| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - War is Coming, brace yourselves!
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


War is Coming, brace yourselves!

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Seko- View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 21:06
Actually, none of those definitions are relative for me. They sound too theoretical and are not a practical qualification in everyday living. Looking up American Middle class in Wiki is a labor of love for those who love it. Yet theories abound. The only one that I am partial to should concede anything that takes into consideration buying power. Meaning income levels is of most importance whether it be from a working Joe, managerial Jane or Edgar the entrepreneur. 

Middle class, for me, is anyone who earns enough to buy a home, own or lease a car, pay the mortgage, pay the electricity bills, buy groceries, pay taxes, take the fam out to dinner, and have enough left over for fun money. Be it someone on an assembly line who would fall under the traditional label of working class or someone in upper management. Makes no difference to me. Many times they even made the same amount of money. I know of quite a few hourly auto workers who have a greater income then their managers. But maybe no more. A new change is hitting factories and new wages are being constructed to the detriment of middle class living.

Here's the kicker, this stuff (employment) is so sector oriented that as one crumbles another flourishes. It best be that the one doing the flourishing is large enough for those without jobs to join in on the fun. Speaking of managerial positions, there has been a rather large exodus from the state I live in. Those in the Auto industry have closed shop (slang for moving out) and looked elsewhere. Those with fancy degrees are a liability as is age and experience. Hiring on the cheap is in vogue with employers as is getting rid of the fat.

post script - as I'm writing this I keep thinking back to games we have to play in order to procure and hold onto employment. Excuses abound as the rationale for cost cutting measures. Remember, the only reason why employers really need to cut costs and one that is really worth its salt is - lower revenue than previous years and higher costs of doing business. Keep that in mind. Holding onto a job when those dire situations are not prevalent is a game. As long as one is a decent enough worker they should bargain to hold onto their position and not accept anything less. "We are having a down year" blah blah blah is not welcome especially when employers won't show you specific cost cutting measures as they try to renegotiate you into lower salary. Cutting jobs across the board is rough and prevalent but still there is wiggle room for an employee. Anyway once they sell you that bill of goods you are supposed to bend over and take a pay cut, make coffee yourself and be so lucky they give you parking space.

Reminds me of a true story not too long ago...one we either have been through ourselves or know of personally. MrX saw the writing on the wall. Seeing his friends get the boot and wondered if he would be next in line, he bitched and grovelled to no avail. Yet, he did something actually tangible. He sought employment elsewhere. Just looking. Well, the day came where work became unbearable. He then got a few calls from prospective employers at other companies. So he walks into work one day and says he will be leaving soon. Quitting as it is called. So, what we have here is a downtrodden Joe who took the next step for his own success. Lucky him. Good educative background, guts, determination and experience landed him a better job. But! He never swallowed the bitter pill his previous company wanted him to swallow. When they said, "we will restructure all of your contracts" he went into survival mode. Fringe benefit of taking the bull by the horns? The irony is that cost cutting CompanyZ was willing to have him back at a higher salary of his choosing. And all while everyone thought that cost cutting was the real reason for restructuring!

I went off on a tangent the last few posts. Please forgive. Now where were we?


Edited by Seko - 27 Jul 2010 at 22:40
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Seko- View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 21:15
DukeC, right on!Thumbs Up
Back to Top
Parnell View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Location: Barcelona
Status: Offline
Points: 3227
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 21:33
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

But it's always interesting that Americans in general refuse to acept that most people are working class.
 
If you go to work and your employer tells you what to do that makes you working class. Even if you are technically self-employed, but you only do what the client tells you to do, then you are still working class.
 
If you decide for yourself what should be done, or you tell the client what he should do, then that makes you middle class. Most people don't make the cut.


Yep. Tony Hayward (*250k per annum) has everything in common with Frank Gallagher LOL
http://xkcd.com/15/



Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 21:38
Hello to you all
 
The idea that the shady "military-industrial complex" runs the US wars is quite naive to say the least. This idea was propagated by none other than Eisenhower, the guy who literally shape the modern middle east and used coups, assassinations an intimidation to force the US policy.
 
