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Trump v Mueller

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    Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 12:54
Latest press releases reveal that President Trump is still focused on means by which he can fire Robert Mueller, Special Counsel investigating Trump's connections to Russia and allied matters.

It's being reported that up to 300,000 people are poised to protest should he take that course, it wouldn't surprise me if that figure increased by a factor of 10 to 3,000,000.

Many electors appear to have realised that they've uncaged a beast, one who is a congenital liar; who hasn't a clue how government works; one who ostracises long term friends and international partners; one who won't accept sound advice from his highly paid staff; and one who can't make up his mind on important issues-publicising his intentions one day, only to change his mind days later.

The fact that he's fired so many important and knowledgeable people in his administration, only to replace them with clones of himself is cause of great concern to all in sundry.

Little does he seem to realise that people like Kim Jong Un, Xi Jinping and Vladimire Putin are not fools like him, and will not bow to his blustering bully boy tactics. The latter with the potential to start WWIII.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 15:41
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Latest press releases reveal that President Trump is still focused on means by which he can fire Robert Mueller, Special Counsel investigating Trump's connections to Russia and allied matters.

It's being reported that up to 300,000 people are poised to protest should he take that course, it wouldn't surprise me if that figure increased by a factor of 10 to 3,000,000.
How about a link to the information you are reporting please? Or even the network name?

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Many electors appear to have realised that they've uncaged a beast, one who is a congenital liar; who hasn't a clue how government works; one who ostracises long term friends and international partners; one who won't accept sound advice from his highly paid staff; and one who can't make up his mind on important issues-publicising his intentions one day, only to change his mind days later.
Trump has 40% approval rating that Rasmussen they nailed the election results by a tenth of a  point.
But I'm sure the correspondents at Certainly Not News left that bit out of their 'reports.'

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

The fact that he's fired so many important and knowledgeable people in his administration, only to replace them with clones of himself is cause of great concern to all in sundry.
Who is his clone? You have no names, you are listening to fools. Your perogative.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Little does he seem to realise that people like Kim Jong Un, Xi Jinping and Vladimire Putin are not fools like him, and will not bow to his blustering bully boy tactics. The latter with the potential to start WWIII.
You might just want to hold that thought. They will be serving crow in the lounge promptly at 8.


Edited by Vanuatu - 19 Apr 2018 at 15:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 23:53
Why, toyomotor, are you making it a personal rivalry "Trump v. Mueller."?  Isn't that what Donald Trump wants to do, make it personally all about him, instead of just enforcing the law?  I think that what we should wish for is for Mueller to do his job, wherever that may lead.  If Trump dismisses him, then it may be harder to declare Trump guilty of nefarious doings, but it will also make it impossible for Mueller to exonerate him, which at least theoretically is one possibility of the conclusion of the investigation.

It is not possible to clone Donald Trump, he is unique, but the fact he exists means he is not unique enough;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2018 at 00:38
Quote Why, toyomotor, are you making it a personal rivalry "Trump v. Mueller."?

I'm not making it personal. The way that I phrased that was simply to indicate what the post was about.

OK, if you like, does the USA v Trump sound better?

Phrase it how you like, it's simply how it is, Mueller investigating Trump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2018 at 05:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Why, toyomotor, are you making it a personal rivalry "Trump v. Mueller."?  Isn't that what Donald Trump wants to do, make it personally all about him, instead of just enforcing the law?  I think that what we should wish for is for Mueller to do his job,
Yes according to James Comey, Mueller really ought to know after a year if he has anything, then go ahead and write his conclusion, you know before he interviews the target, subject and witnesses. 

The "TARGET" isn't Trump but it might have been if Mueller had found anything during his desperate raid on the "Subject" Cohen. And if I remember correctly, Trump's lawyer can act as his attorney and as a witness. Or is that "Clinton Privilege?"

Mueller can continue to troll for leaks, lies and maybe an invented crisis. This will serve as a shining object to keep impostor journalists busy in between Stormy Daniels updates. 

