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Topic ClosedUS school curriculum ethnocentric?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2010 at 18:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

..Hmm, for example Afro Americans comprises around 12 percent. Asians, Hispanics and many others are also more than 2 percent...
 
Latin Americans made circa the 15% of the U.S. population, and among the children they are about the 25%. So, the second largest majority in the U.S. is the Hispanic, a  lot larger than any other group, Blacks and Asians included.
 
But don't teach Hispanic history in the U.S.. Teach Amerindian, because they came first. And they shouldn't be ignored as they are today.


And especially since they have inhabited the Americas for a 30 times longer period than all others.

But also to teach more about the other minorities and their background and cultures can not hurt. When different peoples live together it must be to some advantage that they know something about their different historical and cultural backgrounds.


Edited by Carcharodon - 05 Jan 2010 at 18:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2010 at 19:08
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

....
But also to teach more about the other minorities and their background and cultures can not hurt. When different peoples live together it must be to some advantage that they know something about their different historical and cultural backgrounds.


But that's another topic. If you want to improve international relations and to make it easy for refugees to integrate, it is fine to know others cultures.

But the worst you could do is to preach multiculturalism while at the same time forget the natives.
Actually, in several places multiculturalism is used as an excuse to ignore natives, who remain just one more between a crowd of immigrants. That shouldn't be.

Generosity starts at home (Spanish proverb)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2010 at 19:30
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

....
But also to teach more about the other minorities and their background and cultures can not hurt. When different peoples live together it must be to some advantage that they know something about their different historical and cultural backgrounds.


But that's another topic. If you want to improve international relations and to make it easy for refugees to integrate, it is fine to know others cultures.

But the worst you could do is to preach multiculturalism while at the same time forget the natives.
Actually, in several places multiculturalism is used as an excuse to ignore natives, who remain just one more between a crowd of immigrants. That shouldn't be.

Generosity starts at home (Spanish proverb)


I agree with that the natives shall have a special place in the curriculum. They were first and it is their land (or at least was before it was stolen).

But muliculturalism is a fact, at least in the US, so some teachings about different cultural backgrounds is probably necessary for the different groups to fully understand each other.



Edited by Carcharodon - 05 Jan 2010 at 19:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2010 at 19:47
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
I agree with that the natives shall have a special place in the curriculum. They were first and it is their land (or at least was before it was stolen).

But muliculturalism is a fact, at least in the US, so some teachings about different cultural backgrounds is probably necessary for the different groups to fully understand each other.



Certainly. But just don't hide the natives behind the multicultural crowd. Every people in the world, who move elsewhere, still have its culture back home, overseas or far away, but still there. But natives only have a place to call home and it is were they are.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2010 at 19:55
Agree, one could actually call it two separate issues that both must be delt with, to increase understanding on all levels.

Edited by Carcharodon - 05 Jan 2010 at 19:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 03:28
Pinguino, in re: "Don't worry about it. Caucasians never were in the Americas 7.000 years ago. That's an invention of racist and white supremacists. That's precisely why children should know theirs real history so it is not stolen by lunatics."

That's a subjective judgment, not an objective one.  Which is precisely the problem with your point of view. And creation myths to those who still live within Indian communities are not a cultural subject, they are a religious subject whose adherents demand respect much in the same way as Christian fundamentalists do. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 03:42
Lirelou, don't waste your breath this thread went into Goofball land long ago and its presence here is actually an embarrassment to the integrity of Forum.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 11:04
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguino, in re: "Don't worry about it. Caucasians never were in the Americas 7.000 years ago. That's an invention of racist and white supremacists. That's precisely why children should know theirs real history so it is not stolen by lunatics."

That's a subjective judgment, not an objective one.  Which is precisely the problem with your point of view. And creation myths to those who still live within Indian communities are not a cultural subject, they are a religious subject whose adherents demand respect much in the same way as Christian fundamentalists do. 


That's an objective judgment, not a subjective one, actually. It is the result of seen how during 500 hundred years the man of the Old World has tried to robb the heritage of the Americas. They invented the myth of the Lost Tribe in the Americas, the myth of the Romans in the Americas, the myths of the Chinese, Arabs, East Indians, Africans, Polynesians, you-name-it, in the Americas. All done with the intention of robb the Amerindians from theirs legitimate precedence.