What he meant by the quote above isn't that these guys make war, they simply can't nor even want to. These guys live on international tension which is actually much better for them than war itself since it has the same effect (more sales/money for weapon's developement) but not the same outcome (human/military losses).
 
The problem with the US ever since Reagan came is the exponential growth in political corruption that has happened in the US. Before that there was corruption but there was responsibility as well. Just look at HC. The current HC bill is about the same The republicans (not the dems but republicans) proposed early in the 90s yet just look at the shift in political positions that happened because of the power of corporations (since that bill as well as all what the republicans ever propose has nothing to do with conservatism).
 
When it comes to foreign policy the situation is even more freightening. The foreign policy of the US is hatched not in Washington but Tel Aviv. AIPAC is the only lobbying organisation that can summon the enitre House and most of the senate to its conference and the guys even those who live in places where there are no jews come to pledge their political alliagence. As Alistaire Horne said its the Israeli tail that waggs the American dog in a comment on the war in Iraq abd GWB's foreign policy in general.
 
This war has nothing to do with economics nor nukes, it is just another if Israel's series "let's use the US as a proxy to Us to distroy countries that we can't distroy". They tried it against Syria but Syria was too smart for them and had too many friends but Iran is a pariah state with no friends.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 21:42
Probably.  But the arms industry has made a killing over the last decade.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 21:46
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

But it's always interesting that Americans in general refuse to acept that most people are working class.
 
If you go to work and your employer tells you what to do that makes you working class. Even if you are technically self-employed, but you only do what the client tells you to do, then you are still working class.
 
If you decide for yourself what should be done, or you tell the client what he should do, then that makes you middle class. Most people don't make the cut.


Yep. Tony Hayward (*250k per annum) has everything in common with Frank Gallagher LOL


Class traditionally is defined by occupation type.  It is an Americanism to define it by earnings.  And if by "everything in common with" you mean materialistic wealth then that I suppose is valid since classification is multi-faceted. That's the get out clause of the Americanism.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Seko- View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 21:50
They have in more ways than one - made a killing. Yet war is a monetary black hole that the taxpayers get shafted with. One industry that is lucrative is the military industry. Oops I forgot another. Working for the Government is secure too unless one works for the State of California. Aren't those poor souls working at minimum wage? Anyway I digress, not too many citizens have such cushy jobs to work for Haliburton, Boeing and such. 
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 22:04
Don't forget munitions, that is big business.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Seko- View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 22:29
good point but the thing is that how big can munitions employment be in times of war over any other year? At best hire another shift? In the greater picture that doesn't even turn out to be a blip on the economical radar for the country as a whole. Plus in down years we still have our allies to sell to. The arms business continues yet houses still end up in foreclosure across the board for the rest of us.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 22:37
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Don't forget munitions, that is big business.
 
If you are fighting a WWII type war.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 22:52
Yea because hell-fire missiles were big business in WWII.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 22:55
Do you even know what Hell-fire missiles are used for?
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 22:57
What type? Thermobaric or high explosive?
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 23:03
Its primarily anti-tank. The Taliban don't have any tanks last time I checked.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 23:11
Thermobaric is anti-personnel, especially used for buildings or enclosed spaces in rugged terrain to get in behind cover. 

Munitions are big business simply because of the fact that weapons are useless without them, WWII or modern.  Modern munitions, especially air munitions and increasingly laser guided artillery ARE highly profitable.  End of.

"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 23:19
But how much of the actual weapons are high tech? The overwhelming majority of weapons used in Iraq or Afghanistan are weapons that have been in existence since WWI or even before. Mines, ordinary artillery/mortar, different types of guns etc. The only use for Hellfire in the current wars is the UAVs that regularly fire on sights in Pakistan and if you count the entire incidents they are only 127 ones (as of 25th) and the number of missiles and casualties is quite small.
 
