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Two Strategies of the Human Male

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    Posted: 24 May 2015 at 00:14
Huge amounts have been written about human male behaviour, but I don't think anyone has believed that there are two completely distinct strategies for reproductive success arising at different times in prehistory. First, strategy a: Aggression, bash your opponent senseless and grab the female, extremely ancient, predating mammals. Secondly, strategy b: Brotherhood, team up with your friend to bash your opponent and/or share the female with him, if necessary holding her down, much more recent,dating from advanced primates. Not very politically correct I'll grant you, but it does explain a lot about the behaviour of the human male! Most men seem to be pre-programmed with a mixture of the two. Of course such behaviours are moderated by super-ego based altruism and the degree of female receptiveness, but you have to admit that guys tend to fall predominantly into one group or the other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 18:01
You're right, I don't believe it.  Look at how sensitive and graceful cave painting is, Lascaux, Alta Mira, etc.  Chesterton in his "Everlasting Man" disputes this brute image of "cave men."  I don't feel like I have to admit anything of the sort. <grin>  You might try to make your case better, or revise your position.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 00:11
An indirect smack in the face.  A sign of evolutionized behavior of the present age.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 02:00


Maybe you should stop dating bikers from Texas.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Viewpoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 08:53
That's an interesting comment Vanuatu, I've never been to Texas in my life and I haven't dated any bikers because I am male and straight. You automatically assumed that I was critical of the human male; no, these are just observations about "pre-programming" with no moral judgement. I repeat that these characteristics are moderated by altruism in the modern world, and that if a female is receptive there is no need to resort to such tactics. Nevertheless, I believe that they are both very ancient traits in human terms, but so too may be mildness and gentleness, otherwise how do you account for the differing behaviour of chimps and bonobos?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 12:51
Hey Viewpoint, that's interesting that you assumed that, I think you a male. Even boys get tag teamed. I just thought you were being provocative.

Modern humans are not bonobos or chimps. Last time I saw two humans openly resolve conflict with oral sex was on MSNBC.

Even in terms of primates, I think youre incorrect. Its a one male dominant trait for apes impregnating as many females as possible. But don't take my word for it-Diane Fossy, Bruce M. Knauft, Jane Goodall...

Please do provide some scholarship if you want to have a serious discussion. The drive to reproduce is not altruism, helping non kin to survive is altruism.

The Texas biker joke is funny only if you are aware of current events.
Sorry to any bikers who may have taken offense.

Edited by Vanuatu - 27 May 2015 at 18:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2015 at 00:05
I think that if you just looked at animals (including chimpanzees and bonobos), you would never have imagined that humans could develop, even the early homo sapiens.  Even the neanderthals were fairly sophisticated in their culture, (but they probably didn't have man's best friend, the dog).

A long time ago, there was an article in Discovery(?) that talked about how women's fertility wasn't obvious, (they don't go into 'heat'), and so that meant that men had to stick around and be there all the time, thus forming the basics for a family.

For reproduction, it is not enough to copulate, you basically have to copulate at the right time.  That may be most of the time, but you have to keep rival males away, which means you have to be there much of the time.

I'm not sure the Texas biker joke is funny _even_if_ you are aware of current events<grin>.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2015 at 00:15
"Forgive me father for I am a worm."
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2015 at 00:22

Important to note Fransicosan, Bonobos rarely complete the act, its a more like a reassuring hug, female need not be in estrus.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2015 at 20:14
Viewpoint, what do you mean by pre-programming, for that matter, what do you mean by programming?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2015 at 04:02
Think he means Behavioral Plasticity.
There are stressors and conditions that make an individual behave in a particular way. Social conditions, competition. There is Paleo/Neolithic art that represents (seems to) male / female embrace and then little 'un.
There are notions about why babies and sex happen among some tribal populations that are not exactly sperm + egg = baby; but the connection is recognized.
Wonder why so many wise, wise people in modern world have unplanned pregnancy.

