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What if Europe never existed?

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    Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 19:44
Another fictional scenario. Europe never existed. All the land from Spain to the Urals and to the limit with Turkey was an open sea.
 
How would be the world today? Would it be something missing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 20:06
The world would be a dark, dark, dark intolerable and harsh place by today's comfortable standards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 20:13
Really? I bet Chinese would have supplied was Europe produced in the last three centuries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 20:26
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Another fictional scenario. Europe never existed. All the land from Spain to the Urals and to the limit with Turkey was an open sea.
 
How would be the world today? Would it be something missing?
One possible answer: We would miss Tintin, Sauerkraut, Fish´n Chips and Pizzas. Or if You want a clearer answer: We cannot (of course!) say what our world would have been like assuming any continent  just "did not exist". Not even if we deny Europe is a "real continent", since the geological formations has been there for millions of years (we cannot even be sure the planet would have not been very different just with minor changes! remove Taiwan  or the Isle of Man) It is possible vast numbers of species would have been missing - perhaps even humans (the same is of course true for other landmasses).
If we changed the question a bit, asking for what had happened if there was no  european scientic, economic and technological revolution and no big geographical expansion either since the middle ages(cose the year perhaps 1400 or 1450 I think that could have been the case, and the planets would have been inhabited byhumans) ? Then the world would probably have been spared a lot of suffering and problems ("humans vs. nature"). On the other hand there is little reason to believe that anything like the modern world as we know it existed. No globalism, no industrialism, very little like modern communications and transportation, machines, sciences, etcetera. The primary sources of power:msucles, animals or wind (for sailing and perhaps windmills) some waterpower, perhaps some chinese technologies more refined? Why not most humans still unaware of each others existance?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 21:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Another fictional scenario. Europe never existed. All the land from Spain to the Urals and to the limit with Turkey was an open sea.
 
How would be the world today? Would it be something missing?
 
So Portugal would be an island, then? Good, no pesky neighbours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 21:04
Well, from the Urals to Portugal, then. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 21:31
Still leaves the British Isles. And Iceland.
 
Not for the first time,. thank heaven for the Channel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 21:34

In that case Britain would be a very isolated Island... perhaps by now as advanced as New GuineaLOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 21:49
If you know your plate tectonics, then you'd realize that "Europe" is but a fiction and its removal would also include most of Asia! Thus there would be little impact as far as the Iberian and Italian peninsulas as well as the Balkans are concerned...the only victims those pesky barbarians and their Mongol successors. No Chinese to disturb the sleep of India eitherEvil Smile.
 
 
And yes, Pingui and Carch your Amerinds would still get it in the end.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 21:53
There would be no parliamentary republics
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 21:53
Imagine  for some reasons the european continent had more or less stayed "medieval" (I find it nearly meaningless to speculate what human civilisation had been if it had all been water, since the implication is a total different geography for æons a completely different flora and fauna, so anything could be imagined -and from a purely geophysical point it perhaps could not happen).
Did China (or any other region -China is chosen because of its relatively sophisticated civilisation) show any sign of being on the "brink" to something like the modern world? I doubt if we find much of it if we look "deeply" into the matter, at least not for very long time (millenia). Did europeans pose an obstacle for the chinese? I can hardly see they did before late (19th century).Before that time they could "modernise" unhindered - (except perhaps for their imediate neighbours on the steppes).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 21:57
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

In that case Britain would be a very isolated Island... perhaps by now as advanced as New GuineaLOL

 
Sorry, Pinguin, albeit much reduced, those British Isles would be part of the Icelandic archipelago attached to North America! And there the rub...since Laurasia consisted of the North American and Eurasian plates. Let's hear it for everybody else in Gondwana!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 22:01
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

... 
Sorry, Pinguin, albeit much reduced, those British Isles would be part of the Icelandic archipelago attached to North America! And there the rub...since Laurasia consisted of the North American and Eurasian plates. Let's hear it for everybody else in Gondwana!
 
And probably settled by Inuits, rather than by Caucasians, I bet Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 22:20
Europe didn't exist. It was built by aliens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 01:08
Democracy might have never been born.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

- Albert Einstein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 01:17
Originally posted by SPQR SPQR wrote:

Democracy might have never been born.
 
Hate to tell you, SPQR, that foetus was aborted the minute the pater familias mused about what was going on in the cave while he was out hunting!


Edited by drgonzaga - 17 Dec 2009 at 01:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 01:23
If Europe had not existed it would not be on the map of classical Risk.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 01:32
@ Fantasus... Your analysis looks very interesting. Let's analyze it.
 
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

...
If we changed the question a bit, asking for what had happened if there was no  european scientic, economic and technological revolution and no big geographical expansion either since the middle ages(cose the year perhaps 1400 or 1450 I think that could have been the case, and the planets would have been inhabited byhumans) ? Then the world would probably have been spared a lot of suffering and problems ("humans vs. nature"). On the other hand there is little reason to believe that anything like the modern world as we know it existed. No globalism, no industrialism, very little like modern communications and transportation, machines, sciences, etcetera. The primary sources of power:msucles, animals or wind (for sailing and perhaps windmills) some waterpower, perhaps some chinese technologies more refined? Why not most humans still unaware of each others existance?
 
