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Vikings in South America and racism

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 08:18
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The proof is simple. Trace the origin of the Nazi beliefs in the Atlantis, and the the same mecanism is in action here.

Graham as already dealt. With that. And I'd like to add that whatever the Nazis might have believed about Atlantis is irrelevant to the question if, say, Gavin Menzies is a racist for saying China had colonies on Puerto Rico.

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

...If it's so blatantly obvious that the pseudohistorians we are talking about are motivated by racism then surely it's easy to produce some evidence for your claim.
I didn't say pseudohistorians are motivated by racism. They are racists and some not even know it. They are racist for the simple fact they DENY Amerindians theirs own culture, development and creations.

Please make up your mind before you engage in a debate. What you're saying here is "They are not motivated by racism. They are motivated by racism." So are they or not?

Quote Now, the motivation of pseudohistorians is more simple than that: it is money. They know the world is covered with ignorance, and that exploiting it produces money, so they go for the dollar.

Since you agree the world is full of ignorance, why do you deny the possibility that the pseudohistorians themselves are victims of that themselves?

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Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

...Do you realize that you're using the same tactics the Afrocentrists use?
"Olmecs were black, stop stealing our heritage. If you deny that you're racist."
I don't know who are the Afrocentrists, and what one should learn from them.Olmecs were Amerindians, and anyone that say otherwise lies.

Well, yeah, but they are lies because the evidence for the Afrocentrists' claims is extremely flimsy of not unexistant. The question if Afrocentrists are racists or not is irrelevant to the question if they are right or not. What I am saying is, if you got into a debate with an Afrocentrists there is no way for an observer do make out who's right because both you and the Afrocentrists' argument is "you're racist".

Is it really that hard to understand that "A claims that X. There's something objectionable about A. Therefore X is false." is a logical fallacy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 12:25
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

None of those are 'Nazi beliefs'. An occasional Nazi might possibly have held one of them, but that's just as true as the rest of the world's population.
 
Holding one of those beliefs does not make anyone a Nazi, and equally, being a Nazi did/does not mean you believed any of them.
 
A lot of garbage is talked about the Nazis and esoteric beliefs, just as it was about the Templars and theirs. The famous expedition to Tibet can hardly, when you think about it, have been a search for Atlantis, which in all the mythologies lies to the West. Granted some of the Nazi theorisers talked about an orignal home of the Aryans, and granted they got it wrong, most Nazis coldn't have cared less about Atlantis: they had more practical issues to contend with.


Nazi beliefs are well researched and studied.
Putting drgonzaga's point another way, there are/were no 'Nazi beliefs' and myore than there were 'Fascist beliefs' exept in the sense that Nazis and Fascists believed that if you fell off a cliff you would probably kill yourself.
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You well know that the swastica cames from the East, and that the link with the Tibetians shouldn't be ridiculised. After all, Tibetians died deffending the Reich capital during the fall of Berling.
The swastika didn't come from 'the east', though it is a symbol there are well as in the west. It was used, inter alia, by various pre-contact peoples in the Americas. The Nazis used the backward swastika as an emblem because of its prevalence in Indo-European cultures.
 
I wasn't ridiculing Tibetans, but merely pointing out that no-one would go to Tibet to look for the origins of a myth about the Atlantic, which is in the opposite direction. Even Rosenberg and co thought the Aryans originated in northern Europe,
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Now, one of the principles of Nazism is that there are superior and inferior peoples.
Not only Naziism, of course. It's misleading to call it a 'Nazi belief'. 
Quote
 One of the myth of the nazism is that the superior race started in Atlantis, and spread its knowledge worldwide. So, how could we wonder when those same reclycled myths are used to steal the heritage of Amerindians?
I don't know of any Nazi who ever believed the superior race started in Atlantis. Basically you are spouting tommy-rot here. If the nazis had all been members of the Hermitic Order of the Gold Dawn they wouldn't have been a tenth as dangerous as they were.
 
What are you doing? Trying to set up a defence that the Nazis weren't guilty necause they weere insane?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 12:27
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Of course Nazi didn't have a coherent ideology. But they believed in many stupid thinks, and had many myths, from the holed earth, Atlantis, the white Christ and the cycle of the Ring. That's something an historian as yourself should know.
It's something only an ignoramus would believe. The Nazis were far from crazy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 12:33
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I have studied Nazis for a long time.
No you haven't. You've just read a lot of sensationalist invented nonsense.
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The first think I recomend you study on the topic is theirs origins in the Thule lodge. That will open yours eyes.
The only significant Nazi in the Thule society was Hess. And I grant you Hess was crazy. INcidentally you are contradicting yourself here. The Thule soiciety didn't believe the original homeland was Atlantis, bu that it was Thule. That's why it was called the Thule Society.
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If you believe Nazis were intellectuals, you are dead wrong. Nazis were ignorant shamans that brought Europe 1500 years backwards in time, with the mentality of the Vikings and the violence of the Mongols.
Maybe. But none of those were crazy either.