Al-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 27 Jul 2010 at 23:20
Back to Top
Seko- View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 01:17
Zagros you keep going on about defense spending being big business, which it is. Huge in fact. The biggest in the whole world. The US dominates the international arms market. $533.8 billion in requested spending this year alone (weapons procurement, maintenance and personnel costs). Yet you missed the point. How much does it increase (military spending) when we are directly involved in an operational war versus times of non-military hostilities? My point has been that it is not different enough to shoulder an American economy let alone enable the average citizen enough dough to buy bread. Peace or war we will still making, spending and selling arms. 
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 11:58
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

That's an interesting definition which makes sense to me, is it one you've deduced or is that what you base the working and middle classifications on?
 
I owe it to Joe Bageant in Deer Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War. Another facet of the definition is who determines what your pay should be?
 
I recommend the book in general. Click this for the Amazon reviews.


Edited by gcle2003 - 28 Jul 2010 at 12:03
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 15:49
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Zagros you keep going on about defense spending being big business, which it is. Huge in fact. The biggest in the whole world. The US dominates the international arms market. $533.8 billion in requested spending this year alone (weapons procurement, maintenance and personnel costs). Yet you missed the point. How much does it increase (military spending) when we are directly involved in an operational war versus times of non-military hostilities? My point has been that it is not different enough to shoulder an American economy let alone enable the average citizen enough dough to buy bread. Peace or war we will still making, spending and selling arms. 


I didn't keep going on about it, I just highlighted another facet of it, because I am a details man, and then AJ decided to get wise with me hence the perception of going on about it


Edited by Zagros - 28 Jul 2010 at 15:50
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Location: Alberta, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1980
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 19:49
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello to you all
 
The idea that the shady "military-industrial complex" runs the US wars is quite naive to say the least. This idea was propagated by none other than Eisenhower, the guy who literally shape the modern middle east and used coups, assassinations an intimidation to force the US policy.
 
In the face of an equally determined Soviet Union which was attempting to dominate not just Asia but the globe.
 
Quote What he meant by the quote above isn't that these guys make war, they simply can't nor even want to. These guys live on international tension which is actually much better for them than war itself since it has the same effect (more sales/money for weapon's developement) but not the same outcome (human/military losses).
 
Eisenhower was warning of the dangers to a democratic nation of more and more policies being formulated and implemented out of sight of public scrutiny because of the need for a large standing military and defence sector to counteract the Soviet buildup and support of aggressive regimes like in North Korea.
 
Quote The problem with the US ever since Reagan came is the exponential growth in political corruption that has happened in the US. Before that there was corruption but there was responsibility as well. Just look at HC. The current HC bill is about the same The republicans (not the dems but republicans) proposed early in the 90s yet just look at the shift in political positions that happened because of the power of corporations (since that bill as well as all what the republicans ever propose has nothing to do with conservatism).
 
Once again what's going on is largely due to lack of clear public scrutiny, and an erosion of the democratic process in America.
 
Quote When it comes to foreign policy the situation is even more freightening. The foreign policy of the US is hatched not in Washington but Tel Aviv. AIPAC is the only lobbying organisation that can summon the enitre House and most of the senate to its conference and the guys even those who live in places where there are no jews come to pledge their political alliagence. As Alistaire Horne said its the Israeli tail that waggs the American dog in a comment on the war in Iraq abd GWB's foreign policy in general.
 
Israel does have a strong lobby in Washington, but so do nations like Saudi Arabia.
 
Quote This war has nothing to do with economics nor nukes, it is just another if Israel's series "let's use the US as a proxy to Us to distroy countries that we can't distroy". They tried it against Syria but Syria was too smart for them and had too many friends but Iran is a pariah state with no friends.
 
Al-Jassas
 
It's a little more complex than that, people are genuinely worried about an Iran with nukes. There's been so much rhetoric over the decades about the evil of the religious fundamentalists in power in Iran that it's easy to manipulate that for a number of different agendas. Oil is still a big driver in the current tensions.
 
 


Edited by DukeC - 28 Jul 2010 at 19:56
we have a blind date with destiny..and it looks like she's ordered the lobster
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.