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What follows what when implementing civilization?

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    Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 11:33
I think that in the four categories:

1) Cultural
2) Economics
3) Political
4) Military

They must necessarily be produced in this order to sustain the high quality of each other.  Let me show you where it has certainly succeeded in such order.

China and United States

China indeed started out with a massive ideation of high culture and though it was militarily weak during its response to events such as the Opium Wars one realizes the country and its people could never be won over.  On the other hand a place like Mongolia would be hard to militarily conquer but can be easily won over by the advent of culture, as history has shown it relished every culture other than its own.

While the United States imported much of its culture, it is still cultural nevertheless.  Instead of just one culture there is simply a great deal of culture going around.  We cannot deny its strength in the three other areas, which surpass even China's.

Now let's reverse the order:

1) Military
2) Political
3) Economics
4) Cultural

In this reversed order each and every category is almost guaranteed to fail.  Let me show you where it has certainly failed in this order.

North Korea, Nazi Germany and Axis

They started out with fierce iron will using military to suppress population for the development of political gain.  In the case of North Korea it has miserably failed to the point its military is in shambles.  At least with Nazi Germany there was a movement along with Mussolini's fascist Italy to begin a new kind of economic program of state capitalism which can be argued has spread amongst some of the more "socialist" European countries like Spain and France.  There was even a period of prosperity for the Nazi Germans and Soviet Russians as they maximized their reach using satellites.  The same can be argued for Japan.  The major flaw in their approach was that in the end nobody really gave a rats ass about their culture though they tried to impress it upon others through linguistic acculturation and through racial idealisms.  Needless to say they all fell apart.

Some approaches are akin to ice skating uphill and are the people who take them seriously become dumb losers of the world in time.

There are other variations on the order of implementation but none as worse as the one which completely defies logic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 20:15
i admit the meaning of all this does not seem clear to me at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 21:36
People categorize things all the time.  For example China, many say it is a civilization state but for all intents and purposes, if we separate the civilizational components we would see that its strongest component is cultural in relation to other components in terms of its history.

As of these 4 categories you can basically categorize all the world civilizations since the beginning.  In addition to categorization it is noticeably apparent that some systems are implemented with the attention towards gain in all the categories at the same time but they didn't start out at the same time.

Strong culture leads to strong economics, strong economics leads to strong politics, strong politics leads to strong military in the sense that they are sustained within civilization when presented in this order and collapse when presented in the reverse.  I suppose one can even say the categorization pinpoints the specifics of how a culture was if it started out without military.  It would have been a culture of peace, not brutality.  On the other hand a civilization which began with military had a complete lack of culture, or if it had one a culture bereft of high culture and reasoning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 06:15
What this is all about seems still a puzzle to me, but so far as I understand You I don´t think I can fully agree. I don´t see how nazis or the axis are any good example, because they did not "decay" or disappear by themselves, but were crushed. Military and the har way. And North Korea I think is not any result only of internal development and Korean culture, but rather something originally coming from abroad, from the USSR, Like the initial core of South Korea more or less was "Made in U.S.A.".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 06:48
I was taking the third reich to conclusion.  Through militancy it enforced its ultimate goal of racial hierarchy with Germany's citizens being at the top.  This experienced an end.  Another good example of China.  Qin.  Lasted less than a generation.  Each dynasty failed which began with militancy but yet there is still a China, the China of cultural appreciation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 06:51
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

I admit the meaning of all this does not seem clear to me at all.
 
I join you in this. It all reads like nonsense to me.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 07:04
lol the master trole with nothing substantial to offer but complain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 08:24
fantasus wrote:
Quote What this is all about seems still a puzzle to me, but so far as I understand You I don´t think I can fully agree. I don´t see how nazis or the axis are any good example, because they did not "decay" or disappear by themselves, but were crushed. Military and the har way. And North Korea I think is not any result only of internal development and Korean culture, but rather something originally coming from abroad, from the USSR, Like the initial core of South Korea more or less was "Made in U.S.A.".
 
You're not alone on this, the OP doesn't make sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 21:04
The Ottomans. I think, were from the start predominantly strong in a military sense, but made an empire lasting over centuries, eventually incorporating more sophisticated cultural, economic and political traits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 23:36
No more than the Roman Empire which ended on a similar sad note.  I really don't see how it can be any other way.  If you choose to start out in the military sense to build your civilization you will ultimately fail in all areas.  All empires in history have ended.  Even the most sophisticated most expansive world colonialist British Empire ended.  Now the economy in UK has seen some upstarts such as with the student riots.   Not to mention its politics went out the window and military. 

