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Topic ClosedWestern views of Africans and African descendants

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pinguin View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 13:18
The difference is that Europeans had an advanced civilization (I said advanced, not a superb one), while S.S. Africans were jungle people.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 13:33
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The difference is that Europeans had an advanced civilization (I said advanced, not a superb one), while S.S. Africans were jungle people.
 
Well, all S S Africans did not live in the jungle (Nok, Great Zimbabwe, Engaruka, Swahili Coast, Mali Empire and others). They lived in a variety of environments and in a wide variety of societies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 13:34
Another ROTFLMAO moment courtesy of Carcharadon:
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, one can also find a lot of examples of things where the Europeans where not always so successful and then use it to make caricatures. As for example the Europeans use of their technological skill to produce a lot of destructive weapons, or their use of books and letters to spread a lot of religious, Christian, nonsense, or their ability to wage destructive wars at regular intervals.
 
Say what? On may surmise that we are in the presence of someone who obviously failed an introductory course to cultures and history. We will not even go into the history of caricature in Western Art nor expound upon the principle of self-criticism that is a dominant motiv in the culture of the Modern World.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 13:36
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Well, all S S Africans did not live in the jungle (Nok, Great Zimbabwe, Engaruka, Swahili Coast, Mali Empire and others). They lived in a variety of environments and in a wide variety of societies.


They were primitive societies, anyways.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 13:37
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Another ROTFLMAO moment courtesy of Carcharadon:
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, one can also find a lot of examples of things where the Europeans where not always so successful and then use it to make caricatures. As for example the Europeans use of their technological skill to produce a lot of destructive weapons, or their use of books and letters to spread a lot of religious, Christian, nonsense, or their ability to wage destructive wars at regular intervals.
 
Say what? On may surmise that we are in the presence of someone who obviously failed an introductory course to cultures and history. We will not even go into the history of caricature in Western Art nor expound upon the principle of self-criticism that is a dominant motiv in the culture of the Modern World.
 
Unfortunately some western self critizism has not meant that all westerners have abstained from caricaturing or ridiculing African and Afro American people
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 13:50


Africans make caricatures themselves.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 13:53
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



Africans make caricatures themselves.


 
Do not forget the purpose of the western caricatures and demeaning portraits (in both words and pictures) of Africans/Afro Americans.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 14:01
Don't be silly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 14:03
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Don't be silly.
 
It is indeed silly to try to deny the history of demeaning portraits of Africans in western popular culture, literature and similar.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 14:38
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Don't you ever bother to pay attention to what someone else says? No-one is denying there have been gross caicatures of Africans from time to time. Of course there have been. But (a) there have been equally gross caricatures of other peoples and (b) all peoples create gross caricatures of other peoples.

 

So what you are saying is not untrue, merely pointless and trivial and calculated to create distress and harm, no matter how innocently motivated you may be. The fact that other people do the same as you is not evidence of anything except that you are not alone in this.

 

Basically you represent the problem, not the solution, which necessitates the universality of racist attitudes, rather than singling out one particular group for condemnation.

 

 

Well, to present a solution one must aknowledge that there is a problem.
I just said there was. You're part of it. What you aren't doing is helping to solve anything.,
Quote
 
 And if there are also bad representations of other peoples do not make the demeaning representations of Africans better. And it is that we discuss in this thread.
 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

All of which makes the point that your arguments are pointless. How many do that and how many don't? How many such are directed at Africans, and how many at other peoples? How often? By whom? These are questions you have to address, otherwise you are just making noises. .

 

Its enough that a considerable body of popular cultural products show racist sterotypes against Africans and Afroamericans (and other black peoples) for it to be a problem since such cultural products upholds racist stereotypes.

If that's enough, then stop going on about it. You've already done that and it leads nowhere. More accurately, it's nowhere near enough. What's needed to start with is some realistic unbiased concern with what is happening now and why, not what may or may not have happened in the past.
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It's NOT enough. It's downright dangerous and threatens to extend the racist stereotyping you complain about. You don't get rid of racist stereotypes by creating new ones.
 

