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Was Jesus an Essene?

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    Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 03:23
Was Jesus an Essene?  I have heard others intimate a connection between Jesus and the Essenes, but I don't really know the arguments pro or con.  Or maybe one should ask, to what degree was Jesus an Essene?  He is Jewish and they're Jewish, is there any more resemblance than that?

I would like hear what people think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 02:10
The synoptic gospels say that one should not swear.  In other words, one should say what is true, but not swear by god(s) or the hair on one's head (may God strike me bald!).  The prohibition against swearing is a characteristic of the Essenes as mentioned by Josephus.

The synoptic gospels are Matthew. Mark, and Luke.  They share common sources, I forget which or if all have the prohibition against swearing.

John the Baptist is often thought of as an Essene, an ascetic prophetic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 04:49
It makes sense that Jesus would be an Essene. Yet "Essene" is Philo's word for them.
What were they known as before 62 AD in Palestine ?-seems important. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 05:52
As I understand it, the Essenes were a sect of Judaism, so does it necessarily follow that Jesus was  an Essene?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2018 at 13:14
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

As I understand it, the Essenes were a sect of Judaism, so does it necessarily follow that Jesus was  an Essene?


IMHO-
If Jesus was a part of any Judean sect it could have only been the Essenes.

Saul of Tarsus, (later known as St Paul) was a Pharisee they lean a bit towards the fascist edge and wanted to wipe out followers of Jesus. 

Saudducee were the ruling class, heavily ritualized and political. Ciaphas, known for turning Jesus over to Pontius Pilate, was a Saudducee.

The Zealots may have liked Jesus but he wasn't pushing a violent overthrow of anything, not his style.

So, Essenes-"children of light" were focused in the spiritual, mystical experience and less of the material world. They were dualistic and I do get hung up on that. 
However, Jesus does criticize the priests of the temple and is angered over the sale of sacrificial animals in the temple. Essenes were waiting for some celestial justice, Jesus is far above revenge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2018 at 02:01
Josephus uses the term "Essene."  I don't know if there are any references to Essenes in the Dead Sea Scrolls (Qumran), probably not.

Of course, don't forget the Samaritans, who Jesus mentioned in favorable terms (albeit as a way of criticizing Levites and the Priestly cast).  The Samaritans formed in Samaria c. 350 BC and had their own Temple.  They recognized only Torah (Pentateuch), and recognized that the messiah would come from the lineage of Joseph, but not of David.  Samaria is in what was the Northern kingdom of Israel, whereas Jerusalem was in the Southern kingdom of Judea.  Israel was wiped out first, and then later, Judea was conquered, and there was the Babylonian captivity.  They were unified under David and Solomon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2018 at 02:42
Quote If Jesus was a part of any Judean sect it could have only been the Essenes.

I've emboldened and underlined one word, which, IMHO, makes all the difference. AFAIK, the Bible doesn't mention anywhere that he was or wasn't.

There were obviously some sects that he wasn't a member of. Did he, if he ever existed, have to belong to one of the sects?

Again, absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence-either way.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2018 at 06:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote If Jesus was a part of any Judean sect it could have only been the Essenes.

I've emboldened and underlined one word, which, IMHO, makes all the difference. AFAIK, the Bible doesn't mention anywhere that he was or wasn't.

There were obviously some sects that he wasn't a member of. Did he, if he ever existed, have to belong to one of the sects?

Again, absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence-either way.


He knew the Jewish Law and he knew the Prophets that's not disputed. Jesus has missing years no accounts offered from age 13 to 30.
Maybe he was in the Dead Sea learning esoteric teachings and ritual.
Jesus leaves us with the most recognized ritual in 2000 years, maybe the Last Supper and Communion are inspired by practices of the Essenes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2018 at 07:28
Quote He knew the Jewish Law and he knew the Prophets that's not disputed. Jesus has missing years no accounts offered from age 13 to 30.

He could also ahve been heavily involved in raising a family and providing for them.


Quote Maybe he was in the Dead Sea learning esoteric teachings and ritual.