Edited by gcle2003 - 27 Jun 2011 at 12:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 13:15
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Nazis were ignorant shamans that brought Europe 1500 years backwards in time, with the mentality of the Vikings and the violence of the Mongols.
Tsk, tsk, no self-respecting viking would gas a poor Jewish girl for the sake of her being Jewish. He would sell her for good profit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 15:25
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It's something only an ignoramus would believe. The Nazis were far from crazy.


I didn't say they were crazy. They were a bunch of dogs that followed the leader that barked stronger. And if the leader barked them about the Atlantis, they listen it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 15:32
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It's something only an ignoramus would believe. The Nazis were far from crazy.


I didn't say they were crazy. They were a bunch of dogs that followed the leader that barked stronger. And if the leader barked them about the Atlantis, they listen it.
 
Except the leader didn't bark about Atlantis, and like most people though unlike some apparently, he realised that Atlantis was supposed to be in the Atlantic, which is why the Atlantic is called the Atlantic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 15:35
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


Tsk, tsk, no self-respecting viking would gas a poor Jewish girl for the sake of her being Jewish. He would sell her for good profit.


Certainly. Ancient norse were a lot more human than the Nazis. The nordic legends, processed by people like Wagner, though, were used with a different purpose.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 15:36
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Nazis were ignorant shamans that brought Europe 1500 years backwards in time, with the mentality of the Vikings and the violence of the Mongols.
Tsk, tsk, no self-respecting viking would gas a poor Jewish girl for the sake of her being Jewish. He would sell her for good profit.


LOL That made reading through this thread worthwhile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 15:39
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Except the leader didn't bark about Atlantis, and like most people though unlike some apparently, he realised that Atlantis was supposed to be in the Atlantic, which is why the Atlantic is called the Atlantic.


It is quite clear by know that the Nazi founders met in the strange Thule lodge, inspired by esoteric works of, among others, Mme. Blavatsky. By the way, Thule means the Atlantis.
If you see the pictures of Himmler S.S. headquarters, you will realize they followed a pseudo-pagan religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 15:41
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Who is "they"? After all there were crackpots muttering such garbage long before a ne'er-do-well Austrian crossed into Bavaria! As for "historians", they have certainly analyzed the manner and style of force utilized by Hitler to consolidate power and therein there is not a single quality that could be identified as "principle". Perhaps you should pick up and read Peter Gay's Weimar Culture: The Outsider as Insider (1968) in order to understand the actual intellectual currents of Germany in the 1920s.


Sorry drgonzaga, but studying lunatics as the Nazis can confuse the more rational historian. Welcome to the madhouse.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 15:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Except the leader didn't bark about Atlantis, and like most people though unlike some apparently, he realised that Atlantis was supposed to be in the Atlantic, which is why the Atlantic is called the Atlantic.


It is quite clear by know that the Nazi founders met in the strange Thule lodge, inspired by esoteric works of, among others, Mme. Blavatsky. By the way, Thule means the Atlantis.
If you see the pictures of Himmler S.S. headquarters, you will realize they followed a pseudo-pagan religion.


From the way it looks, they incorporated any belief that accorded with their own. Anyways, Thule does not mean Atlantis, it was only the Nazi equivalent of the story. Thule was named by the Greeks after a mythical northern country. Maybe Norway, Iceland or some other Scandinavian country?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 16:06
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


From the way it looks, they incorporated any belief that accorded with their own. Anyways, Thule does not mean Atlantis, it was only the Nazi equivalent of the story. Thule was named by the Greeks after a mythical northern country. Maybe Norway, Iceland or some other Scandinavian country?


According to Seneca, that mentiones Thule in Medea, it seems it was Iceland, but that all the islands from that region of the Atlantic were called Thule. In any case, for the Nazis, that followed Blavatsky and other esoteric writers and mythmakers, Thule was somewhere in the Atlantic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 19:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Except the leader didn't bark about Atlantis, and like most people though unlike some apparently, he realised that Atlantis was supposed to be in the Atlantic, which is why the Atlantic is called the Atlantic.