With respect to religion, well, if Amerindians are religious, good for them. After all, the cross was the second tool after the sword, used to the destruction of the Ancient Americas. It is time we forget a bit about those strange Abrahmic religious pushed into the Americas, don't you think? After all, why to worry for Christ if there is  a Quetzalcoatl Wink


Edited by pinguin - 06 Jan 2010 at 11:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 11:05
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Lirelou, don't waste your breath this thread went into Goofball land long ago and its presence here is actually an embarrassment to the integrity of Forum.


Now you are embarrased, Drgonzaga? Don't play, please. You are not precisely polite in your answers.


Edited by pinguin - 06 Jan 2010 at 11:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 14:52
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

And creation myths to those who still live within Indian communities are not a cultural subject, they are a religious subject whose adherents demand respect much in the same way as Christian fundamentalists do.  </span>

That should be said more often.

Edited by Mixcoatl - 06 Jan 2010 at 14:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 18:08
Drgonzaga, Agreed, but I keep hoping that some day the light of reason will glow over Pinguino's head. I sounded exactly like him when I was 17 and imbued with visions of noble savages.  

Edited by lirelou - 06 Jan 2010 at 18:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 18:22
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Drgonzaga, Agreed, but I keep hoping that some day the light of reason will glow over Pinguino's head. I sounded exactly like him when I was 17 and imbued with visions of noble savages.  


Sure, but I can't stop from doing the following comment. So, now that you are illuminated by the light of reason, I hope you forgot those childish fantasies about Caucasians in the Americas 7000 years ago LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 21:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Lirelou, don't waste your breath this thread went into Goofball land long ago and its presence here is actually an embarrassment to the integrity of Forum.


Now you are embarrased, Drgonzaga? Don't play, please. You are not precisely polite in your answers.
 
Au contraire mon ami, in fact I am being overly polite and leaving you alone to stew in your own juices. Someone crazed from hunger might find your dish palatable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 22:34
Originally posted by Carch Carch wrote:

Maybe a combination of both. Take away some unneccecary things and add some neccecary ones. As in literature, take away some Shakespeare and add some Popol Vuh. In history, some less European history and more about Native American, African and Asian history. Its always possible to reorganize in a suitable way.


But you don't demonstrate what is unnecessary. And I am still opposed to removing the Shakespeare. So at the end of the day you are asking us to remove valuable lessons with greater significance for the students (because they are from the student's own mainstream heritage), to replace it with something foreign. Kids in high school need to know about their own nation before the wider world, you start with the basics. For those that wish to know more about the wider world, there are free public libraries, very affordable workshops on literature and foreign culture, as well as university courses.

Quote Hmm, for example Afro Americans comprises around 12 percent. Asians, Hispanics and many others are also more than 2 percent.
And if we see history not only in terms of the contemporary number of people but take into consideration the time factor, Native Americans have been in the Americas for about 15 000 years and Europeans have been there for around 500 years.


And all those groups do get their history taught in schools. Here is the problem, Carch. You come into this thread assuming there is a horrible deficiency in the US education system regarding the teaching of ethnic cultures, based on a single local complaint. From what I have seen and heard of the US education system from people who have actually been through it, these significant minority groups are covered in some detail. So you have not demonstrated you have a case to make big changes.

Quote Reorganizing could not be impossible. When the world develop and change new knowledge must always be integrated in the school curriculum.


Here you go again. You simply imagine it is a matter of the teacher waving their magic wand and the mystical magic of 'reorganisation' will suddenly change everything for the better. Attend to reality. You make the students study more (bad idea, they have enough) or you throw something out to make room. That's how it is.

Quote Why should they be more dishonest than the representaives of the European descended Americans (who really are those who have been dishonest through history)??


Did it occur to you that the educators and teachers on the education boards actually come from a very diverse range of backgrounds? From personal experience, I can say they definitely do, teaching staff have to be some of the most diverse people I have known. In fact I cannot think of any other profession I have worked in where the staff were more diverse.

And yes, I think an ethnic congregation whose mission is the advancement of their own ethnic agenda is far more likely to engage in game playing, selfish behaviour than a diverse and experienced team of education professionals. The former is there to secure the interests of their ethnic group, the latter is there to provide for the educational needs of their students.

