Demilitarized Zone (de facto a new borderbetween the two nations), put into force a cease-fire, and finalized repatriation of prisoners of war. The Demilitarized Zone runs not far from the 38th parallel, which separated North and South Korea before the Korean War.


There having been no General Surrender by North Korea, hostilities between the North and the South have continued since 1953.


Allowing North Korea to over-run the south is out of the question.

Diplomacy hasn't worked.

Would somebody be game enough to advise Trump to fly to North Korea for a face to face?

How about inviting Kim to a neutral country for a sit down?

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Today I read that the NoKo's have teams of people with encyclopedic knowledge of every Tweet Trump ever made. :) 
Hearing about this cryptocurrency every day. I can't even say if I believe that any of it is real. Does anyone remember when things were real? I had to get these guys up on the board, look at 'em. The last time Dennis left NoKo Otto Warmbier was sent home to his family. His parents have been cleared to speak about their son and it's a horrible way to die. Torturing this kid is so vicious, I can't believe that politicians and members of the US press worry about fat boy's hurt feelings.Angry
From September 6, 2017

In an interview with the British TV show “Good Morning Britain,” the former NBA star said he was just the guy to bring peace to the Korean Peninsula, the New York Post reported. That’s because he’s not “crazy sometimes” like Trump, and he’s established a good rapport with the North Korean despot over his five visits to that foreboding, Stalinist nation.

“For me to go over there and see [Kim] as much as I have, I basically hang out with him all the time. We laugh, we sing karaoke, we do a lot of cool things together. We ride horses, we hang out, we go skiing, we hardly ever talk politics and that’s the good thing,” said Rodman, who at 6-foot-7 is a full foot taller than the Korean dictator.

“I just want to try to straighten things out for everyone to get along together,” Rodman said.

Rodman, if you’ll recall, enjoys a strange affinity with Kim, even choosing to ignore the dictator’s brutality to the people under his rule, people who know him told the Chicago Tribune. Rodman’s most recent visit to North Korea was in June. He went on behalf of PotCoin.com, a company that peddles cryptocurrency for buying and selling marijuana, the Tribune said.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 05:43
When they spotted their son, they found Otto on a stretcher, jerking violently, producing the terrifying cries.

“Otto had a shaved head, he had a feeding tube coming out of his nose, he was staring blankly into space, jerking violently,” Fred said. “He was blind. He was deaf. As we looked at him and tried to comfort him it looked like someone had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged his bottom teeth.”

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/26/otto-warmbiers-parents-open-up-about-sons-torture-by-north-korea-are-terrorists.html


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 09:04
Vanuatu

If it's thought that Denis RODMAN can get through to Kim, and smooth the waters, why not?

As for Otto Wambier, it's too late to help him now and if  he was tortured, the Kim administration should be held to account, and punished.

But, the weakness of the UN, and probably with Russian and Chinese support, that's not likely to happen.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 20:54
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

If it's thought that Denis RODMAN can get through to Kim, and smooth the waters, why not?
Right, it's only absurd when I say it.

Quote As for Otto Wambier, it's too late to help him now and if  he was tortured, the Kim administration should be held to account, and punished.
"If" ?
You doubt the sincerity of these parents? What do they have to gain by lying? Yet you swallow every spoonful of s*** served up by CNN! Wise Up!


Quote But, the weakness of the UN, and probably with Russian and Chinese support, that's not likely to happen.

This is why we need to stop treating this monster like a human being.


Edited by Vanuatu - 01 Oct 2017 at 20:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 21:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 22:39
Which monster?  Kim Jong Un, Dennis Rodman, or Donald Trump???Confused  

I heard in passing that the coroner for Otto Warmbier said that he was not tortured.  His teeth could have been messed up when they put a feeding tube down his throat and he had a spasm.  I don't know what a medical definition of torture is, and I don't really want to know.  My heart goes out to Otto's parents and friends.