Edited by Vanuatu - 29 May 2015 at 04:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2015 at 04:11
http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/fall.htm#Anchor-Paleolithic-14210


Three aspects of the feminine at Catal Huyuk: Left: The hieros gamos or sacred sexual union, leading to progeny. The hieros gamos continued in nymphete form with Inanna in Sumeria and Ishtar in Babylon, but Yahweh, Zeus, Enki and Indra assumed patriarchal dominion from Greece to Vedic India. Centre: The fecund fat Goddess of plenty. Right: Temple with portal surmounted by a pregnant 'goddess'. Houses are also arranged with the maternal bed oriented towards the central temples while the male sleeping platforms are arranged haphazardly. Motifs of bull's horns and headless corpses picked by vultures with human skulls also pervade the temples (Melaart R467, Eisler R183)
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2015 at 05:49
I just kind of wonder if the "Venus of Willendorf" figurines are really just prehistoric porn.

I mean here you have a figurine of a naked, chubby, pregnant female with huge breasts.

It's what every prehistoric "cave" man would fantasize about.  No?  In West Africa these days,
they often like women on the plump side, show that they are well fed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2015 at 14:13
Rubenesque on steroids. Maybe that is like the computer enhanced big breasted female images that look like no living woman.

Hard to imagine hunter gatherer society that could support anyone being that big. Or maybe it was the convenience of domesticated animals that could support that kind of growth. Catalhoyuk is fascinating its been established through testing the remains of ancestors, buried right under the family dwelling, that men were eating wild game, where women were eating from the domestic bovine stock.

Wonder how long it would take, once settled in permanent dwelling, for a body to get any excess fat. One generation? One lifetime?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2015 at 01:35
Hareems.  Genetically, we can tell that certain males (presumably kings) are strongly represented in the genetic survivors.  Genghis Kahn is one of those individuals who has millions of descendants.  Presumably, these kings had hareems of women, who probably did not do that much stressful, physical exertion.  Shaharazade, the teller of 1000 Nights and a Night, would be an example of such a hareem beauty.

You are worm?

There are some arguments that say the artists of cave paintings were women.  The argument is based on the fact that the majority of handprints in cave art, are women's handprints.  The argument seems to make a certain amount of sense, enough to suggest a possiblity, but not enough to declare it so with any certainty.



Edited by franciscosan - 04 Jun 2015 at 20:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 01:48
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/news/40000yearold-cave-paintings-include-oldest-hand-stencil-known-to-science-9783840.html

"Art history will have to be rewritten after cave drawings in Indonesia – including one of a “pig deer” - were found to be 40,000 years old, older than European art previously thought to be the most ancient, providing the first evidence that our human ancestors were creating art in the region at that time."



...the worm quote is from Highlander. Wow they can tell its female hands? Maybe girls?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 04:17
There is a New Yorker cartoon that I have heard of, two cavemen are talking to each other in the forest, one says to the other: "I don't get it, we only eat organic, everything is natural, and we only live until we're thirty."  
I am repeating what I have heard from friends, but if you know the general idea, you might be able to trace down an article on the topic.  I can't tell you how they would know, but if you can find an article on the subject, it should tell you how they reached the conclusion that most of handprints are female.  Probably something to do with biometrics.
The point I'm making with the above joke is that for any such group, there would be a low median age of mid, late teens.  But I don't think that they could tell the age of the individual from the tracings.  The supposition is that the handprints are like signatures.  On the other hand, I could see handprints as a way of 'representing' members that are not 'represented' by drawings.
I don't know what they're talking about when they say that there is not much pre-historic art in Africa, from what I understand, there is a lot of stuff up in and north of the Sahara.  Of course maybe they think that it is from the wrong time period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 14:13
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't know what they're talking about when they say that there is not much pre-historic art in Africa, from what I understand, there is a lot of stuff up in and north of the Sahara. Of course maybe they think that it is from the wrong time period.


Agree, there are thousands of examples of art in Africa, caves and pictoographs.
In a documentary about Australia, the narrator explained that the hand marks are probably signatures also. But they envisage men doing these and the tall eerie human like drawings appear to male.

However other sources, in looking at European cave art have identified children as also contributing to the art since many of the hands prints are small. It also makes sense that the young would have most easily grasped emerging technology and at some point advanced the work.

