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We Never Saw it Coming

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    Posted: 14 Apr 2018 at 13:42
Iran has a lot of drones floating around Iraq & Syria maybe Israel starts hitting targets next.
The recent airstrike in Syria attributed to Israel has brought to the forefront Iran’s intentions of establishing a network of drones (unmanned aerial vehicles) in that country. The project could expand the Islamic Republic’s capabilities of gathering intelligence and prepare the groundwork for possible attacks

I guess we might as well be seen for the pawns that we are. Wouldn't a nice solar wind shut down the machines? We could back to year one.

The US Army recently announced that it is developing the first drones that can spot and target vehicles and people using artificial intelligence (AI). This is a big step forward. Whereas current military drones are still controlled by people, this new technology will decide who to kill with almost no human involvement.

Once complete, these drones will represent the ultimate militarization of AI and trigger vast legal and ethical implications for wider society. There is a chance that warfare will move from fighting to extermination, losing any semblance of humanity in the process. At the same time, it could widen the sphere of warfare so that the companies, engineers and scientists building AI become valid military targets.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-army-is-developing-unmanned-drones-that-can-decide-who-to-kill-2018-4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 19:20
Depersonalisation of war, in recent times, started with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Development of Cruise Missiles depersonalise war even more.

I think that, as technology develops, human beings won't figure at all in the toll of war. Cybernetic attacks will interfere with infrastructure, communications and finances. 

A country will be brought to it's knees without a shot being fired.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 07:29
Self targeting drones, death from above, for one side at least.  Where is the accountability?  Where is the virtue, the "arete," the "manliness"?  Shouldn't there be a (human) cost to war?  Is it a good idea for war to be that "clean"?

We make a distinction between combatants and noncombatants, and we think that targeting the later should be off-limits.  (collateral damage is another issue).  But, if there are no combatants on one side, because everything is AIs selecting and targeting, then the distinction no longer makes sense.  If it no longer makes sense (because every _body_ is a non-combatant, and yet war is still happening), then why should the enemy make a distinction, why not have _every_body_ as a legitimate target??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 12:08
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote  Matthew 13:13 
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables: because they seeing see not; 
and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand

Maybe they're just looking around.
Self Navigating Death Star?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 12:03
Quote  Matthew 13:13 
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables: because they seeing see not; 
and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand

Maybe they're just looking around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 11:50
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Quote What then?"
Exploring other realms of existence? Outer space, under water, preserving plant and animal DNA. There is so much to do if only we put our collective minds to it.


I would much prefer to see money spent on improving life on earth rather than space exploration.

You're right, so much to do.
If we could put our heads together the first thing we should do is feed and shelter everyone. Then move forward. Maybe that's why the aliens are back. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 11:06
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Quote What then?"
Exploring other realms of existence? Outer space, under water, preserving plant and animal DNA. There is so much to do if only we put our collective minds to it.


I would much prefer to see money spent on improving life on earth rather than space exploration.

You're right, so much to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 10:27
Quote What then?"
Exploring other realms of existence? Outer space, under water, preserving plant and animal DNA. There is so much to do if only we put our collective minds to it.


Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 15:57
Quote A problem with rights, is that they are dependent on humans, or in other words, the government giveth, and the government taketh it away. 

No, it's a matter of give and take.

We keep on giving, they keep on taking.

Quote So, what are we today with all the ivory art throughout history?  Are we supposed to destroy it?  Or are we supposed to just give it all to museums?  The museum curators would love that, but a problem is that the museums are really just mausoleums, where culturally dead things go to decay.  Solve one problem of dead animals, create another problem of dead art.

No, a line would have to be drawn in the sand, like the UK. No ivory products after a certain date, proof to be on seller that the ivory was taken before the cut off date.

I know, there are unscrupulous people out there who will still buy and sell. Law enforcement would have to step up all over the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 07:09
The Earth will survive just fine, until the sun swells up.

A problem with rights, is that they are dependent on humans, or in other words, the government giveth, and the government taketh it away.  The Government can protect against, say, oil development off the Florida coast, until the government decides otherwise (except off the coast where Trump golf courses are.)