The sheer number of stereotypes in films, books, toys and even computer games that shows demeaning representations of Africans and Afro Americans is indeed a problem that still creates frustration. And the representations is a continuation of a racist mindset that has been present for quite a while now. That is enough of a problem for it to be adressed and discussed.

The very assumption that that IS the problem is what the actual problem is: you're never going to help improve human relations on the planet while you keep on harping on the injustices of the past - even in the occasional case where what you complain about actually happened..

Quote  

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Don't you see how silly a remark that is? There are also millions of Europeans and European descendants who never benefited from any European colonisation. The reality you refuse to face up to is that the world is on the whole a healthier and politically fairer and richer and securer place than it was a thousand years ago, and much of that is due to the scientific and political achievements of western culture.  

 

Noone denies that the world changes, but it is indeed wrong to forget about those peoples who have been destroyed, exterminated and opressed due to European colonialism and expansion of European/western culture.
Why do you harp on about European colonialism and European/western culture? What for instance is so good about Bantu expansion? ask a Bushman how he feels. In fact it is not wrong to forget about what happened in the past; in such situations as this it has a lot to be said for it. It's different when the people are still alive.

 



Edited by gcle2003 - 15 Dec 2010 at 14:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 14:47
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Unfortunately some western self critizism has not meant that all westerners have abstained from caricaturing or ridiculing African and Afro American people
 
As a matter of interest, why on earth should they abstain?
 
Danes laugh at people from Aarhus, the Irish laugh at Kerrymen, the English and Scots laugh at the Irish, the Tswana laugh at Nigerians, Barbadany laugh at Jamaicans .... even the Germans laugh as long as someone explains the joke to them (hah!).
 
Mockery, satire and stereotyping are universals: why should Africans be exempt?


Edited by gcle2003 - 15 Dec 2010 at 14:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 14:49

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

The very assumption that that IS the problem is what the actual problem is: you're never going to help improve human relations on the planet while you keep on harping on the injustices of the past - even in the occasional case where what you complain about actually happened..

 

Well, as long as many Afroamericans and also people of African descent here in Europe perceive it as a problem to be stereotyped and ridiculed, then it is a problem.

 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why do you harp on about European colonialism and European/western culture? What for instance is so good about Bantu expansion? ask a Bushman how he feels. In fact it is not wrong to forget about what happened in the past; in such situations as this it has a lot to be said for it. It's different when the people are still alive.

 

Well, it hard to find in the latest centuries such an extermination of different peoples as in some of the places impacted by Europeans.

 

And in some places the displacemnt, opression and sheer extermination still takes place.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 14:54
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

The very assumption that that IS the problem is what the actual problem is: you're never going to help improve human relations on the planet while you keep on harping on the injustices of the past - even in the occasional case where what you complain about actually happened..

 

Well, as long as many Afroamericans and also people of African descent here in Europe perceive it as a problem to be stereotyped and ridiculed, then it is a problem.

Why?

Quote  

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why do you harp on about European colonialism and European/western culture? What for instance is so good about Bantu expansion? ask a Bushman how he feels. In fact it is not wrong to forget about what happened in the past; in such situations as this it has a lot to be said for it. It's different when the people are still alive.

 

Well, it hard to find in the latest centuries such an extermination of different peoples as in some of the places impacted by Europeans.

 

And in some places the displacemnt, opression and sheer extermination still takes place.

Don't just say 'in some places'. Say where?
I agree that something like that that is actually happening now should be stopped. That's a different matter entirely. So tell us where Europeans are currently displacing, oppressing and exterminating peoples from other continents.
 
And balance that against, e.g., Darfur, Rwanda, Burundi, the Congo, Zimbabwe and goings on there and elsewhere in Africa.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 15:01
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why?
 
So in your book there is not a problem when people feel themselves to be ridiculed, discriminated and stereotyped?

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Don't just say 'in some places'. Say where? 

 
As an example (as I have mentioned in a lot of other threads, so you ought to know it by now) displacements, opression and sometimes exterminations takes place in Brazil, Peru, Equador and Colombia.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

And balance that against, e.g., Darfur, Rwanda, Burundi, the Congo, Zimbabwe and goings on there and elsewhere in Africa. 
 