The UK is embroiled in a debate whether to allow multiculturalism to thrive or reaffirm a native cultural policy.  The Ottoman region has erupted into a contest of "holy war" of neighbor against neighbor still based on antiquity.  In contrast the east Asian region the culture is clearly Confucian and because this is clear there is no factor of "being perplexed".  The actors focus on economy rather than cultural principles.  As a result places like China and Japan have arisen to appeal to the political arena and both have United States backing although at different times.  Japan is backed militarily by its US ally while China is backed economically.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2014 at 16:14
So, the argument goes that there is only eternal civilizations or empires on the one hand and "failed" ones on the other. My reply will be something like this: Whatever humans achieved may eventually come to an end. Humanity, itself may at one time end. Is that "failure"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2014 at 22:50
When Nazi Germany and Axis existed were they the only ones on the planet?  Humanity takes its best examples to survive, its worst examples to fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 03:10
I have though all my life (a long life) what are those factors, and I came to a the conclusion that what drives a society is innovation. Basically, the way to solve better the problems of life, particularly in production of goods.
I think the basic power of a society is its innovative capability. And that shows in all your cathegories: economics (production of goods, for instance), politics (management of human resources), military (defense of our own territories and richness) and cultural (a side effect of a prosperous society). 
So the driving force behind everything is creativity.
That's why the U.S. dominates the world, not only because it has the best weapons, but above all it is because it has the best managers, inventors and creators, and also the best universities, broadway, hollywood and Silicon Valley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 04:04
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

So, the argument goes that there is only eternal civilizations or empires on the one hand and "failed" ones on the other. My reply will be something like this: Whatever humans achieved may eventually come to an end. Humanity, itself may at one time end. Is that "failure"?
 
1. Eternal civilisations are a myth. No civilisation, in it's purest form, lasts forever;
 
2. Everything comes to an end. It may be reinvented, modified, changed or whatever;
 
3. Humanity may come to an end, who knows?
 
4. Would it be a failure? Depends on how it comes to an end, if it ever does. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 04:39
I understand Pinquin's reasoning but the premise was skewed which hopefully resolves through discussion.  The reason there is a need for innovation of military is because there was something worth protecting, the culture.  Or put in another way a military is not given due cause to continue innovating if it had poor culture to protect.  Nobody would give a rats ass in the end.  You don't need an extremely innovated military to protect a place that is in constant cultural turmoil.  The people in those areas need to get their cultural act together first.  Notice when I use culture I don't mean just any culture like wine tasting and other random things.  I mean the culture that could be used to build off of because it has provided a scope for lasting cooperation.  You can't just step into some place with the best guns and decide hey the new culture of this place will be ours.  The thing about guns.  Nobody will listen to your culture because even if it had strong merits to begin with you overwrite its appeal with the imposition upon others which meant your culture was never really any good in the first place.  It continues in a viscious cycle until a point in time someone says lets take a look at the culture again.


Edited by literaryClarity - 30 Aug 2014 at 04:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 08:34
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I have though all my life (a long life) what are those factors, and I came to a the conclusion that what drives a society is innovation. Basically, the way to solve better the problems of life, particularly in production of goods.
I think the basic power of a society is its innovative capability. And that shows in all your cathegories: economics (production of goods, for instance), politics (management of human resources), military (defense of our own territories and richness) and cultural (a side effect of a prosperous society). 
So the driving force behind everything is creativity.
That's why the U.S. dominates the world, not only because it has the best weapons, but above all it is because it has the best managers, inventors and creators, and also the best universities, broadway, hollywood and Silicon Valley
Well, You still have a life and time to think, and since You seems to have found the question important, then also to modify Your thoughts, since it is not much of an explanation to give all credits to "creativity" (where does "creativity" comes from? Is it just a brute fact that some countries or cultures "harbour" more "creativity" than others, or is it not just that simple?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 11:28
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I have though all my life (a long life) what are those factors, and I came to a the conclusion that what drives a society is innovation. Basically, the way to solve better the problems of life, particularly in production of goods.
I think the basic power of a society is its innovative capability. And that shows in all your cathegories: economics (production of goods, for instance), politics (management of human resources), military (defense of our own territories and richness) and cultural (a side effect of a prosperous society). 
So the driving force behind everything is creativity.
That's why the U.S. dominates the world, not only because it has the best weapons, but above all it is because it has the best managers, inventors and creators, and also the best universities, broadway, hollywood and Silicon Valley
Well, You still have a life and time to think, and since You seems to have found the question important, then also to modify Your thoughts, since it is not much of an explanation to give all credits to "creativity" (where does "creativity" comes from? Is it just a brute fact that some countries or cultures "harbour" more "creativity" than others, or is it not just that simple?)
 