So, what are we today with all the ivory art throughout history?  Are we supposed to destroy it?  Or are we supposed to just give it all to museums?  The museum curators would love that, but a problem is that the museums are really just mausoleums, where culturally dead things go to decay.  Solve one problem of dead animals, create another problem of dead art.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2018 at 11:27
Caldrail wrote
Quote Do we apply the right to exist to Rhino's? Of course, it's the humane thing to do. That's why Rhino populations get protection, but then, we also happen to be the source of the Rhino's greatest threat because so many of our global members believe that Rhino horn has beneficial properties and pay good money to obtain it.

The biggest danger to this planet is human kind, IMHO.

While we in the west condemn the killing of animals for their skins, teeth and ivory, in other parts of the world the killing of some wild animals, although outlawed, is a thriving business.

The UK has for some years had a ban on the sale of ivory products from animals killed post 1947. But that's very hard to police, so now it proposes to ban the sale of all ivory products. Well done the UK.

While this post started out looking at future technology, there's no reason why we can't include things like decimation of animal stocks world wide. Thanks to human kind, many birds and animals have become extinct, and there are many more on the threatened species list, and we never saw it coming?




Edited by toyomotor - 05 Apr 2018 at 11:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 20:39
Quote Do rhinos have a right to exist?  
Using Rhino's as an example then, we have to realise that 'rights' are legal properties established by human beings. Out there in Nature it's survival of the fittest, and a great many species have come and gone without any interference from human beings. We ourselves have no actual 'right' to exist in those terms, and in fact we're the last species of human being left - the others have died out - and should consider ourselves darn lucky to be here at all given that we came back from the brink of extinction in distant prehistory.
 
Do we apply the right to exist to Rhino's? Of course, it's the humane thing to do. That's why Rhino populations get protection, but then, we also happen to be the source of the Rhino's greatest threat because so many of our global members believe that Rhino horn has beneficial properties and pay good money to obtain it.
 
I also note the recent move toward a total ban on ivory sale in Britain.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 16:00

Quote from https://www.google.com.au/search?=maslow%27s+hierarchy+of+needs&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU786AU786&oq=Mazlo&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.6340j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 Maslow proposed that motivation is the result of a person's attempt at fulfilling five basic needs: physiological, safety, social, esteem and self-actualization.

If we accept Maslow's Theory, the takeover of human roles by automatons would result in non-satisfaction of most of our basic needs.

I don't think that I need to go into each of the categories to explain why we wouldn't meet those needs. Human kind would, in the main, become irrelevant, with only a few being employed to serve the needs of the automaton-engineering; writing new code; ironing out bugs, and so on.

What then?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 07:37
Yep!  You guessed it.  Probably only important people as part of their security detail would have human drivers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:29
Sudden fleets of driver-less cars? 
Will people even be allowed to drive once we are no longer needed for manual labor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 17:59
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Quote How about the very basic computers which replaced Cash Registers?
toyomotor, did the police have portable telephones in cars after WW2? 

I think the US implemented mobile radio communications in about the early 1930's, so the answer is yes.

From memory, European police were a lot slower to have radios in their cars, but a few in the UK had Morse radio facilities back as far as the late 1920's.

When you say portable telephones, the big, bulky sending/receiving equipment was mounted in the boot or the back seat. Cables ran to the front seat with the handset, early ones shaped like a telephone, mounted on or near the dash board.

(When I was a rookie walking the beat, we had no radios and had to contact the station from a Police Telephone Box-which was locked to the public. If we arrested someone, say for drunken behaviour, it was usually the case that you would drag them kicking and fighting all the way back to the police station. In the UK and some other places, like France, the police were issued with whistles with which to summon assistance.)


Edited by toyomotor - 01 Apr 2018 at 18:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 14:45
Quote How about the very basic computers which replaced Cash Registers?
toyomotor, did the police have portable telephones in cars after WW2? 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 14:35
Quote Since when has man "needed" things that are invented?

Right about the time another country has a new tech thing. US & China are going to the mat with AI. Chinese police use AI glasses to find fugitives in crowds through face recognition tech.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 10:50
Quote  The smart phone came first,...

How about the very basic computers which replaced Cash Registers?