Some of these conflicts are actually partly due to a colonial heritage, so Europeans can be said to have a part of the blame for that too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 15:16
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why?
 
So in your book there is not a problem when people feel themselves to be ridiculed, discriminated and stereotyped?
Only if they themselves are being so treated. Then I sympathise.
Quote

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Don't just say 'in some places'. Say where? 

 As an example (as I have mentioned in a lot of other threads, so you ought to know it by now) displacements, opression and sometimes exterminations takes place in Brazil, Peru, Equador and Colombia.
By Europeans?
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

And balance that against, e.g., Darfur, Rwanda, Burundi, the Congo, Zimbabwe and goings on there and elsewhere in Africa. 
 
Some of these conflicts are actually partly due to a colonial heritage, so Europeans can be said to have a part of the blame for that too.
Nonsense. One of the reasons the British were in the Sudan in the first place was because they were putting down massacres in Darfur. These are things that started way before Europeans started exporing Africa.
 
Don't be so disingenuous. You know as well as anyone that those conflicts are age-old.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 15:28
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

By Europeans?
 
Descendants of Europeans and representatives for Euroamerican cultures. On top of that also European and USA companies that sometimes are involved in the displacements (and has been for quite a while).
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Nonsense. One of the reasons the British were in the Sudan in the first place was because they were putting down massacres in Darfur. These are things that started way before Europeans started exporing Africa.
 
Do not be to quick in dismissing the connections. Also do not forget the neocolonial involvment of European and American companies in Africa, underpinning conflicts for the sake of economic benefits.
 
And do not reproduce the old myth about the benevolent Brits (and other colonial powers) that saved the poor Africans from themselves. Maybe next time there are some conflict or disturbance here in Europe we should invite the Chinese to rescue us Europeans from ourselves.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 15:31
Here we go 'round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush; here we go 'round the mulberry bush, early in the morning (PST that is).
 
This one image from pop culture should have you howling, Carch--
 
 
Now let us have you perorate on it as you misconstrue it to suit your own erroneous weltanshnauug.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 15:43
Well it does seem a bit much to represent someone as a Yankee fan. Now a Braves cap would give a different image altogether.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2011 at 19:36
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The difference is that Europeans had an advanced civilization (I said advanced, not a superb one), while S.S. Africans were jungle people.
The same as Amazonians, they were also jungle people.

Edited by scv - 29 Sep 2011 at 19:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2011 at 19:37
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



Africans make caricatures themselves.


Like Amerindians do:


Edited by scv - 29 Sep 2011 at 19:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2011 at 19:45
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

If you hate Europe so much why don't you move to Zimbabwe, where people will appreciate your worldview quite a lot, and will love you?

Don't waste your time, they are waiting for you there.
Look who is talking about hating Europe, Donkey speaking of ears?Don't waste your time talking babble.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 01:25
Don't waste yours time here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 11:10
SCV, I'll add my warning to es-bih's. You're heading for trouble if you keep throwing insults at someone without producing some reasonable content or commentary yourself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 09:23
The trial in Belgium about tintin in congo is going on:
 
Quote   Tintin 'racist' court case nears its conclusion after four years

Publishers of Tintin in Congo, one of the earliest comic books on the plucky journalist, are fighting charges the book is racist, saying such claims are tantamount to "taking a knife to Charles Dickens' works".

As film buffs await this month's release of Steven Spielberg's 3D blockbuster, "The Adventures of Tintin", a four-year case for racism against the 1931 comic book by Belgian-born Hergé (real name Georges Remi) held its last hearing on Friday.

Bienvenu Mbutu Mondondo, 41, a Congolese citizen who brought the charges, claims the book is propaganda for colonialism and amounts to racism and xenophobia.

In a Brussels court, his lawyers contended that the book was a justification of colonisation and of white supremacy and should be condemned as racist under Belgian law and banned.

But the lawyer for the publisher and the copyright group, Alain Berenboom, said Hergé's book was merely reflected a bygone era.

"Hergé was part of his times, it wasn't racism but kind paternalism, Mr Berenboom said.