Quote
I am sure that with some good will the board of schools and the authorities can manage to do some reorganisations (especially if they listen to represenatives for minorities and also to schoolars). If they can not then they are maybe not suitable for their jobs. And the exact details of that reorganisations I will leave to the experts.


Again, you don't even specify how the system is unfairly ethnocentric. And yet you are on the verge of telling me the teachers are incompetent. The only one not displaying competence here is yourself, for assuming the system needs changes when you don't demonstrate why.

And again, you invoke the magical word 'reorganisation' which is somehow meant to make everything better. As I keep repeating, as someone with experience, the only way to make changes is to alter the body of knowledge being taught. And the value in that is in the detail. So for as long as you continue to cry 'reorganisation', without actually proposing any real changes with real details, your argument continues to be unpersuasive.

Quote Well, it seems that they hitherto has not done their job to the fullest since many people still feel themselves not included in the curriculum in a proper way.


No, you're wrong. Even in a perfect system people complain. You have come up with a single local complaint and suddenly the entire system needs to change? That's just very silly. One complaint in a nation of 300 million people? Get a sense of scale and perspective.

Quote Shakespeare is not meaningless, one can teach about him too, but one must still see the proportions of his importance compared with many other literary creators and creations.
In the sort of global world that we are entering Shakespeare are not more important than Wu Chengen. America is a multicultural society and it would be strange if that was not reflected in a higher degree in the schools and classrooms.


Shakespeare is more important if you spend most of your life living in an English speaking country. And frankly, most Americans do.

America may be a multicultural society, but let's not overdo it. The law, language, financial system, government and pretty much most things that are central to how society actually works are a product of European, and particularly British, heritage. In high school kids are still learning about what makes up their society, because you need to start kids with the basics. And this is why Shakespeare takes precedence over some other foreign writers. If these young adults wish to study foreign masters, there are avenues from them to do that later on after they have learned about the heritage of their own culture.

Quote Well, to teach history has several meanings. Besides knowledge for its own sake it can also have the meaning of creating tolerance and teach people to hopefully dont make the same mistakes over and over again.


And you can also use historical knowledge to find out of how cheat society, oppress others, stage military coups etc etc. Just as you can use historical knowledge to become a more tolerant person, or a less tolerant person.

That doesn't change the fact that history is the study of past events to determine fact and truth, and historical studies should be structured to teach students this. Not make them more or less tolerant.

Quote And historical knowledge in itself is not only about Europeans and European heritage. US is a mulitude of cultures and all Americans ought to have the right to learn about this multitude and its history. First when that is achieved one can talk about teaching history as it really is.


What do you mean Americans should have the right? Don't they have it already? I was under the impression that even the poorest person could take out library books. Or will the Gestapo pounce on them when they try to take out library books on Costa Rican history?

US studies are ethnocentric. And reasonably so. Americans need to know about what makes up their mainstream culture and heritage, and they need to understand this more than they need to know about foreign cultures or small sub-cultures within their own society (these things they can learn as they become more advanced students).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 23:06
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


....
But you don't demonstrate what is unnecessary. And I am still opposed to removing the Shakespeare. So at the end of the day you are asking us to remove valuable lessons with greater significance for the students (because they are from the student's own mainstream heritage), to replace it with something foreign. Kids in high school need to know about their own nation before the wider world, you start with the basics. For those that wish to know more about the wider world, there are free public libraries, very affordable workshops on literature and foreign culture, as well as university courses.


What is mainstream? Is it Euroepan you mean? European culture is just a tiny bit of the cultural world heritage. Hardly mainstream.
And some historians and experts of world history, world literature and similar subjects could surely find a balance in the teachings of culture and history, with some input from well educated representants for all groups that are represented in the US, not only representants  from the Anglo American culture.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


....
And all those groups do get their history taught in schools. Here is the problem, Carch. You come into this thread assuming there is a horrible deficiency in the US education system regarding the teaching of ethnic cultures, based on a single local complaint. From what I have seen and heard of the US education system from people who have actually been through it, these significant minority groups are covered in some detail. So you have not demonstrated you have a case to make big changes.


I do not assume anything, I just go by the complaints I heard and read from peoples like the Amerindians who feel that much of their history and culture are left out in the curriculum. Maybe you better ask them why they feel that way.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:



Here you go again. You simply imagine it is a matter of the teacher waving their magic wand and the mystical magic of 'reorganisation' will suddenly change everything for the better. Attend to reality. You make the students study more (bad idea, they have enough) or you throw something out to make room. That's how it is.