Automated ticketing was up there too.

Go back to the Industrial Revolution, that's when it all started.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 08:05
Do you suppose robots will let us have "a worthwhile role in the community"?  Maybe we should ask their permission first.....  I would assume that humans _are_ the community.  I don't worry about robots ever learning how to 'think.'  Moreso, I worry about people believing that what the robot does is thinking, and thus people unconsciously limiting themselves in how they "think."

Since when has man "needed" things that are invented?  The smart phone came first, and then millions of people figured out that they couldn't "live without it".  Life existed before Facebook, twitter, google, amazon, and it wasn't half bad.  It is not that automated cars are "needed."  I just don't think that you are going to be able to put the genie back in the bottle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 23:00
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Humans can't help but build things.

Yep, and far too many of them kill far too many people-cars, guns for example.

As to the OP, I think perhaps we did see it coming. Many of us are of an age where we can remember things like Dick Tracy with his wrist 'phone, Flash Gordon and moon rockets and so on. But such inventions were simply beyond our comprehension, they couldn't ever become real, could they?

Wink
For me it was the Johnny Quest wrist watch. LOL. Some of the language is shocking from those old cartoons. Lately my kid wants to watch movies from the 1980's, hehehe she can't believe how politically incorrect we were.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 19:26
Quote Humans can't help but build things.

Yep, and far too many of them kill far too many people-cars, guns for example.

As to the OP, I think perhaps we did see it coming. Many of us are of an age where we can remember things like Dick Tracy with his wrist 'phone, Flash Gordon and moon rockets and so on. But such inventions were simply beyond our comprehension, they couldn't ever become real, could they?

Technology has advanced with such speed that we get only glimpses of what could be before it becomes fact. Minute robots churning through our bodies to perform some life changing surgery are fact-NOW. Artificial body parts are fact, transplanting organs from animals to humans is fact.

I don't have much doubt that autonomous vehicles on our roads will become fact as soon as the technology and infrastructure are made safe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 13:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I think that the rush to automate many human functions will not serve us (humanity) well into the future.

Ignoring Franciscosans vacuous diatribe above, IMHO, humans must have some worthwhile activity, a worthwhile role to play in the community, it's what makes it a community. If robots take away many of the jobs now performed by humans there won't be jobs to replace them and humankind will simply become an irrelevance.

The thought of robots having the intelligence to build and direct other robots is a scary thought indeed.


Being cyborgs would be good. I wouldn't say no to a bionic knee or kidney. You have mentioned the medical advances, AI -nano machines will fill the blood stream and remove disease.
Or of course, world domination in the Age of Machines. Humans can't help but build things. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 11:09
I think that the rush to automate many human functions will not serve us (humanity) well into the future.

Ignoring Franciscosans vacuous diatribe above, IMHO, humans must have some worthwhile activity, a worthwhile role to play in the community, it's what makes it a community. If robots take away many of the jobs now performed by humans there won't be jobs to replace them and humankind will simply become an irrelevance.

The thought of robots having the intelligence to build and direct other robots is a scary thought indeed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2018 at 14:01
Some companies already scaling back timing and testing on their self driving cars, Uber got rid of safety sensors on their cars two years ago. Their cars have trouble in the same terrain and they knew that- then still reduced human safety drivers to one. Negligent, hope they are litigated out of existence.  

All was not well with Uber’s self-driving car project before the fatal crash this past Sunday in Arizona, which has prompted widespread criticism of the ride-hailing giant’s approach to autonomous vehicle development and forced the company to pause much of its operations surrounding the technology.
This included issues that involved operators of the fleet of Volvo XC90s — like the one that killed 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg in Tempe, Arizona on Sunday — to intervene more often than engineers expected, something that seriously threatened to delay the company’s implementation of self-driving technology. 


Edited by Vanuatu - 29 Mar 2018 at 14:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2018 at 08:29
Finally looked at the clip, I'll bet the car said to it self, "if the idiot is just going to stand there, I think I'll run him over!"