It is quite clear by know that the Nazi founders met in the strange Thule lodge, inspired by esoteric works of, among others, Mme. Blavatsky. By the way, Thule means the Atlantis.
Utter absolute nonsense. Atlantis was a country supposed to have sunk beneath the waves to the west of Gibraltar/Tangier. Thule was the extreme north:  Pliny claimed that Thule was six days sail NORTH of the British Isles. . Thule is seen as an icy northern coutry, rather Scandinavian. Atlantis if seen as a Mediterranean climate countrs that conquered parts of Iberia and the Mediterranean coast as far as Athens (which it failed to take.) Atlantis was supposed to be an advanced ciilisation. Thule was supposed to be a primitive one. Above all, Arlantis is probbaly completely fictional while Thule is probably another name for a genuine country like Norway or Sweden. 
 
The two have nothing whatsoever in common.
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If you see the pictures of Himmler S.S. headquarters, you will realize they followed a pseudo-pagan religion.
Most of the Nazis were Christian. It would be untrue of course to say that most Gernam Christians were Nazis, but there were some significant Christian leaders who were. As of 1940 94% of Germans identified themselves as either Protestant or Catholic. A lot more than 6% were supporters of the party.
 
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 27 Jun 2011 at 19:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 20:09
Nonsense. Nazism was not a Christian movement.

I bet it is time for you, dear gcle2003, to go back to college.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 20:20
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Nonsense. Nazism was not a Christian movement.

I bet it is time for you, dear gcle2003, to go back to college.

And you to preschool, to learn English: he never said that. The theory of relativity is not a Jewish theory just because Einstein had his religious preferences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 20:27
Do we need a rehashing of the CoC here?  Ad hominem attacks are not acceptable here.  Consider this a friendly reminder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 20:49
OK. I leave the thread. It is impossible to discuss about Nazi beliefs in a civilised manner.
I'll come back when someone mentions the alliens that landed in Tiahuanaco.


Edited by pinguin - 27 Jun 2011 at 20:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 21:10
Who said that Nazism was a Christian movement?
 
But you might want to read up on the impact of German Christian, Protestant, concepts on the early development of Nazi "dogma"/political policy.  This impact is at time more specifically seen in Nazi "dogma"/political policy towards Jews, but can be seen in the official policy of the early years of attempting to establish a unified Protestant Church under the control of the Reich.  A good read on the subject of the relationship between Nazism and Christianity is The Holy Reich: Naxi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945.
 
Now none of this means that Nazism was a Christian Movement; it just means that Nazism had elements that were shaped by Christianity and owed their origins to Christian theology.


Edited by King John - 27 Jun 2011 at 21:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2011 at 21:14
But we should all get back to the orginal topic at hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2014 at 10:32
Vikings in South America???
 
More quasi scientific drivel-fodder for the masses.
 
When it's proven by science, then I'll accept it as true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2014 at 16:21
The only Norse that ever reached South America are the descendants of German and immigrants of Nordic countries that can be find in several places in the region. In Brazil in particular, there are millions. By the way, many Germans reached the Americas very early with the conquistadors and early colonial settlers. The Chilean aristocracy, in particular, traces its roots to a German of last name "Blumen" who was translated to "Flores", and who married a local "Indian princess" 


Edited by pinguin - 06 Apr 2014 at 16:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 03:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The only Norse that ever reached South America are the descendants of German and immigrants of Nordic countries that can be find in several places in the region. In Brazil in particular, there are millions. By the way, many Germans reached the Americas very early with the conquistadors and early colonial settlers. The Chilean aristocracy, in particular, traces its roots to a German of last name "Blumen" who was translated to "Flores", and who married a local "Indian princess" 
 
I'm not disagreeing with you.
 
Unfortunately we have a brand new crop of "History Revisionists" who want to twist historical fact to suit their own agenda.
 
You are quite right in saying that there are idiots who wants to claim the advances in other cultures for their own, and in the process denigrate the original culture.
 
But the truth is a pretty big hurdle to get over, so we ignore these people where we can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 08:20
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The only Norse that ever reached South America are the descendants of German and immigrants of Nordic countries that can be find in several places in the region. In Brazil in particular, there are millions. By the way, many Germans reached the Americas very early with the conquistadors and early colonial settlers. The Chilean aristocracy, in particular, traces its roots to a German of last name "Blumen" who was translated to "Flores", and who married a local "Indian princess" 
 
I'm not disagreeing with you.
 
Unfortunately we have a brand new crop of "History Revisionists" who want to twist historical fact to suit their own agenda.
 
You are quite right in saying that there are idiots who wants to claim the advances in other cultures for their own, and in the process denigrate the original culture.
 
