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Vril, the Power of the Coming Race

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    Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 13:03
I'am writing an article about utopias, and I have collected all kind of them, like the abstract Plato's Republic, the religious Saint Augustine's City of God, the idealistic Utopia of Thomas More, the technological New Atlantis of Francis Bacon, the democratic 2440 of Mercier or the socialist Looking Backwards of Bellamy.
I have found, therefore, utopias about democracy, socialism and positivism (age of progress), but I haven't found as yet the roots of the Nazi dream. I believed that Mme. Blavatsky theosofical writings and Nietzche's superman were related to it, but I wasn't satisfied. But then I found this book.

Vril, the Power of the Coming Race, of Edward Bulwer-Lytton,

and it seem to fit perfectly as the original Nazi utopia. It was written before both Blavatsky and Nietzche, and a lot of time earlier than the Nazi movement or Mein Kampf. Even more, Willy Ley said it so (scientist of the Von Braun's team and famous scientific divulgator)

Am I right in suspecting this was the main inspiration of the Nazi dream?

Comments, please.




Edited by pinguin - 24 Aug 2011 at 13:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 15:48
"It was a dark and stormy night" and the television having nothing truly entertaining at hand I decided to muse about the most tersely written and poorly shaped pseudo-novellas spouting superficial science and the dangers of a dark world that grasped the fancy of 19th century kookdom. Voila, what better pastime than to investigate just what sent Snoopy to perch atop his doghouse before a typewritter!
 
What hath Dan Brown wrought?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 21:41
I have no idea about Vril, but I would include William Morris's News From Nowhere as an anarchist's Utopia. wikipedia and other commentators comfuse things by calling it 'socialist' (though Morris uses the word himself) when the society depicted is essentially libertarian. Morris was heavily against what the world in general now calls 'socialism'.
 
It seems a little unfair to hint at Snoopy's plagiarism. At least Snoopy had the good taste to stop at that point.


Edited by gcle2003 - 24 Aug 2011 at 21:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 00:43
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

"It was a dark and stormy night" and the television having nothing truly entertaining at hand I decided to muse about the most tersely written and poorly shaped pseudo-novellas spouting superficial science and the dangers of a dark world that grasped the fancy of 19th century kookdom. Voila, what better pastime than to investigate just what sent Snoopy to perch atop his doghouse before a typewritter!
 
What hath Dan Brown wrought?


Was has, your boring irony, has to do with the topic?
I asked something very clear. Could that book be the source of many of the lunatic Nazi beliefs? I believe so, and I wanted to discuss about it; not about Angels and Deamon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 00:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I have no idea about Vril, but I would include William Morris's News From Nowhere as an anarchist's Utopia. wikipedia and other commentators comfuse things by calling it 'socialist' (though Morris uses the word himself) when the society depicted is essentially libertarian. Morris was heavily against what the world in general now calls 'socialism'.
 

Yes, but News from Nowhere is in the line of Looking Backwards and other socialist utopias (After all, anarchists are cousings of socialists). The book the Vril is in the topic of The comming race. The race of supermen that will dominate mankind... In other words, the Nazi dream, rather than Stalin's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 02:55
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I have no idea about Vril, but I would include William Morris's News From Nowhere as an anarchist's Utopia. wikipedia and other commentators comfuse things by calling it 'socialist' (though Morris uses the word himself) when the society depicted is essentially libertarian. Morris was heavily against what the world in general now calls 'socialism'.
 

Yes, but News from Nowhere is in the line of Looking Backwards and other socialist utopias (After all, anarchists are cousings of socialists). The book the Vril is in the topic of The comming race. The race of supermen that will dominate mankind... In other words, the Nazi dream, rather than Stalin's.
Anarchists and socialist/communists are bitter enemies. Try reading Orwell's Homage to Catalonia.
 
People who believe in strong central government and people who believe in no government can hardly be called cousins. I agree though that News from Nowhere kind of looks backward, just as Morris' art did.
 
It occurs to me you should also include the end part of H.G.Wells' The Shape of Things to Come, the technocrat's utopia, though I guess you may have already.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 03:26
The Penguin asked two questions that certainly deserve a retort!
Am I right in suspecting this was the main inspiration of the Nazi dream?
 
W[hat] has(,) your boring irony (, has) to do with the topic?  [...if only B-L had held access to a good editor]
 
The Power of the Coming Race, Vri-il (or Vril-ya) and occultists, combined with the imaginative energy of cult pulp fiction does have everything to do with the proposed linkage of Hitler with nonsensical claptrap. To appeal to Willy Ley--and the notions he published through Galaxy Magazine between 1950 and 1968)--is simply and exercise in fantasy fiction posing as History. It is little more than fodder for the wonked-out that pollute the ethernet...e.g.
 
 
 
 
In a way, it is an effort premised upon underestimating the manipulative powers of Adolf Hitler to exploit the many fools he encountered in his political career as well as overestimating the literary impact of a work originally titled The Power of the Coming Race, specially if a linkage to Nietzsche is pretended. As with the contemporary phenom of Dan Brown and Templars, grails and Mary Magdalen, it calls for the confusion of the literary (bad examples at that) with the truly historical.
 
And now back to the original opening--"it was a dark and stormy night..." what is the next line? Here I'll lend a hand "when our misunderstood hero, chambered in a dank cell, picked up the prophetic tome that would shed light onto his gloomy surroundings."

 



Edited by drgonzaga - 25 Aug 2011 at 08:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 03:50
The classic report of Willy Ley was in Astounding, and was called Pseudoscience in Naziland or something like that.
What would I add but "the pen is mightier than the sword"... LOL

Edited by pinguin - 25 Aug 2011 at 03:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 04:42
To be entirely fair to Willy Ley the misapplication of what he did publish in May of 1947 is a far cry from what was implied.
 