At a later point, Comey wrote that Trump told him directly, "I need loyalty."

"I replied that he would always get honesty from me," said Comey. "[Trump] paused and said that's what he wants, 'honest loyalty.' I replied, 'you will get that from me.'"

"It is possible we understood that phrase differently," Comey added as a parenthetical, "but I chose to understand it as consistent with what I had said throughout the conversation: I will serve the President with loyalty to the office, the country, and the truth. I decided it would not be productive to push the subject further." 

SUCH COURAGE!Thumbs Down

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

wherever that may lead.  If Trump dismisses him,
Only the faux reportage have been saying this and for months. Pittsburgh police just love to prepare for things that may never happen. Also have no explanation for believing Trump is trying to fire Mueller.
Jeff Sessions could fire Mueller any time at all, just another YES MAN right? Democrats tried to get congressional pampering for Mueller, HA!
 

"I’m the one who decides what [legislation] we take to the floor," McConnell said. "That's my responsibility as the majority leader. We’ll not be having this on the floor of the Senate."

But despite Trump and McConnell's protests, liberal groups aren't the only ones riling up the base. Last week, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., sent out an email titled “Mueller FIRED” that asked people to donate to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee amid speculations that Trump may ax Mueller in retaliation for the FBI raid on Trump's lawyer, Michael Cohen.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

then it may be harder to declare Trump guilty of nefarious doings, but it will also make it impossible for Mueller to exonerate him, which at least theoretically is one possibility of the conclusion of the investigation.

Who's going to exonerate Mueller? FBI morale is in the gutter. 

Robert Mueller, the special counsel leading the FBI's Russia investigation.Alex Wong/Getty Images

  • A spokesman for the office of the special counsel Robert Mueller as said "many" stories about his investigation "have been inaccurate."
  • It was an unusual piece of pushback from an office that tends to keep quiet.
  • The progress of Mueller's investigation into Russia and the Trump campaign is a source of fascination for many news outlets.
  • Many stories are based on leaks from anonymous figures said to have knowledge of the investigation, which are inherently difficult to verify.
  • http://www.businessinsider.com/robert-mueller-warns-many-stories-on-trump-investigation-not-true-2018-4


Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

It is not possible to clone Donald Trump, he is unique, but the fact he exists means he is not unique enough;)
Over my head Genius.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2018 at 22:56
Donald Trump is a whiner, whereas Mueller is closed mouth.
I prefer Mueller any day.  Trump was a whiner before he was
president, armed with high priced lawyers to bully people around,
and he will be whiner until the day he dies.

I would say that they broke the mold after making Donald Trump, and they 
should have broken the mold before they made him (or maybe they did, and
used it anyway, might explain a few things), hence the statement the
he is not unique enough.  Okay, bad joke.  I do like the fact that President
Trump is frustrating for political correctness, and I don't believe that he
is racist.  He is equal opportunity as far as screwing people over for a buck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 05:07
I've just realised that I erred with the title of this topic, it should have been Mueller v Trump.

Sorry about that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2018 at 01:10
No I think that you had it right the first time.  Most legal cases, the accused is receiving, and has to wait before responding.  President Trump however is aggressive, pre-emptive.  He believe that the best defense is a good offense, and he is very offensive.  Whether it is denouncing the FBI or threatening to sue those who accuse him of sexual harassment.  Plus, Trump always puts himself first.  So, I think you had it right, "Trump v. Mueller," although Mueller is special prosecutor, and so it would probably be "Trump vs. United States."  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2018 at 06:02
From https://www.axios.com/trump-russia-mueller-investigation-michael-cohen-paul-manafort-bcfe40c6-7592-4347-a6be-20ff562058f0.html

Quote One thing is true of all major political scandals: What we know in the moment is but a tiny, obscured, partial view of the full story later revealed by investigators.

