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Western artistic expressions and others

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Carcharodon View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 22:51
Due to different historical circumstances western cultural and artistic expression has reached a wide geographic distribution and became well know over the globe. That, and other lines of reasoning, has led some people to believe that western artistic expressions have some inherent quality of superiority. This has partly led to an unwillingness to fully appreciate non western, non European expressions in literature, pictorial art, music or architecture. Ofcourse there are exceptions but it seems for example that European music and literature are more well known in China than Chinese dito in Europe or the US.
 
And there are people who for example believe that the works of Shakespeare are better or more sophisticated than for example the best written Beijing operas, the best works of Indian literature or than some examples of oral literature in Africa or among native Americans.
Some people also think that the cathedrals of the west are more sophisticated than the finest of the Maya pyramids, with their paintings and reliefs, or the temple of Borobodur in Java or some fine example of wooden temples in Japan or China.
 
Some people also seem to believe that European and European inspired Barock music has a higher value, artistically speaking, than for example traditional Amerindian music.
 
When will we be able to see through such bias and appreciate the full scope of human artistic expressions from all parts of the world?
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pinguin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 00:23
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Some people also seem to believe that European and European inspired Barock music has a higher value, artistically speaking, than for example traditional Amerindian music.

LOL.. Starting from Amerindians themselves. Try to convince the Guarayos that baroque is not theirs. And Latin American baroque was usually often song in natives languages, and many forms are preserved thanks to that!

Of course natives tunes has value, but your Talibanism is pathetic. Not even Amerindians reject fusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 00:31
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


LOL.. Starting from Amerindians themselves. Try to convince the Guarayos that baroque is not theirs. And Latin American baroque was usually often song in natives languages, and many forms are preserved thanks to that!

Of course natives tunes has value, but your Talibanism is pathetic. Not even Amerindians reject fusion.
 
Still so much old traditional music have dissapeared and are dissapearing because of western influence. But not so many have even heard about that. They prefer fusion and westernised tunes. Unfortunately we have all been indoctrinated that the west has created the best artistic expressions.
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pinguin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 00:43
Still, your Talibanism is pathetic.
You don't even know how much traditional music is preserved. And you don't know that writen music has been preserved better than the one kept by oral transmision!
Still, study please, and stop making the clown
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 00:56
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Still, your Talibanism is pathetic.
You don't even know how much traditional music is preserved. And you don't know that writen music has been preserved better than the one kept by oral transmision!
Still, study please, and stop making the clown
 
One do not have to be some Taliban to worry over the loss of traditional music and musical heritage. There are indeed traditional music preserved but also much is lost, together with the cultures it once was a part of. In some places in Latin America also the proponents of western culture have actively opposed traditional artistic expressions as a part of assimilating indigenous peoples. A good example can be read about in Lars Perssons little book The River and the Forest, where he vividly describes (based on his own observations) how missionaries and others actively worked to try to erase the artistic expressions (for example paintings on bark cloth and traditional music) of the indigenous peoples in the Vaupes area in Colombia to replace it with mass produced products from the western entertainment industry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 01:07
Another bunkum thread premised on the mystical Carcharodenese "some" with respect to fantastic juxtapositions. Chinese "opera" is not an art-form equivalent to any understanding of Western opera so to juxtapose both is idiocy! As for "traditional music" disappearing what can one say other than wonder what planet Carch is inhabiting? My own CD collection is ample evidence that as usual Carch does not have a clue as to what he's pretending to talk about!
 
"Some" people have no tastes whatsoever but hey, that's not going to cause me apoplexy even if my chewing gum does loose its flavor after sticking to the bed post overnight!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 01:14

The local traditions that sometimes are translated as operas (Beijing Opera, Shaanxi Opera and so on) is a traditional art form which still is rather popular and which have produced many sophisticated and interesting works.

And music taste is ofcourse varying, but traditional, indigenous non western musical traditions are indeed no less sophisticated or enjoyable than western music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 01:20
Cheez, I give up! If you do not recognize how ridiculous your ignorant yammerings truly are, why should I rescue you from "playing" the fool is some Commedia dell'Arte composed by a perfect idiot.

Edited by drgonzaga - 02 Jun 2011 at 01:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 01:32
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...A good example can be read about in Lars Perssons little book The River and the Forest, where he vividly describes (based on his own observations) how missionaries and others ....


Do you believe that idiot knows better than locals what was going on?
Assimilation was both ways, anyway. If you don't believe so, buy an ekeko. LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 02:21
Yes, another bunkum thread.
 
And indeed yet another example of the inherent fascism - at least totalitarianism - that underlies everything Carcharodon posts.
 
Some people may believe the African gourd harp is a superior musical instrument to the cello. Some people do not believe that. All of them are entitled to their opinions. Some people may prefer Puccini to Mozart, and some not. They're entitled to their opinion too.
 
