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Turkic words for sheep

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    Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 04:21
Ok, I am baffled by what is probably a weird coincidence...

Does anybody know where the Turkish & Azeri word for sheep 'koyun' come from? Is it true that it exists in Uygur texts as koyn? It seems to be a problematic word among Turkologists since they assume that Old Turkish göyun comes from kön 'to burn', which makes no semantic connection to sheep. If anyone knows what the word for sheep is in other Turkic languages, let me know and I have a surprise in the end of the day.....Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 23:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 01:44
Thank you very much Erkut!
It was a really useful tool. Obviously, koyun has a Turkic root. I heard it yesterday and I had this thought it might be a native Anatolian word, since koion (𐊽o𐊹o𐊵) in Carian meant sheep. If a glide is added and with some phonetic changes, koion can very easily become koyun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 05:45
This is an online etymological dictionary for Anatolian Turkish. Site is only in Turkish though. But may help in future... The writer of dictionary is Sevan Nişanyan, a Turkish citizen from Armenian etnicity. I can say he is one of bests in Turkish etymology :)

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/

Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 06 Jan 2012 at 16:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2012 at 12:43
In Azerbaijani Turkish it is actually pronounced as "Goyun-Qoyun", Q are pronounced as G in Azeri Turkish. Same in Turkmen language where it is pronounced as Goyun.








Edited by Qaradağlı - 06 Jan 2012 at 12:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 04:02
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

This is an online etymological dictionary for Anatolian Turkish. Site is only in Turkish though. But may help in future... The writer of dictionary is Sevan Nişanyan, a Turkish citizen from Armenian etnicity. I can say he is one of bests in Turkish etymology :)

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/


This was indeed a really good dictionary. It is exactly what you expect to see if you want some more other than etymology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 08:37
Originally posted by Qaradağlı Qaradağlı wrote:

In Azerbaijani Turkish it is actually pronounced as "Goyun-Qoyun", Q are pronounced as G in Azeri Turkish. Same in Turkmen language where it is pronounced as Goyun.

This sounds like it could be an effect of the Iraqi Arabic shift from q->g. Most Turkomen are also Arabic speakers I think. 

Qoyun would probably be the correct pronunciation, as modern Tukey's Turkish adopted a writing system whereby q (ق) in Ottoman Turkish was replaced with k in spelling.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 13:13
By Turkmen I meant Turkmenistan.

Turkmens of Iraq are actually Azerbaijanis, at least their language is. No difference other than Arabic influence in their pronunciation.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 13:42
Either that or Azerbaijanis are actually Turkomen who stripped most of the Arabic influence from their pronunciation in the early 20th. century Smile

According to Turkomen I know, they claim to speak Ottoman Turkish, the only remaining speakers of it, who didn't de-Arabise their language during the disintegration of the Ottoman state.

Makes more sense, considering that Iraq and Azerbaijan were Ottoman territories, although Azerbaijan was lost to the Safawids, I don't think that would've resulted in any de-Arabisation of the language.




Edited by Mukarrib - 07 Jan 2012 at 13:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2012 at 02:14
Originally posted by Mukarrib Mukarrib wrote:

Either that or Azerbaijanis are actually Turkomen who stripped most of the Arabic influence from their pronunciation in the early 20th. century Smile

According to Turkomen I know, they claim to speak Ottoman Turkish, the only remaining speakers of it, who didn't de-Arabise their language during the disintegration of the Ottoman state.

Makes more sense, considering that Iraq and Azerbaijan were Ottoman territories, although Azerbaijan was lost to the Safawids, I don't think that would've resulted in any de-Arabisation of the language.



"Azerbaijanis are actually Turkomen"

That's correct. Turkoman were the common name of Oghuz Turks in middle-east (including Azerbaijan and Anatolia).

I don't know what they claim, but their language are considered and actually is a dialect of Azerbaijani Turkish. Yes they were also heavily influenced by Ottomans (unlike Azerbaijan) but still their language are not that of Ottoman Turkish.

Are you from Iraq? Have you heard of Fuzuli? He was from Iraq. He is considered as the most important figure of Azerbaijani literature.









Edited by Qaradağlı - 08 Jan 2012 at 02:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2012 at 08:58
According to wikipedia:

Language

The dialect spoken by most Iraqi Turkmens is considered either South Azeri or intermediate between that and Anatolian Turkish, and is close to the dialects of Diyarbakır andUrfa in south-eastern TurkeyArabic and Kurdish are the native language of some members of the Iraqi Turkmen community.

Anatolian Turkish has long been the prestige dialect among Iraqi Turkmen and has exerted a profound historical influence on their dialect, to the extent that Iraqi Turkmen grammar differs sharply from that of other varieties of Azeri. Under the 1925 constitution, the use of Anatolian Turkish in schools, government offices and the media was allowed. Modern Turkish influence remained strong until the Arabic language became the new official language in the 1930s, and a degree of Turkmen–Turkish diglossia is still observable. Restrictions on the Turkish language began in 1972 and intensified under Saddam Hussein's regime. Currently, Anatolian Turkish is used as the formal written language. In 1997, the Iraqi Turkoman Congress adopted a Declaration of Principles, Article Three of which states the following:

The official written language of the Turkmans is Istanbul Turkish, and its alphabet is the new Latin alphabet.

The Iraqi Turkmen dialect is often called "Turkoman", "Turkmenelian" or "Turkmen", but should not be confused with the Turkmen language spoken in Turkmenistan.


So it sounds like originally it was more closely related to Azeri, but has become closer to Anatolian Turkish (Ottoman Turkish pre-1924) over time. It also says in the article that most Turkomen in Iraq were settled there by Sultan Suleyman al-Kanuni and that they came from Anatolia. Although some Turkomen did already exist there since Abbasid & Saljuq times.


I am not from Iraq, and haven't heard of Fuzuli.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2012 at 11:48
No mate, believe me there is no need for wikipedia because I know how it actually is. It is no different than our language, except the Arabic influence like mentioned.

But yes they were/are associated with Ottomans/Turkey, no doubt about that.

About the historical population of Oghuz Turks in Iraq, it dates back to Seljuqs and their sucessors.


Edited by Qaradağlı - 08 Jan 2012 at 12:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2012 at 12:08
The wikipedia article validates your point, I was merely posting it to expand on what's been said.

Regarding Ottoman Turkish and its relation to modern Anatolian Turkish, its vocabulary was very different yes, but the language itself was still a form of Turkish. It did begin to use a lot of Persian phrasal constructs though, but these are even familiar in many cases to modern Anatolian Turkish speakers, as they could not fully be expunged from the language.

I guess it's similar, though not as advanced, to the difference between German and English. English is a Germanic language, but it has been heavily affected by the Romance languages. Borrowings do not change the language necessarily, as they can always be replaced anyway. Only if the syntax and grammar become heavily changed does the language really change. All languages have tons of loanwords. Even modern Turkish still has thousands of Arabic loanwords.
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