He said to view it in a contemporary light was "a totally twisted reading" of the book, which has sold 10 million copies worldwide.

Just 23 when he wrote the comic, Hergé had never left Belgium, instead basing his drawings and plot on reports by missionaries, museum artefacts and articles in the bourgeois and conservative press.

Mr Berenboom warned that if the court chose to ban the book or order publishers to post a warning on a new edition, it might just as well take the knife to (Charles) Dickens on the Jews, Jules Verne on the black population or the Bible's attitude towards women.

Dismissing the plaintiff's claims, the lawyer, who is acting on behalf of French publishing house Casterman and Belgian firm Moulinsart which holds the Tintin franchise, said he would ask the court for 15,000 euros in damages.

The judge said she would issue a final ruling by mid-February in the case, which first opened in 2007 in a criminal court before being heard in a civil court from April last year.

The book has caused controversy outside Belgium. In 2007, British race watchdogs pulled the book from children's shelves and attacked the Tintin cartoons for making black Africans look like monkeys and talk like imbeciles. In 2009, the work was removed from the shelves of Brooklyn's municipal library following a complaint from a reader that it had illustrations that were racially offensive and inappropriate for children.

Tintin and his dog Snowy are a rare unifying symbol in Belgium – a divided nation where postcolonial guilt over Belgian's record in the Congo still runs high.

The Congo remained a Belgian colony until 1960 and between 1885 and 1908 millions of Congolese are thought to have died under the brutal rule of Belgium's King Leopold II.

Georges Remi, the Tintin cartoonist who worked under the Hergé pen-name, reworked the book in 1946 to remove references to Congo as Belgian colony.

But it still contained images such as a black woman bowing to Tintin and saying: White man very great White mister is big juju man!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/8834175/Tintin-racist-court-case-nears-its-conclusion-after-four-years.html



Edited by Carcharodon - 31 Oct 2011 at 09:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 11:20
Ah! Tin-Tin in Congo.What a beautiful cartoon. I love those old cartoons from the times were the PC inquisition didn't exist, and life was show like it was.



Edited by pinguin - 31 Oct 2011 at 11:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Ah! Tin-Tin in Congo.What a beautiful cartoon. I love those old cartoons from the times were the PC inquisition didn't exist, and life was show like it was.

 
Hmm, it seems that your view of Africa comes from reading old cartoons and comics. It seems that you conflate those cartoons with reality.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:09
What wonderful cartoons. Do you want to watch one? This is from the Warner Bros. Follow the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y68z8cq2Qsk&feature=related




Edited by pinguin - 31 Oct 2011 at 12:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:31
Well, cartoons can be funny, but one shall not conflate them with reality. And also one must take into consideration that some people can be hurt by demeaning cartoons and comics. Perhaps you like racist  jokes and cartoons about Latinos?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:37
Why hurting people? Africans were tribal people up to not long ago, they lived a primitive (or simple) lifestyle, and the only "modern" on theirs cultural elements were perhaps iron, farming and cattle. In the cartoon I shown you can see the African masks and other cultural elements, which show the artists carefully selected the elements. Even more, they despicted a lovely caracter with all the behavoir of a common child that could be from any culture. Besides, they are black and had the facial features despicted in those cartoons. But, come on, cartoons exagerate, always! I don't know why that has to be diminishing or hurting.

By the way, Latinos love Speedy Gonzalez, the Three Caballeros and all the cartoons made about ourselves. In fact, for us, the American stereotype is Sylvester the cat.


Edited by pinguin - 31 Oct 2011 at 12:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2011 at 12:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Why hurting people? Africans were tribal people up to not long ago, they lived a primitive (or simple) lifestyle, and the only "modern" on theirs cultural elements were perhaps iron, farming and cattle.
 
Do not forget that there also were cities, civilisations and empires in Africa quite early.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

But, come on, cartoons exagerate, always! I don't know why that has to be diminishing or hurting.

Well, it has historical roots since the discrimination in cartoons and similar has been a part of an overall discrimination which denied Africans or Afro Americans their rights and was a sort of alibi for opression and exploitation.
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