So American schools are according to you unable to take in new information and incorporate it in the teaching in the schools? If so, it does not sound good for the future of America.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Did it occur to you that the educators and teachers on the education boards actually come from a very diverse range of backgrounds? From personal experience, I can say they definitely do, teaching staff have to be some of the most diverse people I have known. In fact I cannot think of any other profession I have worked in where the staff were more diverse.


Thats nice, hope it will shine through even more in the education.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

And yes, I think an ethnic congregation whose mission is the advancement of their own ethnic agenda is far more likely to engage in game playing, selfish behaviour than a diverse and experienced team of education professionals. The former is there to secure the interests of their ethnic group, the latter is there to provide for the educational needs of their students.


If not Anglo America had acted  in selfish behaviour for ages now, there would maybe be not so many complaints about ethnocentricity and exclusion.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


....
No, you're wrong. Even in a perfect system people complain. You have come up with a single local complaint and suddenly the entire system needs to change? That's just very silly. One complaint in a nation of 300 million people? Get a sense of scale and perspective.


It seems the choir of criticism is so loud that it is hardly any perfect system (such creature does not exist), there are always room for improvements.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


....
Shakespeare is more important if you spend most of your life living in an English speaking country. And frankly, most Americans do.


But still it would be very good if Americans would learn a lot more about other cultures (especially those that are represented in their own country) and their literature and other cultural expressions. Maybe that would decrease the sometimes blatant ignorance many Americans show when it concerns other cultures and their history.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


...
That doesn't change the fact that history is the study of past events to determine fact and truth, and historical studies should be structured to teach students this. Not make them more or less tolerant.


Well, since history is the study of past events than it is completely unhistorical to put to much emphasis on just one groups history. That is actually to corrupt history.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

What do you mean Americans should have the right? Don't they have it already? I was under the impression that even the poorest person could take out library books. Or will the Gestapo pounce on them when they try to take out library books on Costa Rican history?


In elementary school the children have not always the ability to choose information themselves or know what to choose. They are depending on a good curriculum that shows them the full scope of human experience on the American continent.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 23:46
I have been following this thread for several days.  It amuses me that anyone thinks ANY school official/state education executive gives a rat's ass about history or whose it is.
 
There is not enough time in a school curriculum to pay adequate attention to anyone's history, let alone "Amerindians'" or the components of any other ethnicity.  American Indians may have been on the two continents for 25,000 years, or for whatever time.  No one cares.
 
American Indians have been among history's losers.  They lost in Central America; they lost in South America; they lost in North America.  There were reasons why they were losers.  More populous peoples and/or with more advanced technological instrumentalities overcame them with numbers and the ability to use more advanced knowledge.  One can feel sorry for them, but there it is.  If they were "here first," and here for 250 centuries, what did it matter?  They still lost.
 
There is as little reason to expend time on the alleged "history" of illiterate, stone age American peoples as there is to expend it on remote African tribes in Tanzania.  Neither of them really matter, either to expenditure on educational resources or to the effects of their "history" on modern life.
 
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 23:49
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

....
US studies are ethnocentric. And reasonably so. Americans need to know about what makes up their mainstream culture and heritage, and they need to understand this more than they need to know about foreign cultures or small sub-cultures within their own society (these things they can learn as they become more advanced students).
 
So, remember what the pilgrims did, and forget the Indians?
That's not focusing in the mainstream at all. That's segregation. And that's plain and simple an injustice.
 
After all, American Indians collaborated to create the MAINSTREAM America. Or do you think that country called the U.S. is the result of Europeans only?
 
However, I don't think you represent the majority of Americans at all. Otherwise, the popular media wouldn't be full of stories about the American Indians. Even the state has recognize the American Indians a lot more than the deniers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 23:53
LOL  How did the American Indians collaborate "to create the MAINSTREAM America?"
 
We await your filling the forum with your unchallengable wisdom!!!! 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 23:58
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

There is not enough time in a school curriculum to pay adequate attention to anyone's history, let alone "Amerindians'" or the components of any other ethnicity.  American Indians may have been on the two continents for 25,000 years, or for whatever time.  No one cares.
 
