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What follows what when implementing civilization?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 04:27
The whole topic is nonsense.

Civilisation is not implemented, it evolves as people discover new and better ways to do things, to read and write, to record their history and laws.

No-one snaps his fingers and says "Let's have a civilisation here."

All of the points listed in the OP are aspects of civilisation many of which are shaped by trial and error, some by outside influences such as neighbouring cultures.

To select one or two ancient civilisations and cherry pick some of their achievements is disingenuous in the extreme, and has no influence, probably, on civilisation in general.

Civilisation is a process, not an overnight discovery.

Edited by toyomotor - 18 Sep 2014 at 04:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 05:07
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Give me a break. Creativity does not follow national boundaries. The reason we have heard so much out of the US in recent decades is because so many other nations have been blighted by horrendous governance, or political or environmental upheaval, or war, and so the most able flee to the bright lights.

Einstein was a German Jew forced out of his country. The atom bomb project was run by a consortium of European physicists. Nasa was overseen by a German. Hollywood was the only show in town for a long while, but is now being made to look ridiculous by amateurs using internet technology. China is now a leading producer of alternative energy products. Some of the best ideas in urban design and livability come from Europe, and most definitely not the US in this area. Brazil builds aircraft, and Russia shuttles crew to the international space station.


Actually, you contradicted yourself. You said "the most able flee to the bright lights". The U.S. is brighter than the rest of countries and attracts intellectuals like flowers attract bees! That country promotes innovation like no other.

I will give you an example from my own country. Do you remember the TV series "I Dream of Jeannie". One of the directors of that series was Claudio Guzman. Who was Claudio Guzman? Well, he was a Chilean that succeed directing an American TV series at a time there were few TV set in Chile, and our own country lacked the resources to record even a soap opera!!! (they were transmitted alive at the time). So, the important thing was not that Guzman was Chilean. What matter is that the U.S. has the resources and potential to develop to the top any skilled man coming from the other end of the world. And yes, Einstein was pretty smart, but the U.S. developed the atomic bomb, and Von Braun was smart too, but it wasn't his loved Nazi Germany but the U.S. which fulfilled his dreams.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 05:12
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:


Btw the hegemony of the US is challenged in the course of alternatives rising.  South America is for example already severed from the umbilical cord that is the US diplomatically led agenda.


Latin America don't trust the U.S. It never had and it'll never do. The reason is simple. The U.S. had invaded and intervened in local politics too many times, and Latin Americans are people with good memory.

On the other hand, the U.S. is one of our economic models to follow. And I can't deny many local people admire the creativity of that country.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 07:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 07:50
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

The whole topic is nonsense.

Civilisation is not implemented, it evolves as people discover new and better ways to do things, to read and write, to record their history and laws.

No-one snaps his fingers and says "Let's have a civilisation here."

All of the points listed in the OP are aspects of civilisation many of which are shaped by trial and error, some by outside influences such as neighbouring cultures.

To select one or two ancient civilisations and cherry pick some of their achievements is disingenuous in the extreme, and has no influence, probably, on civilisation in general.

Civilisation is a process, not an overnight discovery.


Wrong civilization is a reality that is here and now and its implementation can be understood through the social political economic sciences.  You can think of it as a science for the successful sustainability of large dense urban populated areas.

This topic is like the "Doubts about Evolution" one.  It's not that evolution is nonsense but the preconceptions that are stuck in our heads sometimes need reevaluation so that the concepts are intimately understood.  So too with civilization.  You are right that it is a process of trial and error, similar to evolution.  However there is a sustainable direction to it which I find fascinating to discuss.  Were it not for direction I doubt much people would like civilization at all and this is certainly reflected in parts of the world where civilization is disintegrating rather than upholding a continuous process.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 16:06
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Give me a break. Creativity does not follow national boundaries. The reason we have heard so much out of the US in recent decades is because so many other nations have been blighted by horrendous governance, or political or environmental upheaval, or war, and so the most able flee to the bright lights.

Einstein was a German Jew forced out of his country. The atom bomb project was run by a consortium of European physicists. Nasa was overseen by a German. Hollywood was the only show in town for a long while, but is now being made to look ridiculous by amateurs using internet technology. China is now a leading producer of alternative energy products. Some of the best ideas in urban design and livability come from Europe, and most definitely not the US in this area. Brazil builds aircraft, and Russia shuttles crew to the international space station.


Actually, you contradicted yourself. You said "the most able flee to the bright lights". The U.S. is brighter than the rest of countries and attracts intellectuals like flowers attract bees! That country promotes innovation like no other.