My guess is that Otto was callously struck and that, to the surprise and dismay of his tormentors caused brain injury.  So they artificially kept him "alive" until they could send him home.  but really, he was braindead in North Korea because a callous action of some stupid guard.  They had no problem tormenting him, but probably did not want to kill him.  They wouldn't want to kill him, not because they have any compassion, but because of the potential international, and probably personal consequences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 22:58
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Which monster?  Kim Jong Un, Dennis Rodman, or Donald Trump???Confused  

I heard in passing that the coroner for Otto Warmbier said that he was not tortured.  His teeth could have been messed up when they put a feeding tube down his throat and he had a spasm.  I don't know what a medical definition of torture is, and I don't really want to know.  My heart goes out to Otto's parents and friends.

My guess is that Otto was callously struck and that, to the surprise and dismay of his tormentors caused brain injury.  So they artificially kept him "alive" until they could send him home.  but really, he was braindead in North Korea because a callous action of some stupid guard.  They had no problem tormenting him, but probably did not want to kill him.  They wouldn't want to kill him, not because they have any compassion, but because of the potential international, and probably personal consequences.

The monster that I choose. 
Well since you heard some crap in passing then I'll just have to back right off.

His feeding tube was in his nose. I worked in the health care field. Feeding tubes do not rearrange your teeth. Not a young man after 17 months at MOST.

Look they sentenced him to 15 years in prison, they didn't care if he died. If you can't accept his parents observations as meaningful and representative of evidence that their son was tortured, then how do you you justify intellectually that his hellish physical state was brought on by the actions of a callous guard? He was beaten senseless, literally!

Why do Australians keep coming here? Don't they know they will be killed by police?
Well if they want to take risk like that...shouldn't they know better?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 23:53
Cases in Syria, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq, when they tortured you, they had a doctor there to make sure that things didn't go too far (as in kill you).  I am sure that North Korea has competent torturers, and I doubt that whomever abused and tormented Otto Warmbier were "competent" in that sense.  It is no virtue to them, but I tend to think it was nasty and brutish guards instead of orders from high above that caused Warmbier's injuries.  Were they sadistic? probably.  In fact, I would not be surprised if Otto was fatally injured soon after his imprisonment, and so they kept him "alive" to heal up superficial wounds and bruises, until he was more "presentable," but still a vegetable, and then released him.

We had a debate 10-14 years ago with the "war on terror" about what constituted torture.  But what some people consider torture, others did not, debating it medically, morally, and legally.  I think that if you have to argue that something is not torture, well you are probably already morally on thin ice.  But there was a reason for the debate, the question of what interrogation techniques are legitimate, and what are beyond the pale.  But, Warmbier was not exposed to interrogation techniques, he was probably more like a mouse, played with by a cat.  IF they had tortured him (and done it 'right'), they would have had a doctor there to make sure they didn't go too far.  No, I think Warmbier was abused and tormented by sadists, if you want to call that torture, then fine.  But, torture has a purpose, and I don't think that what they did had any particular purpose, other than the guards' sadistic pleasure.  My apologies to Warmer's parents, but I doubt they personally have the medical background to accurately judge whether he was tortured.  To me, I think that a coroner's report weighs more than the grief of his parents as far as that kind of judgment is concerned.  But, I admit I haven't read the coroner's report, but have just overheard a snippet on TV or radio.  Furthermore, I admit that I have not done much homework on the issue, so that if anyone wants to, anyone can investigate what I consider the weakest link in my argument, not that I "doubt" the word of grieving parents, but that I admit, I haven't investigated further the coroner.  The coroner has a medical and probably a legal knowledge of what torture entails, I trust that over a parent's emotional response as far as what should influence public policy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 00:56
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Cases in Syria, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq, when they tortured you, they had a doctor there to make sure that things didn't go too far (as in kill you).  I am sure that North Korea has competent torturers, and I doubt that whomever abused and tormented Otto Warmbier were "competent" in that sense.  It is no virtue to them, but I tend to think it was nasty and brutish guards instead of orders from high above that caused Warmbier's injuries.  Were they sadistic? probably.  In fact, I would not be surprised if Otto was fatally injured soon after his imprisonment, and so they kept him "alive" to heal up superficial wounds and bruises, until he was more "presentable," but still a vegetable, and then released him.