In Lascaux the animals are painted with the use of wall contours to create dimensional effects. They also believe that staging was used to create the murals overhead, add a fire and shadows at night maybe a hallucinogen, and you have some pretty intense cultural bonding.   



Edited by Vanuatu - 05 Jun 2015 at 22:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 05:56
Today, you have children in kindergarten trace their hands because that is something they can do.  Likewise, I suspect that a tribe traces handprints of children and other individuals because that is something in which they can participate.  In this scenario, it would not be the artists tracing their hands, but rather it would be those in the tribe who were _not_ artists, so that they too would not be "silent" in the stories on the walls.
I am _not_ saying that this above scenario is correct, what I am saying is that it is an alternative to the 'signature' interpretation that is on a quick glance, plausible.  In some ways it is the opposite to the 'signature' interpretation and so if adopted, it would change the dynamic between the art, the artists and the community.

There seems to be some use of locations with echoes in the cave sites.  Or so I have heard.  (not related to that), years ago my mother and father visited Lascaux and other sites.  Lascaux is generally closed off, but they open it for like a week once a year, to allow (scheduled) visitors.  The humidity is a great concern there, particularly people's breath.  So in general it is closed off, except for tours for like one week a year.

I still haven't seen Werner Herzog's movie, that he did on a prehistoric cave, the name right now escapes me.
Ask me about lice<grin>.


Edited by franciscosan - 06 Jun 2015 at 05:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 15:36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y0guHHDN5Q

"Cave of Forgotten Dreams" No subtitles.

[Quote=franciscosan]Today, you have children in kindergarten trace their hands because that is something they can do. Likewise, I suspect that a tribe traces handprints of children and other individuals because that is something in which they can participate. In this scenario, it would not be the artists tracing their hands, but rather it would be those in the tribe who were _not_ artists, so that they too would not be "silent" in the stories on the walls.
I am _not_ saying that this above scenario is correct, what I am saying is that it is an alternative to the 'signature' interpretation that is on a quick glance, plausible. In some ways it is the opposite to the 'signature' interpretation and so if adopted, it would change the dynamic between the art, the artists and the community.[/Qoute]

Right there are several interesting ideas about hand prints. In addition to the signature theory, this could have been the artist or tribe member putting himself at the scene of the events.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 18:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 02:30
Reproductions.  It still would be cool to see them.

You didn't ask me about lice:(

There are two species of lice for humans, head lice, and lice for pubic hair.  They can genetically trace these back to when they were the same species.  At that time, humans had (significant) body hair, then we lost the body hair and the two types of lice diverged.  I don't know when that was, but they do have an estimated time bp.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 04:23
Yes! The lice. If a hominid is walking tall, long distance there is more surface area to disperse heat, less reason to be there mouth agape, smaller muscles in the cheek allow for full closure of the mouth. Less hair translates into more efficient cooling for the biped.
I think its Boise Gracile, Java Man? What say you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2015 at 01:11
I don't know what Boise Gracile means, something to do with potatoes? ;)
I don't know about Java man, other than the name.
But tell me, if you don't mind.
Man is one of the few animals who can run long distances, dogs and horses (and maybe reindeer??) are the others, domesticated by man. 
 Some believe that the domestication of the dog was the significant difference between early homo sapiens and neanderthal man.  Neanderthal was not stupid, it _perhaps_ was just that they couldn't compete with the dog-man combo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 02:28

Australopithecus or Parantropus Boisei Robustus and Gracile (After Leaky's benefactor Charles Boisei).

Robust and Gracile are from the Lucy family about (2.1 MYA to 1.2MYA).
Except that they have slight difference in build.

Mary Leaky at Olduvai Gorge Tanzania 1959, found "Nutcracker Man" (and others)he was of the Robust variety, jaw muscles like a gorilla but they are around only four foot six with brain capacity slightly more than a Chimp.

They did have a pelvis made for walking and the legs for it too. The Gracile variety in other fossils with same dating and similar body characteristics have a smaller face, canines are smaller.

Molars and analysis show that they ate more grass than others in similar classifications. I think this animal is like a Renaissance Ape.