Anything's possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2018 at 01:59
Anything is possible?  So you acknowledge the validity of miracles?  I mean if you do, cool, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

There are non-canonical stories of him as a young man.

toyomotor, you use absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence way too often..... There is evidence, inside and outside of the New Testament.  There is archaeological evidence, maybe not for what you want, but it is there.  And then there is evidence that we just haven't put together yet, but because yesterday was different than tomorrow, we know it will develop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2018 at 03:09
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Anything is possible?  So you acknowledge the validity of miracles?  I mean if you do, cool, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

There are non-canonical stories of him as a young man.

toyomotor, you use absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence way too often..... There is evidence, inside and outside of the New Testament.  There is archaeological evidence, maybe not for what you want, but it is there.  And then there is evidence that we just haven't put together yet, but because yesterday was different than tomorrow, we know it will develop.

1. No, you're twisting the point I was making. I was referring to the post only.

2. No, and again I was referring to the post only. I don't believe in miracles or luck.

3. SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE.

4. If the evidence hasn't been put together yet, how to you claim it as evidence?

5. Are you using the Bible, known to be more myth than fact, as your reference?

6. Prove to me that he even existed.

Vanuatu mentioned a 17year period when there is a blank in this person's life, according to......?

I claimed that, if he existed at all, he could have been working to provide for his family, not lollygagging around the synagogues. No more-no less.




Edited by toyomotor - 02 Feb 2018 at 03:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2018 at 13:19
toyomotor,
Not everyone embraces miracles for me anything is possible, I do believe in miracles & we are talking about belief not facts.
These ideas about Jesus are meant to be argued and beliefs do evolve. The evidence proves that the gospels are authentic works from the time period, archaeology etc. 

Personally I like exploring idea that the crucifixion was a literary event and that Jesus was a historical figure forged into a legend because he was enlightened. 

I don't think we can prove Jesus lived in the same way historians prove facts about ancient history, clearly that has not stopped the persistence of the idea of Jesus. This is an example of how Jesus' lefe story is still evolving. 
Outside of the New Testament canon, we have only one more extensive narrative of Jesus' suffering and death, and that has appeared in the Gospel of Peter. Now it was known in ancient times that there was such a thing as the Gospel of Peter. Eusebius of Caesarea, the earliest church historian at the beginning of the 4th century, tells about the fact that there was a Gospel of Peter which was used by some communities in Syria.But no one really knew what was in this gospel until at the end of the last century papyrus was discovered, which was a small amulet that a soldier had been wearing around his neck and which was given into the tomb of this soldier, and when it was opened up it turned out to be a text that told the story of the suffering and death and resurrection of Jesus. But it is told in such a way that one can assume that it was not dependent upon the canonical gospels that we have. But that at least part of this gospel goes back to the same story, but draws from the oral tradition of the telling of that story


fransicosan, agree, the non canonical writings are more important than the church's version of events.
Jesus would not have necessarily belonged to any sect but then how could he become educated?
I agree if he was involved in a sect it would have been the Essenes because they were healers. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2018 at 13:56
Franciscosan
Quote toyomotor,
Not everyone embraces miracles for me anything is possible, I do believe in miracles & we are talking about belief not facts.
These ideas about Jesus are meant to be argued and beliefs do evolve. The evidence proves that the gospels are authentic works from the time period, archaeology etc.

1. Believing something doesn't make it so.

2. The Bible was compiled some 300 years after the death of Jesus. True, there are documents which speak to the actuality of events recorded, but Hans Christian Anderson also wrote stories too. I would agree with you that some of the information contained in the New Testament could have a basis in fact, but not all of it.

Quote Personally I like exploring idea that the crucifixion was a literary event and that Jesus was a historical figure forged into a legend because he was enlightened.

3. You mean like the Mahatma Bhudda?

Quote I don't think we can prove Jesus lived in the same way historians prove facts about ancient history, clearly that has not stopped the persistence of the idea of Jesus. This is an example of how Jesus' life story is still evolving.