Here through the wonders of the Internet is what Ley really wrote:
 
 
Now since my usage of obscurantist has set certain propagandizers afire of late, what better way to address this particular version than an assault on how Wiki tackled the topic:
 
 
Be aware that the purpose of obscurantist.com is forthrightly stated:
 
The primary research focus of Obscurantist is paranoid technologies and contemporary mythologies of memory and forgetting. Specific subjects range from hypertext and magick, to UFOs and conspiracy theory, investigated through the lens of alienation and anomie. 
 
Here is a handy index to the World of Whacko
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 05:39
Thanks, espec ially since I now know where Bovril got its name. I was always an Oxo man/boy myself.
 
Anyone for a nurse fetish?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 11:44
Incredible. I just finished reading the book, and I am convinced this fantasy inspired Mme. Blavatsky and the Nazi bloody lunatics. I don't think it was the intention of the author, though. But clearly he predicts the "superior aryan race" and the destruction of the inferiors, just when they abandon the underground world. It has the subterranean myths, the Aryan purity, the frenology, the misticism and the Vril, all of which was part of the Nazi belief system.
What it is interesting is that the book ends with a warning Confused How prophetic!


Edited by pinguin - 26 Aug 2011 at 11:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 18:48
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Incredible. I just finished reading the book, and I am convinced this fantasy inspired Mme. Blavatsky and the Nazi bloody lunatics.
The reasons for believing so is a well kept secret it seems?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 01:23
No. It isn't a secret. It is just that I didn't know about it. Obviously, Blavasky and afterwars the Nazis, read that book. What is amazing is that the author himself doesn't seem racist at all, as the followers were.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 04:58
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

No. It isn't a secret. It is just that I didn't know about it. Obviously, Blavasky and afterwars the Nazis, read that book. What is amazing is that the author himself doesn't seem racist at all, as the followers were.
Yes for me it is a secret, since You did not at all give sufficient reasons others should believe.
If I should follow that line of reasoning, I could say that human sacrifices were widespread in ancient Mexico and Central America, and today we hear about drug cartels and related murders. If anybody came up with a hypothesis of a connection, should we not ask for a bit more supportive evidence before we assume there is any relation between atztec human sacrifices and contemporary gangs ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 05:37
OK. I see your point. However, in this case, that book is related with Nazi mythology. You can find the link if you google "vril" and "nazi".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 06:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

OK. I see your point. However, in this case, that book is related with Nazi mythology. You can find the link if you google "vril" and "nazi".
I am still unconvinced about any value of this "Vril" book. Neither am I convinced about validity of any claims it significantlyu influenced Hitler or any Nazis of power, if they knew about it at all. The "Hitler field" has been the playground for crackpots and humbug "historians" before - I remember one K.Kujau and some sensational "diaries".
And for me the very word "Vril" makes associations to "ill". One bettrer forget the word before getting mad.


Edited by fantasus - 01 Oct 2011 at 06:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 07:29
Well, first you must realize Nazis were crappots themselves. Otherwise you wouldn't understand what they believed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 18:36
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, first you must realize Nazis were crappots themselves. Otherwise you wouldn't understand what they believed.
Remember You wrote that sentence:
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


m I right in suspecting this was the main inspiration of the Nazi dream?
Doing so You do´nt only claim there is some similarities, but that probably the Vril-book by the "Bulwer - man" played some mayor role in history. I even got the impression that You "half-way" imlied that the whole "Third-Reich" would have been significantly different had it not been for this (frankly very obscure) book or at least "we understand the history (perhaps the world war, the exterminations?) much better having read this (must read?) book. Frankly,Your reasons for believing in this extraordinary importance of this book seems not very convincing (from my point of view certainly no excaggeration) so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:51
Well, I believe that Nazi ideas didn't appear in the vaccum. They were a collection of influences comming from racist and supremacist societies of the time, and specialy from some fascist mentalities of those countries, particularly from Britain but also from the U.S. Galton, Spencer and many other loonies were British, actually.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 05:10
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, I believe that Nazi ideas didn't appear in the vaccum. They were a collection of influences comming from racist and supremacist societies of the time, and specialy from some fascist mentalities of those countries, particularly from Britain but also from the U.S. Galton, Spencer and many other loonies were British, actually.
´Who said it "happened in a vacuum"? But why from "Britain and the US"?? Why not from Central Europe itself, in particular Austria, Germany?

Edited by fantasus - 02 Oct 2011 at 06:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 05:30
Italy, Spain, Hungary, Turkey, China....? Let alone South America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 10:31
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

´Who said it "happened in a vacuum"? But why from "Britain and the US"?? Why not from Central Europe itself, in particular Austria, Germany?


Because the peak of the eugenics, and social darwininsm started in Britain and in the U.S.
That's not to blame those contemporary countries at all. Remember that in Britain, too, started communism, and the social movements for equality.

But the point is that some very influential racist thinkers started the eugenics movement in Britain and it was quickly copied in the segregationist U.S.
And that started since a century before these ideas developed and reached its peak at the Third Reich.




Edited by pinguin - 02 Oct 2011 at 10:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 10:33
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Italy, Spain, Hungary, Turkey, China....? Let alone South America.


Sure. The International Fascist of imitators. Certainly, the Duce and the Caudillo inspired many banana-republic tyrans in our region as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mable01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2012 at 22:13
Well I guess I am late to reply here but I didn't watch this nazi dream before. Found it really interesting!!
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