My cousin ran over someone late on a stormy night, walking in the middle of the road, it was ruled not her fault.  Of course, it still shook her up, as it should.  Yes, there is a lot of human unpredictability, and human stupidity, and then there will be people who will drive offensively around unmanned vehicles, because they assume they can bully the programs.  An AI is not going to come back at you with road rage, after you run it off the road, although maybe it should. 

If you are worried about felons driving Uber, then unmanned vehicles could well be the answer.  Problem is that for most of America, you need a car to get around.  You can get around cities outside the East, using public transportation, but you cannot get around well.  What if you replace the bottom 10% of drivers with unmanned vehicles, plus the 20 % that cannot drive at all?  Furthermore, you can make the driving training more strict because people don't "have" to have a car anymore.

Such a system will not be perfect, but it would be better than what we have now, and it would not be static, but grow and develop.  But, no, I don't think that the U.S.A would be the first to develop it, because we (including me) have a Western paranoia about robots.  The Japanese are very comfortable about robots because they don't particularly, culturally, believe in a soul.  The West believes that humans have a soul, and often that animals have a soul, and therefore look at it a little creepy that some thang (robot) is "moving on its own."  The soul gives movement and growth in Western culture, and has a spiritual significance.  But, for the Japanese, robots are not "soulless" because there really isn't for them, a soul at all.

The worst year in traffic accidents in the US was something like 1909, enough cars on the roads, and no-one knew how to drive+ horses, and pedestrians.  But the US has a lot of traffic accidents now, and puts up with them, basically because there is no other option.  But, Honda, and GM, and Ford are putting big money into an alternative, and yes, Uber is too, despite all its other problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:19
I don't see the need for this either. All over the country the infrastructure is crumbling, we hear this daily.
Unmanned vehicles will never travel on the same roads as human drivers in my life time. 
toyomotor said it, too much human unpredictability. Those vehicles may get their own tracks above or below traffic with human drivers. Eventually it will be all machine operated.

Biggest take away for me is the criminal disregard that Uber has shown regarding safety for their drivers and customers all over the world. Hiring convicted felons who are on camera proudly not doing their jobs, is deviant behavior.
There are numerous videos showing people being run down by driver-less vehicles, it's a KNOWN_DISTINCT_ POSSIBILITY.
Soo sick of these science projects harming the public! No One Need Die for ****ing Uber!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 12:01
As a ball park comment, I think that autonomous ships and aircraft would probably be far more safe than autonomous motor vehicles, due to the lack of traffic. 

If autonomous or semi-autonomous vehicles are to be allowed to use our roads, the security of the systems needs to be hacker-proof-obviously, but also there will need to be changes to the roads and highways that they use.

That there has only been one fatality involving an autonomous vehicle is not the point. The point is, especially when talking about heavy transport, they have to be fast and efficient, within the bounds of the law, and safe.

I'm not yet convinced of the need for such vehicles in civilian life, for the Armed Forces, certainly, if the autonomous vehicles vessels and aircraft can be used to prosecute an armed conflict, minimising the loss of human life, so be it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 14:00
Just because the jet fighter pilot has a parachute, doesn't mean he is going to use it.  Unmanned studies are conducted with safety drivers for liability reasons, not necessarily because the software is bad.

One thing that will happen is, for example if a semi has a scene on it, that has a sky, the computer can get confused, or reflections can cause problems.  Including, I suppose, ice or water on a surface.

The experiments that I know of are semis hauling Coors beer between Fort Collins and Colorado Springs, and yes they do safety drivers.  But, I think all the major car companies are experimenting with it.  Yes, it does feel like Terminator rise of the robots, or something, but I think it will happen, and we will get used to it.  I think human drivers will become an elite, and rare, the rest of us (over time) will use robot cabs, or buses. or hover bikes:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 11:52
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The technology of _manned_ vehicles is still undergoing work, so yes, unmanned vehicles need further work.  But, in the time of one unmanned fatality, there has probably been 1000 manned fatalities, most due to operator error.  The question is not whether unmanned vehicles are safe, the question is, are they _more_ safe, and safe enough for us to emotionally relinquish our illusion of control? 

Further work, yes hmmm.
In fact there are no known successful unmanned studies since they can't be conducted without safety drivers. Again, it's Uber here. Banned for good reason all over the world. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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