We had a debate 10-14 years ago with the "war on terror" about what constituted torture.  But what some people consider torture, others did not, debating it medically, morally, and legally.  I think that if you have to argue that something is not torture, well you are probably already morally on thin ice.  But there was a reason for the debate, the question of what interrogation techniques are legitimate, and what are beyond the pale.  But, Warmbier was not exposed to interrogation techniques, he was probably more like a mouse, played with by a cat.  IF they had tortured him (and done it 'right'), they would have had a doctor there to make sure they didn't go too far.  No, I think Warmbier was abused and tormented by sadists, if you want to call that torture, then fine.  But, torture has a purpose, and I don't think that what they did had any particular purpose, other than the guards' sadistic pleasure.  My apologies to Warmer's parents, but I doubt they personally have the medical background to accurately judge whether he was tortured.

Ken Burns film on Vietnam is airing on PBS now. One of the observations made after the war by people in high political office or military experts from the time, comment on reasons for the unending poor choices by McNamara, Westmoreland & the Johnson administration. More than one of them points out the foolish notion that what was logical and sensible to Johnson would never been understood by Ho Chi Min or Ngo Dhn Diem or Nyguen Ca Ky in the same way. Johnson was never able to out think the Viet Mihn or Viet Cong or even the South Vietnamese, all ideas were completely lost in translation.
 
Just an aside, yes Vietnamese tortured to extract information but they also kept torturing and keeping prisoners long after the war, right? Why? What were they going to get out of it? I say its was hate fueled commitment to make American suffer. Same as fat little rocket man.

Quote To me, I think that a coroner's report weighs more than the grief of his parents as far as that kind of judgment is concerned.  But, I admit I haven't read the coroner's report, but have just overheard a snippet on TV or radio.  Furthermore, I admit that I have not done much homework on the issue, so that if anyone wants to, anyone can investigate what I consider the weakest link in my argument, not that I "doubt" the word of grieving parents, but that I admit, I haven't investigated further the coroner.  The coroner has a medical and probably a legal knowledge of what torture entails, I trust that over a parent's emotional response as far as what should influence public policy.

The coroner barely indicates cause of death. Is he a student? 
So the mysterious oxygen deprivation that caused his blindness, deafness and ultimately his death , was just too long ago to be identified? B***S*** 
Emotional or not they were not the only people to see Otto deaf, blind, violently jerking his body and screaming. Why would you belittle these parents? This is sickening I'm really disgusted by jackass celebrities and those who would rub salt into the wounds of this family and a whole community that loved this guy.  Now when foreigners come here and get wasted, I'm done giving a s***.


Edited by Vanuatu - 02 Oct 2017 at 01:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 01:00
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Quote "If" ?
You doubt the sincerity of these parents? What do they have to gain by lying? Yet you swallow every spoonful of s*** served up by CNN! Wise Up!

No, you misunderstand me. I was referring to the Coroners verdict that there was no evidence of his being tortured. But this was only an external examination. Is there a result yet on the full Post Mortem?

Of course I don't doubt the sincerity of his parents.

Chill out!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 01:24
An Ohio coroner who examined the body of 22-year-old University of Virginia student Otto Warmbier says he died from a lack of oxygen and blood to his brain, but she can't determine how the injury occurred.

I guess franciscosan's brilliant torturers would know how to hide traces of their handy work, since they never intended him to die. They just extracted state secrets out of a high school kid.

Or maybe it was just hate fueled cruelty to punish an American. What logic do you apply to a regime that starves, murders and tortures its OWN people? 
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