fantasus: Have you been on the red wine again?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 14:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I have though all my life (a long life) what are those factors, and I came to a the conclusion that what drives a society is innovation. Basically, the way to solve better the problems of life, particularly in production of goods.
I think the basic power of a society is its innovative capability. And that shows in all your cathegories: economics (production of goods, for instance), politics (management of human resources), military (defense of our own territories and richness) and cultural (a side effect of a prosperous society). 
So the driving force behind everything is creativity.
That's why the U.S. dominates the world, not only because it has the best weapons, but above all it is because it has the best managers, inventors and creators, and also the best universities, broadway, hollywood and Silicon Valley
Well, You still have a life and time to think, and since You seems to have found the question important, then also to modify Your thoughts, since it is not much of an explanation to give all credits to "creativity" (where does "creativity" comes from? Is it just a brute fact that some countries or cultures "harbour" more "creativity" than others, or is it not just that simple?)
 
fantasus: Have you been on the red wine again?
Do You want to know?  I only want to express how the efforts of Pinguin impress me(all these years he have thought about that question!), though i am not sure I can say the same abouit his conclusions. From a rational point of view he could probably have left a lot of that thinking to others, concentrating his admirable efforts an energies on something else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 17:30
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Well, You still have a life and time to think, and since You seems to have found the question important, then also to modify Your thoughts, since it is not much of an explanation to give all credits to "creativity" (where does "creativity" comes from? Is it just a brute fact that some countries or cultures "harbour" more "creativity" than others, or is it not just that simple?)

Creativity comes from human brains of people who has the time and resources to innovate. Creating the right environment for innovation is what most societies fail to achieve. For instance, I doubt that Newton had ever been a genius if he didn't met Cambridge. In fact, there he got into primitive Calculus thanks to his professor Isaac Barrow, the first to calculate a derivative and discoverer of the fundamental theorem of Calculus. So, in orden to develop genius and creativity yo need the environment.

Once you have innovation and creativity in a country, it certainly will compete better in ALL the fields: economics, science, arts and military as well. So, for me, obviously innovation is the engine that drives it all.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 17:41
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

...Do You want to know?  I only want to express how the efforts of Pinguin impress me(all these years he have thought about that question!), though i am not sure I can say the same abouit his conclusions. From a rational point of view he could probably have left a lot of that thinking to others, concentrating his admirable efforts an energies on something else.

Fantasus. I don't meditate on that topic to please you. 
My point is simple, and if you don't share the idea, good for you. In any case, if you are of those snobs that only respect authority, Arnold Toynbee proposed this idea long time before I was born. I quote him.

He is best known for his 12-volume A Study of History (1934–61), through which he

...examined the rise and fall of 26 civilizations in the course of human history, and he concluded that they rose by responding successfully to challenges under the leadership of creative minorities composed of elite leaders

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 20:16
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  In any case, if you are of those snobs that only respect authority, Arnold Toynbee proposed this idea long time before I was born. I quote him.
No, I don´t "only" respect authority, and in many cases I will doubt "authorities". Even Toynbee, I guess.
It is more that I don´t find "creativity" or "innovation" to clarify things that much.
But since You mention Newton, I have just finished a book about him, unfortunately not in english, but a new one, stressing his occupation with religious and biblical and "historical" speculation, his interests in alchemy and whatever else he did. Not that he was unique, since other great scientists of that time, like Kepler, had peculiar interests in those fields. But back to topic: The question about "creativity" is, here I admit we agree, much a question of the right environment, since humans from earliest times may have had the potential, even sometimes as much as all we know of geniuses. A man we could compare(regarding potentrial ability, creative and intellectual potential) with Newton or any famous 20th century scientist could have lived in prehistoric times (I see no reason there did not live many with similar potential from birth), but would have used them in entirely different ways. So here it is that the "environment", including the "cultural" environment comes into the picture. And that rases new questions. Not least the question of wether or not we think we can dig deeper into "why" and "how" such a cultural environment may evolve. Of course that may result in a very long, even "infinite" discussion about cultures, about economy, mentality of peoples and about history. But such discussions can be very long and complex and risk ending up in "cirkular reasoning" and explanations that really don´t explain much. To make it short:that is some of the main reasons I prefer looking at the natural environmental forces, behind the "historical" or cultural, or even "genetic".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 02:04
My feeling is that what matters in society are the development of the most important resource: human resources. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 08:14
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