I will give you an example from my own country. Do you remember the TV series "I Dream of Jeannie". One of the directors of that series was Claudio Guzman. Who was Claudio Guzman? Well, he was a Chilean that succeed directing an American TV series at a time there were few TV set in Chile, and our own country lacked the resources to record even a soap opera!!! (they were transmitted alive at the time). So, the important thing was not that Guzman was Chilean. What matter is that the U.S. has the resources and potential to develop to the top any skilled man coming from the other end of the world. And yes, Einstein was pretty smart, but the U.S. developed the atomic bomb, and Von Braun was smart too, but it wasn't his loved Nazi Germany but the U.S. which fulfilled his dreams.







If you imagine that "I Dream of Jeannie" represents creativity, then I'm sorry to break this to you penguin, but  your only hope is to attend a re-education camp for philistines, and don't spare the pesos.

My point was that creativity is not the sole possession of any one country, as there are creative people disbursed around the planet. It's just the US was the place to be for a while, just as Paris was in the 1920's, or London before that, etc. Today, education, technology, and development are becoming more widely distributed, and so we will see (and are seeing) more creative endeavor around the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 18:29
The idea of a country having anything like "monopoly" of creativity seems simply based upon ignorance of creative achievements of other countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2014 at 18:58
Culture is the permanently registered affect of creativity and economics is the behavioral outcome of culture and so on and so on.  Which part of the world doesn't have culture?  The problem is not to just have culture but to really bring it out into the open and sustain its growth economically.  The US does indeed have this phenonenon although I just wouldn't pin it down to Hollywood.  It's the cultural-economics of media sharing and "new sensation" in which the broadcasting conglomerates make a killing.  But the rich US culture of commercialized mainstream music is still derivative off street music which develops off little kids at home playing on their instrument of choice and sucking at it, at least in the beginning.  The US is a place full of humble amateurs but which inevitably gives rise to those with great talent due to the implementation of civilization.

By the way I think the show I dream of Jeannie is a pretty creative show but is sort of in line with the likes of Sabrina the Teenage Witch.


Edited by literaryClarity - 18 Sep 2014 at 21:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 19:53
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


If you imagine that "I Dream of Jeannie" represents creativity, then I'm sorry to break this to you penguin, but  your only hope is to attend a re-education camp for philistines, and don't spare the pesos.


Well, if you downplay Guzman's works in "I dream of Jeannie", perhaps you have known about Jodorowsky, Neruda or Isabel Allende, all Chileans. Anyways, don't look down on Latin Americans that we also have our own people to be proud of. The U.S. and Canada aren't the only civilized countries of the Americas, OK?

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


My point was that creativity is not the sole possession of any one country, as there are creative people disbursed around the planet. It's just the US was the place to be for a while, just as Paris was in the 1920's, or London before that, etc. Today, education, technology, and development are becoming more widely distributed, and so we will see (and are seeing) more creative endeavor around the world.


Sure I can agree with that. For instance, many Roman intellectuals weren't even born in Rome. But today, the hub of science, technology, arts and music is still the United States, and it will be that way for at least a century more.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 21:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

Sure I can agree with that. For instance, many Roman intellectuals weren't even born in Rome. But today, the hub of science, technology, arts and music is still the United States, and it will be that way for at least a century more.



We should not assume that every contemporary achievement of today is from U.S of A. I suspect many peoiple do just that, and often fail to see things and ideas coming from elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 22:19
Certainly. It is the same that in times of Rome, where provinces and even territories outside roman domain made some contributions as well, but in lower scale.  But still the hub of modern science, technology, military power and pop culture in the U.S.A.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 22:42
Notice however you said pop culture.  High culture however you refer to Rome.  These are all different cultures and which get moved around and shifted with the coming and going of people.  The culture of moving people around, tourism, Pax Romana Mongolica Sinica what have you is yet another kind of culture.  Which culture is supreme?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 00:13
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


If you imagine that "I Dream of Jeannie" represents creativity, then I'm sorry to break this to you penguin, but  your only hope is to attend a re-education camp for philistines, and don't spare the pesos.


Well, if you downplay Guzman's works in "I dream of Jeannie", perhaps you have known about Jodorowsky, Neruda or Isabel Allende, all Chileans. Anyways, don't look down on Latin Americans that we also have our own people to be proud of. The U.S. and Canada aren't the only civilized countries of the Americas, OK?

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


My point was that creativity is not the sole possession of any one country, as there are creative people disbursed around the planet. It's just the US was the place to be for a while, just as Paris was in the 1920's, or London before that, etc. Today, education, technology, and development are becoming more widely distributed, and so we will see (and are seeing) more creative endeavor around the world.


Sure I can agree with that. For instance, many Roman intellectuals weren't even born in Rome. But today, the hub of science, technology, arts and music is still the United States, and it will be that way for at least a century more.