Why it matters: That’s what makes the Trump-Russia drama all the more remarkable. Forget all we don’t know. The known facts that even Trump’s closest friends don’t deny tell a damning tale that would sink most leaders. 

Here's a guide that Jim VandeHei and I put together to the known knowns of Russia:
  • We know Paul Manafort, former Trump campaign chair, has been indicted on 32 countsincluding conspiracy and money laundering. We know he made millions off shady Russians and changed the Republican platform to the benefit of Russia. 
  • We know that the U.S. intelligence community concluded, in a report released in January 2017, that Russian President Vladimir Putin “ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election,” to “denigrate” Hillary Clinton and with “a clear preference for ... Trump.”
  • We know that in May 2016, Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos told an Australian diplomat Russia had political dirt on Hillary. "About three weeks earlier," according to the N.Y. Times, "Papadopoulos had been told that Moscow had thousands of emails that would embarrass Mrs. Clinton."
  • We know that in June 2016, Trump’s closest aides and family members met at Trump Tower with a shady group of Russians who claimed to have dirt on Hillary. The meeting was billed as"part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump."
  • We know the Russian lawyer who helped set it up concealed her close ties to Putin government.
  • We know that in July 2016, Trump said: "“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 [Hillary] emails that are missing,” and urged their publication.
  • We know that on Air Force One a year later, Trump helped his son, Don Jr., prepare a misleading statement about the meeting. We know top aides freaked out about this. 
  • We know Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting.
  • We know Michael Flynn, former national security adviser and close campaign aide, lied to Vice President Pence and FBI about his Russia-related chats. We know he’s now cooperating with special counsel Robert Mueller. We know Trump initially tried to protect Flynn with loyalty and fervency rarely shown by Trump to others. 
  • We know that during the transition, Jared Kushner spoke with the Russian ambassador "about establishing a secret communications channel between the Trump transition team and Moscow." We know Kushner omitted previous contacts with Russians on his disclosure forms. 
  • We know Trump initially lied about why he fired James Comey, later admitting he was canned because of the “Russia thing.” 
  • We know Michael Cohen was a close adviser and lawyer, the fixer and secret-keeper. We know Trump seethed when the FBI raided Cohen's office.
  • We know that in January 2016, just before Republicans began voting, Michael Cohen tried to restart a Trump Tower project in Moscow.
  • We know Mueller questioned a Russian oligarch tied to a firm that made payments to Cohen, who paid off a porn star who allegedly had an affair with Trump. [Updated]
  • We know that oligarch was a bad enough dude that the Trump administration sanctioned him.

Be smart: The undisputed known knowns about Trump, Russia and his associates are damning and possibly actionable. But the known unknowns of how much more Robert Mueller knows that is publicly unknown is what spooks Trump allies most. 

  • Remember: No one in the media saw Mueller’s indictments of Russian oligarchs coming until the second they were announced, and no one knew until this week that Mueller’s team questioned AT&T five months ago about its payments to Cohen.
  • Mueller has every incentive to keep the public and Trump himself in suspense.
I decided to post this article in full because, if it's at all accurate, the US President and his team look certain to be in a great deal of trouble.

But, do we know all of these things, or are they the prognostications of a journalist?

The web site AXIOS provides commentary which I thought would be fair and unbiased, but of course I have no way of knowing for sure.


Edited by toyomotor - 14 May 2018 at 06:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2018 at 13:47
Tell Jim Van Helsing to go back to chasing vampires!
Here's what I know, It's questionable whether the Special Counsel, otherwise known as Mueller is operating within parameters that are to be adhered to not supplemented with obstruction charges when
"COLLUSION" turned out NOT to be a "THING."
Mueller does not have unfettered power and he is limited to the scope he himself sett forward and to the SCounsel purview as the Judge sees it.
Lets see what happens when the microscope gets turned on to the FBI. Comey admits that Mike Flynn didn't lie to the FBI, which was the charge against him officially. What else is the Counsel and the Justice Dept lying about?