My feeling is that what matters in society are the development of the most important resource: human resources. 
"Human ressources" are not as I see it ressources in the same sense or on the same level as other types. Then, if the only factor was "humans", they are on a basic level, and from the beginning "the same" from a large scale point of view, and all differences on an individual level. So, if we look at differences between cultures, societies or humans in different areas, this so-called "human ressources" will not make things clear to us. If we look at individual histories though, I admit it is a different matter. But differences on a collective level between humans does not so much explain anything but rather need critical examination and explanation itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 13:47
I think what Pinguin had said about innovation is true.  In many cases the environment of a failed state, empire, or civilization is due to the apparent lack of something as fundamental as innovation.  Without innovation there could not have been anything so revolutionary as to have moved civilization forward.  Military is an innovation of politics, politics is an innovation of economics, economics is an innovation of culture.  The next thing coming always serves the thing before it, not the other way around.  Culture does not serve economics, ecomonics does not serve politics, and politics certainly does not serve military.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2014 at 19:37
Is this why Dwight Eisenhower warned about the military-industrial complex?  In that setup the military doesn't really serve the politics anymore as the idea becomes about trying to get the other branches of government to perpetually serve the military.  Therefore sooner or later the politics becomes about maintaining the army's great strength and the economics becomes about funding the military.  It is a curious thing that even though the US has been accused of this kind of ponzi scheme it still has the focus of cultural freedom enough to attract immigrants from all over the world.  It is a constant struggle for politics to maintain between that of economic freedom and the danger that it could get out of hand without adequate policing but which require law enforcement and military projection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2014 at 21:59
The U.S. is strong because of its creativity, reflected in the best universities worldwide, Hollywood and Silicon Valley. When that part of U.S. economy fall down, if ever, the country will decline.
Notice that no competing power (Nazis, the Soviet Union and in recent times Europe, Japan and China) can compare to the U.S. in terms of creativity: nobel prize production, blockbuster movies, high tech inventions. While that remains the same, Uncle Sam will rule supreme.


Edited by pinguin - 17 Sep 2014 at 21:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2014 at 22:26
Hollywood is racist however.  There are numerous perpetuated racist themes coming from Hollywood in connection to US military. For example Transformers 2.  I felt sorry for the fictional depiction of robots trampling down on "terrorist" subjects in the first 5 minutes.  Apparently the creators were not creative enough even with hundreds of millions of dollars to help them.  This is nothing short of explicit propaganda in service of the US military.  They say the winners write the history books.  Is this what they mean by winning and history books?  Sure it is fictional but the utilization of the real world aspects is there.  That's not to say other countries don't do this also, have culture which is inspired off military gung ho.  Hopefully it isn't a trend which will last on and on.  Military should be military, it shouldn't be the subject of someone's culture unless you are the Samurai class.


Edited by literaryClarity - 17 Sep 2014 at 22:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 02:03
That's not the point. The fact the U.S. consider third world countries like its backyard doesn't diminish its strength and don't put in risk its hegemony.
A point of view from the antipodes
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literaryClarity View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 03:13
You are trying to change the subject.  The fact that US hegemony is entrusted to Hollywood is unimaginable.  Hollywood is about as uninnovative as it can get and doesn't reflect anything but slapstick and gung ho.  I've not seen a production worth the cost of the budget since the rise of the Wachowski bros if you know what I mean.  If Hollywood goes down the world would have more marketshare in other kinds of movies, not just racist movies.

On the other hand if you are talking about using someone's backyard China has this worked out like nobody has.  They literally strip mine a country's assets but pay handsomely with "rewards points" infrastructure and economic stimulus.  No debt.

Btw the hegemony of the US is challenged in the course of alternatives rising.  South America is for example already severed from the umbilical cord that is the US diplomatically led agenda.


Edited by literaryClarity - 18 Sep 2014 at 03:20
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 03:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The U.S. is strong because of its creativity, reflected in the best universities worldwide, Hollywood and Silicon Valley. When that part of U.S. economy fall down, if ever, the country will decline.
Notice that no competing power (Nazis, the Soviet Union and in recent times Europe, Japan and China) can compare to the U.S. in terms of creativity: nobel prize production, blockbuster movies, high tech inventions. While that remains the same, Uncle Sam will rule supreme.

Give me a break. Creativity does not follow national boundaries. The reason we have heard so much out of the US in recent decades is because so many other nations have been blighted by horrendous governance, or political or environmental upheaval, or war, and so the most able flee to the bright lights.

Einstein was a German Jew forced out of his country. The atom bomb project was run by a consortium of European physicists. Nasa was overseen by a German. Hollywood was the only show in town for a long while, but is now being made to look ridiculous by amateurs using internet technology. China is now a leading producer of alternative energy products. Some of the best ideas in urban design and livability come from Europe, and most definitely not the US in this area. Brazil builds aircraft, and Russia shuttles crew to the international space station.
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