4. Of course you can't prove that he ever existed, or that his deeds were performed as recorded. I could go along with the fact that he wasn't dead when removed from the cross, was taken to the cave and attended to, and then spirited away by supporters. That is if he ever existed. If his life story is still evolving, what's left to reveal, that he was an interstellar traveller? I like the idea that he, his wife Mary (Magdalene) and their family moved to Southern France where they either founded or became part of the Merovingian family. Prove that it didn't happen!!!

Quote Outside of the New Testament canon, we have only one more extensive narrative of Jesus' suffering and death, and that has appeared in the Gospel of Peter. Now it was known in ancient times that there was such a thing as the Gospel of Peter. Eusebius of Caesarea, the earliest church historian at the beginning of the 4th century, tells about the fact that there was a Gospel of Peter which was used by some communities in Syria.But no one really knew what was in this gospel until at the end of the last century papyrus was discovered, which was a small amulet that a soldier had been wearing around his neck and which was given into the tomb of this soldier, and when it was opened up it turned out to be a text that told the story of the suffering and death and resurrection of Jesus. But it is told in such a way that one can assume that it was not dependent upon the canonical gospels that we have. But that at least part of this gospel goes back to the same story, but draws from the oral tradition of the telling of that story

Nor throughout history was there any mention of Jesus' brother, James (The Just)-what other siblings did he have, I've forgotten. And why was the fact of James' existence kept from us for nearly 2000 years? What else has been kept from us?

 
Quote
fransicosan, agree, the non canonical writings are more important than the church's version of events.
Jesus would not have necessarily belonged to any sect but then how could he become educated?
I agree if he was involved in a sect it would have been the Essenes because they were healers.

So, now if in those days you were educated at all, you must have belonged to a sect? Is that what you're saying?

And what level of education did he achieve?

But once again you've managed to drag us away from the OP.

The question was, "Was Jesus and Essene?"

There's no proof either way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2018 at 14:32
Quote 1. Believing something doesn't make it so.

Prove it! lol

Quote 2. The Bible was compiled some 300 years after the death of Jesus. True, there are documents which speak to the actuality of events recorded, but Hans Christian Anderson also wrote stories too. I would agree with you that some of the information contained in the New Testament could have a basis in fact, but not all of it.
So do Anderson's stories. Everything we perceive is structured around the facts that we BELIEVE.
Yes some things are more easily believed than others, healthy skepticism and an open mind are necessary.
Yes I do see Jesus as Buddha-type master healer.


Quote I like the idea that he, his wife Mary (Magdalene) and their family moved to Southern France where they either founded or became part of the Merovingian family.
I like that idea too.
Quote Prove that it didn't happen!!!
Why would I try that? I gain nothing.
Quote  Nor throughout history was there any mention of Jesus' brother, James (The Just)-what other siblings did he have, I've forgotten. And why was the fact of James' existence kept from us for nearly 2000 years? What else has been kept from us?
I didn't know this about James, never heard this my friend.

Quote so, now if in those days you were educated at all, you must have belonged to a sect? Is that what you're saying?
It follows that poor people would not be educated in the time of Christ. You disagree?


 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2018 at 01:05
Vanuatu

I've mentioned in other posts that agnosticism has come to me later in life.

When I was young, I attended church every Sunday-and listened!

James (The Just) was never mentioned. Nor any suggestion of a more than friendly relationship between Mary Magdalene and Jesus.

In fact, the thought of Jesus having siblings would have been heresy.

I agree with your last point, but the son of a humble carpenter, I would have thought, would not have qualified as being wealthy.

All I'm saying, is that there is no proof, either way, of Jesus being an Essene, not that it makes a difference.

So what if he was?

Who started this thread anyway?Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2018 at 11:27
Quote I agree with your last point, but the son of a humble carpenter, I would have thought, would not have qualified as being wealthy.

Essene would have had a merit based system much like Australian Immigration.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 08:02
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Quote I agree with your last point, but the son of a humble carpenter, I would have thought, would not have qualified as being wealthy.

Essene would have had a merit based system much like Australian Immigration.
 