Remember the story in the news a few years back about a family who adopted a chimp and then realized they couldn't keep him? They take him to a reserve. On his birthday tee hee, they bring him a cake and take him out of the enclosure.
Well Junior is not the little prince at the big house. So the dominant male orchestrates an attack on the man and woman, going directly to the latch and expertly letting himself out. I'd heard about this before. A chimp knows how to get out but just doesn't let on about it. So this couple are horribly mauled and mutilated.

My point is this smart little Gracile is retaining more of the gorilla side of Pan evolution, using scrapers, wooden tools and maybe smaller teeth indicates less aggression more thinking. I'm sorry the people were hurt but my big take away from that was, smart chimp.

Java man is really nothing more than a couple of leg bones in reality. But he dates to 700,000 BCE, that's a couple hundred thousand years after Homo Erectus is walking full stride, using tools and right before fossil evidence of Handy Man.

I think this is another Renaissance character. He's been away from Africa for a long time, anthropologist disagree whether he would have body hair. He's also sharing Java with Floresiensis the "Hobbit" and miniature elephants. Now that just seems like a dream world doesn't it?

There's an article in June Smithsonian "Are our faces getting smaller?"
Links have great pictures and more details about Dubois the Dutch scientist who found Java. He and Raymond Dart were unappreciated. Those Piltdown Buggers got all the glory for a lie.

http://anthropology.ua.edu/bindon/ant270/lectures/hominids2.pdfhttps://answersingenesis.org/human-evolution/hominids/who-was-java-man/http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/boisei

Edited by Vanuatu - 09 Jun 2015 at 04:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2015 at 05:36
There is also the Denisovian tooth.

I am sure I have that Smithsonian issue, somewhere.

I think people who stick forks in light sockets, deserve to be shocked, it is nothing personal.  It is just causality.  If you do X, Y happens. Unfortunately, when it happens with an animal attack, generally the animal gets "put down."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2015 at 07:18
I looked at the new Scientific American, and saw the article (or was it Discover?) on the chin which is a uniquely human trait, and may be there because the face is getting smaller.  So, Vanuatu, I finally know what you are talking about with the face getting smaller:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2015 at 15:22
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I looked at the new Scientific American, and saw the article (or was it Discover?) on the chin which is a uniquely human trait, and may be there because the face is getting smaller.  So, Vanuatu, I finally know what you are talking about with the face getting smaller:)


Sorry, I'm sure I meant to elaborate but some distraction -kids, pets or neighbors pushed it out of my head.
What I was referring to:

"Why do Humans have Chins?"
The author is looking at the reasons why the faces of hominids developed chins and smaller faces.

"...the chin was a byproduct of a shrinking face. Indeed, as the first modern humans evolved, late in the Pleistocene, the face decreased in size and tilted inward, pushing part of the lower jaw outward. “If natural selection is looking to alter one part somewhere, it incidentally affects the shape of another component somewhere else,” Pampush says.

"Which leads to another question: What prompted the hominid face to shrink? Reduced aggression and lower testosterone, proposes Robert Franciscus, a paleoanthropologist at the University of Iowa. Those changes, in turn, were associated with more cooperation and more social tolerance, but lowered hormone levels would have also led to a smaller face. Fossil evidence supports that trend."

Kind of creepy when you think of the description of "The Greys" given by those claiming UFO /Alien abduction.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-do-humans-have-chins-1-180955299/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 04:40
I have heard that having children can affect one's memory.

As in, "oh honey, let's have another child, our first one was so easy."

For some reason, the long nights and projectile vomiting gets forgotten.
<grin>

The Smithsonian was the magazine with the article I read, I just didn't read at home (I have subscription)
I read it at the grocery store, and _because_ I read it at the grocery store, I assumed it was not the 
Smithsonian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2015 at 14:59
I think the memory loss is by design. I agree there are no seconds if one fully remembers the struggle of the first.

Poor Smithsonian trying to stay alive at the grocery store. It's still high quality work but using paper that is really no longer needed seems kind of prehistoric.

Everyone loves the bulk of a book, especially the author. Amazon is now going to pay its Kindle authors by the pages read. It will actually allow for a swipe and a set amount of time for the reader and then the author gets about $1.38.

Edited by Vanuatu - 26 Jun 2015 at 15:00
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