Federal judge rightly rebukes Mueller for questionable tactics
By Alan Dershowitz, opinion contributor — 05/07/18 11:30 AM EDT
6,505
The views expressed by contributors are their own and not the view of The Hill

This is what Judge T.S. Ellis III said at a hearing Friday: “You don’t really care about Mr. Manafort’s bank fraud … What you really care about is what information Mr. Manafort could give you that would reflect on Mr. Trump or lead to his prosecution or impeachment.”

http://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/386508-federal-judge-rightly-rebukes-mueller-for-questionable-tactics
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 01:45
Collusion is a term the media uses to avoid saying "alleged" all the time.  If they said "conspiracy" they would have to say "alleged conspiracy" because the Trump campaign (or individuals therein) have not been convicted of conspiracy, etc.  yet.

I think that Mueller is a lot more familiar with the law than Trump's fan club is, however Mueller does not explain what he does (no leaks), and Trump and his fan club are pumping out the propaganda all day long.  As far as propaganda is concerned, Trump is winning the argument.  The question is whether propaganda or legal procedure will win the day.  The question is will people buy into the Trumpian propaganda, before Mueller is done, pre-empting the legal system process.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 04:02
So you are all for the media using an inappropriate term bc it's easier for them?
Is that correct? I'm not saying it, you seem to be.
Is that like not correcting people for mispronunciation or waking them from a nap while they are in class at school? Academics in colleges across the country are driving left leaning students who value Freedom of Speech to conservative groups for guidance in navigating dissenting opinions within their groups. No opposing views are discussed. They are tired of getting shut down at meetings- "IMPEACH FOWTEY-FIIII"- the tolerant left won't tolerate any dissent from Bernie Sanders inspired socialism, which actually exists already we just call it welfare and food stamps.


Judge T.S. Ellis III gave Mueller 2 weeks to produce the original evidence for the FISA warrant. Low and behold no indictment of Trump as announced by Mueller himself.
Why would Mueller produce evidence for the FISA warrant? Ha! Then all the evidence that the DOJ,(FISA court) and DNC colluded to use to discredit this presidency amounts to a take down of a political opponent. The only basis for the FISA warrant was DNC funded anonymous source laden dossier. This is where Obama's depleted DNC and Hillary colluded with the Russians to get Trump shizzle. Ha! Alan Dershowitz doesn't lie to you!
Propaganda, hmm Misinformation? Disinformation? Two horny FBI agents? Secret Weapon? Too scary for me, glad they were demoted and one has resigned.


Next Target up- one Roger Stone who maybe had dinner with a guy who knew Julian Assange.

Edited by Vanuatu - 18 May 2018 at 04:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2018 at 21:11
collusion is an appropriated term, it allows media to talk about it without saying "alleged" all the time.  It means something in English language but not in legal speak.

Well good! that means your idol is off-the-hook (at least as far as that goes), according to you.  
(I think that I understood _that_much_ from what you said.)

Alan Dershowitz does not say anything to me, I guess I have been dropped from his Christmas card list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 02:06
Quote collusion is an appropriated term, it allows media to talk about it without saying "alleged" all the time.  It means something in English language but not in legal speak.

How do you work that out?

Quote https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collusion:
 secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose. 

And conspiracy means almost the exact same thing. 

The word "collusion" definately does have a meaning at law.

It doesn't equate to a antonym for alleged either.

Read your dictionary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 06:43
I don't think you understand toyomotor.
If you accuse someone of a conspiracy, they can sue you for slander, unless they have been convicted of conspiracy.  You can use the term "alleged" conspiracy, and legally (for slander purposes) you are okay.  Or you can say that they are guilty of collusion, which as former FBI Director James Comey will point out, does not mean anything under the Federal legal code.  Therefore, as a news outlet, you can say someone "colluded" and not be sued for slander.  There may be a dictionary definition of collusion, that makes it a synonym of conspiracy.  But, the legal code, including slander laws, does not pay attention to that.  A conspiracy charge is what a citizen has to worry about (if they do that kind of thing, not a "collusion" charge.
Now what "collusion" means in Australian or British jurisprudence, I have no idea.  But, you can not be convicted of "collusion" in the United States, it is _not_ a legal term.  You are barking up the wrong tree.