You don't care. Don't speak for the rest.
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

American Indians have been among history's losers. 
 
Who haven't lost once? Americans lost in Vietnam, after all, and so what. I bet that part of the history should be erased also?
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

They lost in Central America; they lost in South America; they lost in North America.  There were reasons why they were losers.  More populous peoples and/or with more advanced technological instrumentalities overcame them with numbers and the ability to use more advanced knowledge.  One can feel sorry for them, but there it is.  If they were "here first," and here for 250 centuries, what did it matter?  They still lost.
 
Who said they lost in South America or in Central Americas? Yes, the governments of the Aztecs and Incas were replaced by European administration. But at least here, the descendents of the American Indians (most of the people that live here; and not only registered Indians) are proud of that past.
 
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

There is as little reason to expend time on the alleged "history" of illiterate, stone age American peoples as there is to expend it on remote African tribes in Tanzania.  Neither of them really matter, either to expenditure on educational resources or to the effects of their "history" on modern life.
 
I don't insult you because you are a moderator, but I am afraid you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
If you admire so much Europe and downplay so much the Ancient People of the Americas, why don't you move to Europe, instead?
 
Just remember this. The so called "white" people is becoming a minority in the U.S., and they are already loosing the political control of that country. Sooner of later the schools will have to chance theirs history class, and hopefully in those future studies they give the Amerindians the place they deserve.
 
However, I am pretty sure most Americans are proud of theirs own personal Amerindian ancestors. Only the most recent European immigrants, (those that lacks roots in the New World, because theirs ancestors arrived one or two generations ago) give a damn on American Indians.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 23:59
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

LOL  How did the American Indians collaborate "to create the MAINSTREAM America?"
 
We await your filling the forum with your unchallengable wisdom!!!! 
 


America of today is a result of historical processes where the American Indians had a very important role, maybe some times as adversaries (which was not their fault) but still they where very much involved in creating todays America.

And actually they they are still around contributing to and shaping the history and culture of America. And actually their long history in America is in the long run maybe more important and interesting than some of the rather short, hodge podge, wild west style history of the European descendants.



Edited by Carcharodon - 07 Jan 2010 at 00:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:00
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

LOL  How did the American Indians collaborate "to create the MAINSTREAM America?"
 
We await your filling the forum with your unchallengable wisdom!!!! 
 
 
 
How come you don't know? Aren't you an American, or just an European that receive the green card by mail?Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:02
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

There is not enough time in a school curriculum to pay adequate attention to anyone's history, let alone "Amerindians'" or the components of any other ethnicity.  American Indians may have been on the two continents for 25,000 years, or for whatever time.  No one cares.
 
You don't care. Don't speak for the rest.
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

American Indians have been among history's losers. 
 
Who haven't lost once? Americans lost in Vietnam, after all, and so what. I bet that part of the history should be erased also?
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

They lost in Central America; they lost in South America; they lost in North America.  There were reasons why they were losers.  More populous peoples and/or with more advanced technological instrumentalities overcame them with numbers and the ability to use more advanced knowledge.  One can feel sorry for them, but there it is.  If they were "here first," and here for 250 centuries, what did it matter?  They still lost.
 
Who said they lost in South America or in Central Americas? Yes, the governments of the Aztecs and Incas were replaced by European administration. But at least here, the descendents of the American Indians (most of the people that live here; and not only registered Indians) are proud of that past.
 
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

There is as little reason to expend time on the alleged "history" of illiterate, stone age American peoples as there is to expend it on remote African tribes in Tanzania.  Neither of them really matter, either to expenditure on educational resources or to the effects of their "history" on modern life.
 
I don't insult you because you are a moderator, but I am afraid you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
If you admire so much Europe and downplay so much the Ancient People of the Americas, why don't you move to Europe, instead?
 
Just remember this. The so called "white" people is becoming a minority in the U.S., and they are already loosing the political control of that country. Sooner of later the schools will have to chance theirs history class, and hopefully in those future studies they give the Amerindians the place they deserve.
 
However, I am pretty sure most Americans are proud of theirs own personal Amerindian ancestors. Only the most recent European immigrants, (those that lacks roots in the New World, because theirs ancestors arrived one or two generations ago) give a damn on American Indians.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I am pretty sure most Americans don't give a damn. 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:04
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

LOL  How did the American Indians collaborate "to create the MAINSTREAM America?"
 