How do you know that?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 17:41
http://www.setapartpeople.com/essenes
"Covenant Renewals"


Lot's of Rules 'n Reg's. Money wasn't required. The link shows the numbered documents from Qumran related to initiates and origins.
A stranger wouldn't get near the Covenant of Grace until they were deemed worthy. Yet in the community at Qumran, women and children of "Strangers" lived around the Essene. If a Stranger  had  possessions he turned it over (which accounts for all the loot at the site) and he could become an initiate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 22:31
It is (probably) necessary but not sufficient that someone be Jewish in order to be an Essene, if someone is not Jewish than they are not an Essene, therefore being Jewish is necessary evidence for being an Essene.  John the Baptist is often characterized as an Essene, Jesus is characterized as a disciple (follower) of John the Baptist, therefore, if John was an Essene, and Jesus was a follower of John, then was Jesus an Essene.
Of course, Jesus could be something else.  Something new.  But wouldn't there be 'Essenism' in Jesus' background?
But as far as John the Baptist is concerned, sure he is not 'called' Essene, but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

There are something like 8 to 10 gospels known, 4 canonical, and then others non-canonical.  Plus other sources, but hey, I don't know that you exist, toyomotor;) so how can I be "sure" that Jesus 'existed/exists'?  You wouldn't be skeptical about a claim of someone from antiquity is that claim didn't contain miracle accounts.  Be honest about what is bothering you, you don't like the miracle claims.  No?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 01:54
And your proof is?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 03:28
My proof of what?

Scholars divide Jews of the 1st century BC into Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, maybe Hellenized Jews (or Herodians?), there may be others.

John the Baptist as an Essene is something put forth in New Testament class.   Both are ascetic.  Is it certain, no.  Is it something that can be reasonably entertained, yes.

Gospel of Thomas, and fragments of Gospel of Mary are in Nag Hammadi library, plus maybe a couple others in there (Gnostic), Gospel of Judas.  

"Jesus an Essene?" is a question.  One is dealing with inductive evidence, which by its very nature cannot be 100% conclusive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 06:07
Ho hum!!

Does it really matter?

I thought he was a shepherd, son of a carpenter.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 16:08
Paul definitely takes the Jesus story to a place that the Nazarene Essenes were not going. Paul's idea about Rome and the Law were meant to establish a church and he succeeds at that but Jesus was practicing an arcane spirituality and seeing new ideas.

"In 60 C.E., when incoming procurator Festus indicated that he was willing to hand Paul over to the Sanhedrin for trial, Paul declared himself a Roman citizen and demanded trial before Nero." 
"That Paul was not born a Roman citizen is certain. Most likely he was granted denization papers about 48 CE by Sergius Paulus, proconsul of Cyprus, whom Paul converted to Christianity and whose name he thereafter adopted (Acts 13:6-12). Paul's prudence in concealing his Roman status for a decade was confirmed by the consequences of his enforced revelation. Jacob [James] had barely tolerated Paul to begin with. At the news that Paul had accepted citizenship from the hated occupying power, Jacob in effect excommunicated him. Envoys were sent from Jerusalem to convert all of Paul's Christian communities to Nazirite Judaism. All cooperation between the Nazirites and Paul's gentile followers ceased, and the way was open for a Christian (John Markos was a Nazirite) to write the Gospel of Mark (as it was later called), which all but repudiated Jesus' Jewishness." 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 16:10
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Ho hum!!

Does it really matter?

I thought he was a shepherd, son of a carpenter.

 
Yes.
Are you equating Ego = Value?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 19:34
I am not sure what Vanuatu is asking, toyomotor, as far as "does it really matter?" 
well it matters, to me, but does not necessarily have to matter for you 
(now that I think of it, I guess that is what Vanuatu is saying?  Vanuatu?)
Jesus would have been a carpenter, trained in the family business, he
might have done some shepherding, although I don't know if the Bible 
describes him actually doing shepherding.  Shepherding becomes
metaphorical, taking care of the flock. fleecing them and turning them
into mutton (well, maybe not the last two things<grin> )

I did not know of the Nazarites.  But, I am sure that there were many,
many Jewish and thus later Christian subgroups.  As the saying goes,
two Jews, three opinions....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 20:10
Well subgroups yes, the Judean People's Front , the People's Front of Judea :)

And yes being a prominent figure in the world would not exclude you from being a spiritual teacher it just isn't necessary. 


Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Feb 2018 at 14:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2018 at 02:14
Franciscosan & Vanuatu

When I was a regular church attendee, there was never any debate about whether Jesus was an Essene or not.

While, in this day and age it may be of interest to speculate on this, my point is, does it make any difference to the Christian faith or not. I don't think so. Those who believe will continue to do so, while grumpy old agnostics like me will sit and wait for some conclusive proof.

In other posts, I've questioned whether or not Jesus and the whole story was fact or just a bunch of stories to enhance the mystique of a myth. Let's not even touch on the Old Testament which is so obviously, IMHO, fantasy.

Along these lines, I foundan article in Ancient Origins, which broadly suggests that the Jesus story has some fairly close parallels  with stories of people who long preceeded him.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2018 at 02:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Franciscosan & Vanuatu

When I was a regular church attendee, there was never any debate about whether Jesus was an Essene or not.

While, in this day and age it may be of interest to speculate on this, my point is, does it make any difference to the Christian faith or not. I don't think so. Those who believe will continue to do so, while grumpy old agnostics like me will sit and wait for some conclusive proof.

In other posts, I've questioned whether or not Jesus and the whole story was fact or just a bunch of stories to enhance the mystique of a myth. Let's not even touch on the Old Testament which is so obviously, IMHO, fantasy.

Along these lines, I foundan article in Ancient Origins, which broadly suggests that the Jesus story has some fairly close parallels  with stories of people who long preceeded him.




Hi toyomotor
Agree. It's the Greek then Romanized view of archetypes and heroes. One also finds "Son of Man" "Son of God" and "The Word" in arcane literature. Who directed the narrative and continued the story? I guess Byzantium did at a critical time.

Certainly likely that hundreds of thousands of people have come and gone from the world having mystic or spiritual strengths that helped people in the their own time. The healers were concerned with preserving knowledge and go to great lengths to keep valuable information secret. The Roman Catholic Church was intent on driving a very specific message about need for redemption.

It's the gospels canonical -and not- which are convincing to me. Even there we see that some mistranslated words and phrases have helped to skew the nature of what Jesus was teaching. Which seems to be Nazarine Essene "Way" as described in the Dead Sea Scrolls.  
**yet there are clear distinctions to be sure


Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Feb 2018 at 16:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 19:45
Is toyomotor a member of the British Commonwealth?  I have never heard it said that toyomotor is a member of the British Commonwealth.  It must not be important.....  Some people would like it to appear like Jesus came out of nowhere, and had no influences other than those expressly stated in Canonical scripture.  Other people of course, might like to explain _away_ Jesus as one of many "dying" god figures in the ancient world.

No, the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible is not fantasy, besides the laws, proverbs, psalms, apocalypses.  The Hebrew Bible is an example of "history" before history as a genre existed.   The Greeks considered their mythology to be an extension/precursor to their history.  Yahweh is a lot less fanciful than the Olympians, the Iliad or the Odyssey. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 00:00
Franciscosan wrote
Quote Is toyomotor a member of the British Commonwealth?  I have never heard it said that toyomotor is a member of the British Commonwealth.

If you've never heard it said, you've probably not seen it in writing either. Yes, toyomotor is a loyal member of the British Commonwealth. Plenty of documentation to confirm that-Google British Commonwealth and Australian Citizens.

Quote No, the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible is not fantasy, besides the laws, proverbs, psalms, apocalypses.  The Hebrew Bible is an example of "history" before history as a genre existed.   The Greeks considered their mythology to be an extension/precursor to their history. 

Now, you have to be kidding me. 

Quote Genesis 5, the Book of the Generations of Adam, lists the descendants of Adam from Seth to Noah with their ages at the birth of their first sons (except Adam himself, for whom his age at the birth of Seth, his third son, is given) and their ages at death (Adam lives 930 years). from Wiki

No-one lives to be 930 years old. And this is only one example. There are a lot more, Methusla for example.

Believe what you like, it's not within my remit to tell you what to believe and what not to believe.


It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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