Edited by franciscosan - 22 May 2018 at 06:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 07:04
Franciscosan

No, it's you who don't understand, and I'm talking from a the position of more than 30 years law enforcement.

If you claim that someone has conspired,  or colluded with someone else to do some unlawful act, unless it can be proven to be true, you may be sued for Defamation (or libel).

It may be be that US law doesn't use the term "collusion", but the principle remains the same.

You're simply playing semantics. Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2018 at 18:24
No, James Comey and others are "playing at semantics," according to you.

I am merely agreeing with James Comey on this issue.  When asked in a town hall meeting whether he thought the Trump campaign had colluded, he said that collusion is not against the law.  He did not say "yes," or "no," he said it is not against the law.  I am not a lawyer, but from what I hear over here is that "collusion" is not part of the American legal jargon, which is why the press feel free to use it in such a fashion.  Donald Trump is quick to threaten slander lawsuits on other issues (sexual harassment allegations), why would he not threaten it on this issue as well, if he thought he could?

Semantics matters for lawyers, take Bill Clinton saying, "It depends on what you mean by "is."

I am not trying to be difficult, I am just saying that legally, accusing the Trump campaign of "collusion" is a non-starter.  Journalistically it has all kinds of connotations, legally however you have to discuss "conspiracy" in order to get to the letter of the law.  Or so I suspect.  You might be right about "the spirit of the law," but semantically in American legalese they are not identical, for one is also a technical legal term, whereas the other is not.  Now is what James Comey saying a dodge?  Sure.  But, is it one he can take when people try to pin him down on whether the Trump campaign (or Trump) engaged in illegal shenanigans?  You bet ya.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 02:03
Quote https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/collusion/
Collusion occurs when two persons or representatives of an entity or organization make an agreement to deceive or mislead another. Such agreements are usually secretive, and involve fraud or gaining an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or others with whom they are negotiating. The collusion, therefore, makes the bargaining process inherently unfair. Collusion can involve price or wage fixing, kickbacks, or misrepresenting the independence of the relationship between the colluding parties.

Well, you're wrong again.

The above definition is the US legal definition of "collusion", and as it can also be conspiracy,
Quote

Conspiracy

An agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal act, along with an intent to achieve the agreement's goal.  Most U.S. jurisdictions also require an overt act toward furthering the agreement.  An overt act is a statutory requirement, not a constitutional one. See Whitfield v. United States, 453 U.S. 209 (2005). The illegal act is the conspiracy's "target offense."


I suggest that you do some research before continuing this conversation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 04:49
AM I wrong about what James Comey said at the town hall meeting??

The town hall was put on by CNN, I imagine it is on youtube.  If you think he is wrong, then I suggest you argue with him, or other experts on CNN.  I am done.  "I suggest that you do some research," but I will not continue on this point.  I am merely accepting certain experts who ought to know, and which you are not familiar with.  In my view, you are advocating that you have greater legal knowledge of American jurisprudence than the former head of the FBI.  I don't care if you think I am wrong, I do think that it is presumptuous of you to think that you are right, and that Comey is wrong.  Of course, I could be wrong about Comey (but I am not), but you have not checked out what he (and other CNN experts) has said.  Your argument is not with me, I am just trying to convey to you what the American media is saying.

Again, I am done on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 2 hours 51 minutes ago at 07:59
Not so fast mi amigo.

I've simply quoted you passages from US Law. If you or anyone else wants to interpret what it says differently, that's your entitlement, but I think that the Supreme Court would overrule you.

I don't know what Comey said, so I won't buy into that.
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