We await your filling the forum with your unchallengable wisdom!!!! 
 
 
 
How come you don't know? Aren't you an American, or just an European that receive the green card by mail?Confused
 
Take care, loser lover.  You are treading on thin ice as always.  LOLLOLLOL
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:04
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

 
I am pretty sure most Americans don't give a damn. 
 
And I am pretty sure you don't know your own people.
 
Have you seen the more popular thread in  Family Tree DNA? It is the ones that talks about American Indian ancestry.
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:05
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

LOL  How did the American Indians collaborate "to create the MAINSTREAM America?"
 
We await your filling the forum with your unchallengable wisdom!!!! 
 


America of today is a result of historical processes where the American Indians had a very important role, maybe some times as adversaries (which was not their fault) but still they where very much involved in creating todays America.

And actually they they are still around contributing to and shaping the history and culture of America.

 
The view from Scandinavia is obviously much different than it is from where it actually applies.  Wink
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:13

Well, I don't see that your own view is very informmed either.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:19
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

 
The view from Scandinavia is obviously much different than it is from where it actually applies.  Wink
 


Sometimes it can be more easy for an outsider to see the structures and contexts. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:27
Quote What is mainstream? Is it Euroepan you mean? European culture is just a tiny bit of the cultural world heritage. Hardly mainstream.
And some historians and experts of world history, world literature and similar subjects could surely find a balance in the teachings of culture and history, with some input from well educated representants for all groups that are represented in the US, not only representants  from the Anglo American culture.


Irrelevant. You learn about your own culture before that of the wider world first. We are talking about the high school curriculum, not tertiary level.
And yes, mainstream US culture is largely derived from European heritage.

Quote I do not assume anything, I just go by the complaints I heard and read from peoples like the Amerindians who feel that much of their history and culture are left out in the curriculum. Maybe you better ask them why they feel that way.


You show us one complaint and assume we now need to butcher the US curriculum. One complaint in a nation of 300 million. So yes, you assume far too much.

Quote

So American schools are according to you unable to take in new information and incorporate it in the teaching in the schools? If so, it does not sound good for the future of America.


It isn't a question of whether they can teach different information, but a question of whether they should. And so far your argument that they should do this is not at all convincing.

Quote Thats nice, hope it will shine through even more in the education.


Maybe it does, but you don't realise it because you believe that one local complaint is representative of a nation of 300 million people.

Quote
If not Anglo America had acted  in selfish behaviour for ages now, there would maybe be not so many complaints about ethnocentricity and exclusion.


That doesn't mean the complaints have any validity though. Nor does it mean that students should be forced to neglect helpful topics of education about their own heritage in order to study marginal ones which have little to no effect on their lives. And yes, my point stands the teachers and educators are better placed to decide the curriculum, not a self interested ethnic pressure group.

Quote
It seems the choir of criticism is so loud that it is hardly any perfect system (such creature does not exist), there are always room for improvements.


Where? So far you have displayed one case of complaint. A solo is not a choir, Carch.

Quote
But still it would be very good if Americans would learn a lot more about other cultures (especially those that are represented in their own country) and their literature and other cultural expressions. Maybe that would decrease the sometimes blatant ignorance many Americans show when it concerns other cultures and their history.


As I keep repeating, it isn't very good if they learn about other cultures when they don't have a decent understanding of their own. You start with the basics, then move to the more advanced stuff.

Quote
Well, since history is the study of past events than it is completely unhistorical to put to much emphasis on just one groups history. That is actually to corrupt history.


That is not bad history at all. Focusing on groups which are more relevant is a natural thing to do in history. Focusing on one's own history at early levels is necessary if one wishes to understand the nation they live in. This is the first priority. With that accomplished, then an understanding of the wider world may begin.

Quote In elementary school the children have not always the ability to choose information themselves or know what to choose. They are depending on a good curriculum that shows them the full scope of human experience on the American continent.


So you do agree with me that Americans do actually have the right to study non-mainstream historical topics. Good, glad we could agree on that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:40
An example of what SHOULD be tought at U.S. schools.
 
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

An example of what SHOULD be tought at U.S. schools.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Let's all rewrite the history of the Western hemisphere as pinguIndian fantasy.  LOLLOLLOLLOL
 
 
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