And if most of the world want to listen to the pathetically unmelodious and simplistically rhythmic stuff that passes for music in many places today, then Sony and the rest are perfectly entitled to make money out of it, no matter how tasteless and boring I happen to find it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tashfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 02:33
There is a lot of generalisation here. In terms of the impact or global presence of 'western' music e.g. classical, pop, R&B etc one can argue that in our globalised world the impact of these forms of music has affected other musical traditions to a degree (hence 'fusion'), but it is one thing to state that and another to generalise the assumption that European Music is 'better known' or ' more 'highly regarded' in non-European countries. 
 
For example, the Classical tradition of Indian Music, and its instruments (sitar, tabla, harmonium, etc) is very strong in sub-continent, and even its 'modernised' version as represented in the Bollywood film and music industry has strong roots in that milieu, far more popular than 'western'  forms of music/opera etc...The same can be said to be true of the music of the Arab/Middle Eastern world....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 02:44
In Latin America we have our Indigenous and folk traditions well preserved, local classical music is preserved as well, but we shouldn't confuse it with the popular music that is spread by the radio.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 02:47
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

And if most of the world want to listen to the pathetically unmelodious and simplistically rhythmic stuff that passes for music in many places today,


With the due respect, not all musical styles from the jungles are tam-tamming. For instance, flute melodies of the North American indians isn't based in drum beating,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 03:12
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Yes, another bunkum thread.
 
And indeed yet another example of the inherent fascism - at least totalitarianism - that underlies everything Carcharodon posts.
 
Some people may believe the African gourd harp is a superior musical instrument to the cello. Some people do not believe that. All of them are entitled to their opinions. Some people may prefer Puccini to Mozart, and some not. They're entitled to their opinion too.
 
And if most of the world want to listen to the pathetically unmelodious and simplistically rhythmic stuff that passes for music in many places today, then Sony and the rest are perfectly entitled to make money out of it, no matter how tasteless and boring I happen to find it.
 
Yes, people can think what they like about music, but we must be careful not to destroy or neglect the many interesting and aestethically valuable traditional music forms that in at least some places in the world risk to be drowned by the products of modern mass production, sometimes with the aid of neo colonialist interests.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 03:15
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Do you believe that idiot knows better than locals what was going on?

 
Interesting choice of word, to call an anthropologist with many years experience of studying traditional indigenous art and music for an idiot. Perhaps a sign of your own ignorance?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 03:22
Originally posted by Tashfin Tashfin wrote:

There is a lot of generalisation here. In terms of the impact or global presence of 'western' music e.g. classical, pop, R&B etc one can argue that in our globalised world the impact of these forms of music has affected other musical traditions to a degree (hence 'fusion'), but it is one thing to state that and another to generalise the assumption that European Music is 'better known' or ' more 'highly regarded' in non-European countries. 
 
What I meant was that western music in some non European countries are more known than their music is known here in the west. Still in many places people know their own music better than western music.
 
But there are also cases when western music and modern fusion music  threatens the position of more traditional music forms. For example several of the chinese people I know complain over that the young generation loose some of its musical heritage.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 03:45
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
Interesting choice of word, to call an anthropologist with many years experience of studying traditional indigenous art and music for an idiot. Perhaps a sign of your own ignorance?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 05:59
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

And if most of the world want to listen to the pathetically unmelodious and simplistically rhythmic stuff that passes for music in many places today,


With the due respect, not all musical styles from the jungles are tam-tamming. For instance, flute melodies of the North American indians isn't based in drum beating,
I wasn't referring to Indian music, Amerindian music, or African music but the kind of music that comes over the car radio from the DJs when we're driving, which is pretty well all simplicistic. Don't know so much about Amerindian musc, but Indian and African drumming is frequently very subtle.
 
Certainly I have nothing against drumming, even if I'd take Gene Krupa or Buddy Rich for preference.


Edited by gcle2003 - 02 Jun 2011 at 06:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2011 at 06:06
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Tashfin Tashfin wrote:

There is a lot of generalisation here. In terms of the impact or global presence of 'western' music e.g. classical, pop, R&B etc one can argue that in our globalised world the impact of these forms of music has affected other musical traditions to a degree (hence 'fusion'), but it is one thing to state that and another to generalise the assumption that European Music is 'better known' or ' more 'highly regarded' in non-European countries. 
 
What I meant was that western music in some non European countries are more known than their music is known here in the west. Still in many places people know their own music better than western music.
 
But there are also cases when western music and modern fusion music  threatens the position of more traditional music forms. For example several of the chinese people I know complain over that the young generation loose some of its musical heritage.
That last comment has been true of every generation of English people for certainly well over a hundred years, certainly from my violin-playing, brass-band conducting grandfather to my drumming grandson. Ou sont les neiges d'antan, meaning here where are the MJQs of my youth as well as where are the Strauss waltzes of my grandfather's? 
 
Still if you want to set up as a planet-wide Cecil Sharp I've nothing against it, unless you start stopping people from playing and listening to the music they enjoy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2011 at 11:34
Interisting. I my family there is a long tradition of acoustic Spanish guitar playing. I think it comes in the genes. Curiously, grandma, daddy and my kids play the guitar, but that talent didn't show on me.

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