But the truth is a pretty big hurdle to get over, so we ignore these people where we can.
What is all this about? Who are those "revisionists"? I find it hard to believe such a "viking South America" theory is very widespread since the only place I have seen it mentioned is in this thread.
And why confuse "norse" and "german"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 08:39
fantasus: The "Revisionists" are precisely those people who are the subject of the original post.
 
Every now and then some idiot pokes their head up with a new version of historical facts, which ignores the science and everything that's gone before.
 
Does the name Fomenko ring any bells?
 
And I don't think penguin "confused" Norse and German, as the Norse became the Germans and Normans, and I think he may have been talking about more recent times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 08:47
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

fantasus: The "Revisionists" are precisely those people who are the subject of the original post.
 
Every now and then some idiot pokes their head up with a new version of historical facts, which ignores the science and everything that's gone before.
 
Does the name Fomenko ring any bells?
 
And I don't think penguin "confused" Norse and German, as the Norse became the Germans and Normans, and I think he may have been talking about more recent times.
Now it is me who are a bit confused. "The norse became the germans"? 
No, I think they did not, they are not the same though somewhat related, as the different "british" and "iriish" are related or as english and french or spaniards and italians. And what has Fomenko to do with theories about "vikings"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 08:59
I think you're deliberately misconstruing what I said.
 
The German language, afaik, is of Norse origin, isn't it?(Or is that they belong to the same Language family)
 
Were not the Saxons a Germanic Tribe with Norse origins?
 
The word "Norman" is a derivative of "Norsemen" is it not?
 
Fomenko is a History Revisionist, isn't he?
 
 
But, back to the point, the subject of Vikings in South America is total rubbish, balderdash, codswallop, isn't it?
 
Did you even read the first post?
 
Also:
 
  • Jacques de Mahieu was a French Argentine anthropologist and Peronist. He wrote several books on esoterism, which he mixed with anthropological theories inspired by scientific racism
  • A collaborationist in Vichy France, he became an Peronist ideologue in the 1950s, mentor to a Roman Catholic nationalist youth group in the 1960s, and later in life, head of the Argentine chapter of Spanish neo-Nazi group CEDADE.
     
    and more:
     
    De Mahieu wrote on pre-Columbian America and esoteric Nazism. He travelled to Paraguay for anthropological studies, and claimed the Guayaki tribes were descendants of the Vikings. He allegedly travelled to Brazil in 1974, where he visited the Sete Cidades park in Piauí and considered it a Viking establishment. His books on the Knights Templar allege they settled in Mexico before Columbus.
     
     
    Now, would you call this guy a revisionist or simply a fool?
     
     
     


    Edited by toyomotor - 07 Apr 2014 at 10:10
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 10:53
    Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

    I think you're deliberately misconstruing what I said.
    No. It was not clear to me.
     
    Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

    The German language, afaik, is of Norse origin, isn't it?(Or is that they belong to the same Language family)
    The other way . Norse languages are of germanic origin, like english, gothic and dutch
    Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

    Were not the Saxons a Germanic Tribe with Norse origins?
     
    The word "Norman" is a derivative of "Norsemen" is it not?
    see above

    Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

    Fomenko is a History Revisionist, isn't he?
    not the same as "Nazi"
     
    Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

    But, back to the point, the subject of Vikings in South America is total rubbish, balderdash, codswallop, isn't it?
    I think so.
    Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

    Did you even read the first post?
    Yes
    Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

    Also:
     
  • Jacques de Mahieu was a French Argentine anthropologist and Peronist. He wrote several books on esoterism, which he mixed with anthropological theories inspired by scientific racism
  • A collaborationist in Vichy France, he became an Peronist ideologue in the 1950s, mentor to a Roman Catholic nationalist youth group in the 1960s, and later in life, head of the Argentine chapter of Spanish neo-Nazi group CEDADE.
     
    and more:
     
    De Mahieu wrote on pre-Columbian America and esoteric Nazism. He travelled to Paraguay for anthropological studies, and claimed the Guayaki tribes were descendants of the Vikings. He allegedly travelled to Brazil in 1974, where he visited the Sete Cidades park in Piauí and considered it a Viking establishment. His books on the Knights Templar allege they settled in Mexico before Columbus.
     
     
    Now, would you call this guy a revisionist or simply a fool?
     
     
     
    Both. And outdated too.
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    toyomotor View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 15:10
    Then, by whatever stick you measure it, we agree.
     
    That's what I call a "win win".
     
    And, no, I didn't call Fomenko a Nazi, but this other jerk was, and so was Hitler and a number of his higher eschelon, like Himmler for example.
    It's not that I was born in Ireland,
    It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2014 at 23:47
    Strange. I agree with Toyomotor in this thread.
    A point of view from the antipodes
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