A century is pretty extreme. There's plenty of science and technology going on in other parts of the world. Airbus is challenging Boeing, Samsung is taking on Apple, etc. US television and film tends towards the schmaltzy and the teen market, whereas Europe has- and is- producing some quality work. I don't quite get your reverence for the US in this regard.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 01:44
I don't love the U.S. as you very well know. But I admire its capacity to lead the world. No matter all the imperfections in government and international policies, the U.S. people has the skills to improve and surpass the rest. Remember all the powers the U.S. has beaten since the end of the 19th century: the Spanish Empire, the German, the Japanese, Europe (which after WWII got converted into a satellite of them), the Soviet Union, the Japanese once again in science and technology (1990s), the Muslim extremists. And it is still in good shape to continue for a century more.
On the achievements side, we shouldn't forget the U.S. is the single country that has reached the Moon.
On the military field, the U.S. has the largest and more powerful army of all.
On the cultural field, the U.S. dominates the media worldwide.
On the technology field, the U.S. has developed most of the technologies the world uses today, from computers to cell phones and Internet. 
On universities, the Americans are the most prestigious worldwide, and the ones that have most of Nobel prizes winners.
Indeed, no matter I don't like the Uncle Sam's Empire I admire the creativity of American people.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 07:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I don't love the U.S. as you very well know. But I admire its capacity to lead the world. No matter all the imperfections in government and international policies, the U.S. people has the skills to improve and surpass the rest. Remember all the powers the U.S. has beaten since the end of the 19th century: the Spanish Empire, the German, the Japanese, Europe (which after WWII got converted into a satellite of them), the Soviet Union, the Japanese once again in science and technology (1990s), the Muslim extremists. And it is still in good shape to continue for a century more.
On the achievements side, we shouldn't forget the U.S. is the single country that has reached the Moon.
On the military field, the U.S. has the largest and more powerful army of all.
On the cultural field, the U.S. dominates the media worldwide.
On the technology field, the U.S. has developed most of the technologies the world uses today, from computers to cell phones and Internet. 
On universities, the Americans are the most prestigious worldwide, and the ones that have most of Nobel prizes winners.
Indeed, no matter I don't like the Uncle Sam's Empire I admire the creativity of American people.

This is "half the truth" at best. "Europe" did not became US "stallelite" after 1945. At most part of it became US dependent, and I don´t know the meaning of saying it "beat Europe" since there was no such political entity. Germany was beaten twice, but then the US was far from alone and in facgt other powers contributed substantially and fought longer (Britain, France, Italy and Russia in WW1, and the same powers except Italy in ww2 plus minor powers). The Soviet block very much ended from internal reasons. Then also already before those great wars the US had a much bigger territory and natural ressources, plus population and industrial capacity than any of its opponents, and most of its allies.
 In many technological fields many pioneers came from outside US, but I admit it attrackts a part of them, so scientists, inventtors etcetera from elsewhere eventually become US residents. Such immigrants laid the foundation for very much of the dominance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 07:56
And US media and entertainment industry (Hollywood as an example)probably has excaggerated the US "all dominance" in many respects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 17:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I don't love the U.S. as you very well know. But I admire its capacity to lead the world. No matter all the imperfections in government and international policies, the U.S. people has the skills to improve and surpass the rest. Remember all the powers the U.S. has beaten since the end of the 19th century: the Spanish Empire, the German, the Japanese, Europe (which after WWII got converted into a satellite of them), the Soviet Union, the Japanese once again in science a,nd technology (1990s), the Muslim extremists. And it is still in good shape to continue for a century more.

Whoa there penguin, let's stop flapping those wings and do a modest review of history.

1) The US took on Spain at the end of the 19th century, because it coveted certain colonial possessions. Spain was an ideal target, as it had been in long decline, and was no match for what was an economy just then surpassing Britain, the superpower of the time.
2) The US took on Germany in 1917, a nation starving and in deep trouble, with the backing of the British and French empires.
3) Although playing a key part in WW2, The US could not have prevailed if not working in concert with the Soviet Union, the British Commonwealth, and other countries. Their fortunate position in that conflict was in no small measure the fact of two huge oceans that, given the technology of the time, insulated them from harm, and allowed production to blossom unhindered.
4) Europe did not become a satellite of the US, but joined together in the NATO alliance, one critical for the both the US and Europe.
5) Japanese (and Korean, and other) technology reigns supreme around the world. Samsung can offer an equivalent tablet computer cheaper than Apple. The car I drive is Japanese design (but made by low wage, non-union labour in the southern US). The world's largest civil aircraft is European design....
6) Yes, the US pulled ahead of the old Soviet Union. Your victory dance may be tempered by facts such as astronauts still depend on a lift from Russian technology to get to the international space station.
7) Muslim extremists are still a work in progress. 


Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


On the achievements side, we shouldn't forget the U.S. is the single country that has reached the Moon.
On the military field, the U.S. has the largest and more powerful army of all.
On the cultural field, the U.S. dominates the media worldwide.
On the technology field, the U.S. has developed most of the technologies the world uses today, from computers to cell phones and Internet. 
On universities, the Americans are the most prestigious worldwide, and the ones that have most of Nobel prizes winners.
Indeed, no matter I don't like the Uncle Sam's Empire I admire the creativity of American people.


Come clean with us penguin. You've been up late at night watching old John Wayne movies haven't you?

The US has the world's largest economy, the third largest population, and as mentioned, has escaped the destruction of war in the 20th century due to geography. Given these advantages, it would be surprising if the US didn't have some good achievements under its belt.

Good on 'em for what they have done on the plus side. But let's not assemble a virtual shrine here. That would be so Hollywood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2014 at 21:17
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

And US media and entertainment industry (Hollywood as an example)probably has excaggerated the US "all dominance" in many respects.


Agreed.  It is certainly funny though to look back on how many summer blockbusters were sold on the revisioning of recent/ancient history and the US's role within the backdrop of its international politics.  #X-Men #Transformers #PrettyMuchEveryFormulaicHeroMovie

Come to think of it.  It is amazing that it receives viewership by idiots outside the US.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2014 at 04:06
The really unfortunate fact is that so many young people, Americans included, believe that what they see in movies or TV programs must be fact.

This is particularly true of historical representations, and leads to a completely wrong view of history, in the case of American programs, with the USA at the foremost, which of course is inaccurate.

Edited by toyomotor - 13 Oct 2014 at 04:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2014 at 02:18
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Come clean with us penguin. You've been up late at night watching old John Wayne movies haven't you?


How do you guess? LOL


Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

The US has the world's largest economy, the third largest population, and as mentioned, has escaped the destruction of war in the 20th century due to geography. Given these advantages, it would be surprising if the US didn't have some good achievements under its belt.

Good on 'em for what they have done on the plus side. But let's not assemble a virtual shrine here. That would be so Hollywood.


Listen. I don't love the U.S. In fact, we used to be the playground of American military power up to the time the U.S. got in trouble with Oil and Islam. Remember that even my country suffered and American driven coup.

However, I must recognize I admire the American system to create knowledge. By comparison, Europe is a backwater, and Asia only manufactures but don't produce the revolutionary inventions. For instance, Elon Musk decided to move to the U.S. and not to Japan or Europe, because he knew only in the U.S. his ideas could flourish, and they did.

God keep America... And Keep U.S. Arm Forces fooling around very far away from South America LOL



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2014 at 02:21
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:


Agreed.  It is certainly funny though to look back on how many summer blockbusters were sold on the revisioning of recent/ancient history and the US's role within the backdrop of its international politics.  #X-Men #Transformers #PrettyMuchEveryFormulaicHeroMovie

Come to think of it.  It is amazing that it receives viewership by idiots outside the US.


At least in Latin America, we know the U.S. lies as a matter of fact. We know what Yankees have done to the world, particularly to the Third World. For instance, how to cry for the Americans soldiers that died in Vietnam, when we know 2 million of Vietnamese died in that war as well. And we know the orange agent is still producing monsters among the newborn in Vietnam. God Bless America with the power of seen its own crimes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2014 at 03:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:



Agreed.  It is certainly funny though to look back on how many summer blockbusters were sold on the revisioning of recent/ancient history and the US's role within the backdrop of its international politics.  #X-Men #Transformers #PrettyMuchEveryFormulaicHeroMovie

Come to think of it.  It is amazing that it receives viewership by idiots outside the US.



At least in Latin America, we know the U.S. lies as a matter of fact. We know what Yankees have done to the world, particularly to the Third World. For instance, how to cry for the Americans soldiers that died in Vietnam, when we know 2 million of Vietnamese died in that war as well. And we know the orange agent is still producing monsters among the newborn in Vietnam. God Bless America with the power of seen its own crimes.


I think we've strayed from the paths of righteousness here.

Surely you aren't saying that the USA is civilised?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2014 at 02:06
Ha ha ha. Of course not. The U.S. is a powerful country that imposes its will, technology and culture all over the world. It behaves relatively well inside its own land with its own citizens, but don't care much about the way it dominates the rest of the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2014 at 02:15
Wrong post.


Edited by pinguin - 16 Oct 2014 at 02:16
A point of view from the antipodes
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