 
Well, the Scientific and Industrial revolution was rooted in Europe by just a matter of luck. Let's not forget that Europe received at the late Middle Ages lot of influences from the Muslims and Mongolian peoples, which brough lot of knowledge from the ancient times, from India and China.
 
If Europe didn't exist, perhaps the development would have taken a bit more, but I doubt mankind would stop from developing because one corner of Eurasia was missing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 06:15
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

There would be no parliamentary republics


LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 08:58
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

@ Fantasus... Your analysis looks very interesting. Let's analyze it.
 
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

...
If we changed the question a bit, asking for what had happened if there was no  european scientic, economic and technological revolution and no big geographical expansion either since the middle ages(cose the year perhaps 1400 or 1450 I think that could have been the case, and the planets would have been inhabited byhumans) ? Then the world would probably have been spared a lot of suffering and problems ("humans vs. nature"). On the other hand there is little reason to believe that anything like the modern world as we know it existed. No globalism, no industrialism, very little like modern communications and transportation, machines, sciences, etcetera. The primary sources of power:msucles, animals or wind (for sailing and perhaps windmills) some waterpower, perhaps some chinese technologies more refined? Why not most humans still unaware of each others existance?
 
 
Well, the Scientific and Industrial revolution was rooted in Europe by just a matter of luck. Let's not forget that Europe received at the late Middle Ages lot of influences from the Muslims and Mongolian peoples, which brough lot of knowledge from the ancient times, from India and China.
 
If Europe didn't exist, perhaps the development would have taken a bit more, but I doubt mankind would stop from developing because one corner of Eurasia was missing.
  First something that might be seen as a repetition of what I have allready wrote: The very idea that we can imagine what could have happened if any larger part of the world did not exist physical ("was covered with water") to me seems a bit absurd, since the very rocks etcetera has origins billions, or rather thousands of billions years back, That mean not only we cannot be certain we can assume "everything else equal" - we can be quite certain it would have been a totally different planet(not least different species - I just read dinosaurs origin was south american and be sure much else originated in Europe. So "if not any continent existed" we could as well say the world would be dominated by advanced trilobites!)
Then to what Your latest post says: I will certainly not deny external influences and its importance for european civilisation. On the other hand I will doubt any of those other parts (mainly the other parts of Eurasian world but to some extend North Afrika) were very close to exploit there advantages to anything like the degree that europeans did. China about 1400 may in many respects have been "most advanced" but perhaps it did not matter that much. Why? Their "follow up" were not so much technological and scientific advancements,  nor geographical expansion (after initial years they abandoned most of the later). No, their later great achievements were building of large canals for internal communication, The Great Wall (impressing, but hardly the road to "modern world", the Forbidden City. I think if You will argue they were close to create a "global world", to explore the continents (above the largely abandoned early Ming explorations), to create a machine and non-muscle powered production, or any scientific revolution orm "modernised society" You are welcome. But please give just some little evidence!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 10:16
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

   

 China about 1400 may in many respects have been "most advanced" but perhaps it did not matter that much. Why? Their "follow up" were not so much technological and scientific advancements,  nor geographical expansion (after initial years they abandoned most of the later). No, their later great achievements were building of large canals for internal communication, The Great Wall (impressing, but hardly the road to "modern world", the Forbidden City. I think if You will argue they were close to create a "global world", to explore the continents (above the largely abandoned early Ming explorations), to create a machine and non-muscle powered production, or any scientific revolution orm "modernised society" You are welcome. 

 

As for China, maybe it would have been somewhat different after all. One reason that China did not explore the world in the same way as Europeans (by sea) was the threat by different central Asian peoples. That was (together with ideology) one of the reasons why the Ming ended its great voyages on the Indian Ocean and started to look inwards. The resources spent on the treasure fleet and the costly sea expeditions were needed in the defence against threats from the North.

 

The dynamics of central Asia was rather complicated, with contacts over a large area. Without  Europe maybe that dynamic would have looked different so China would not have been affected in the same way. Which it its turn could have led China on another way, with overseas colonies, and the extraction of resources from there. Such a development could have influenced technological and political change so that China would have been led in another direction.

 

And if China would have expanded over the oceans, then they would not have met any concurrence from Europe.

 

And the concurrence from the Islamic world? Maybe without Europe there would have never been any Islam, or any Islamic world.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 12:56
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

And the concurrence from the Islamic world? Maybe without Europe there would have never been any Islam, or any Islamic world.

 
Why ?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 13:23
Nothing that we know and recognise today would have been the same.  I find some of the things discussed a bit stupid since China nor any other cultural entity as we know it today would ever have been.

If there was no such thing as the continental land mass of Europe, the humans who migrated there would have stayed in Asia which would have made everything compeltely different and completely unpredictable.  In fact the only area in the world to be possibly unaffected by this would have been sub-saharan Africa and possibly the 'Australoid' populations, since it is speculated they left Africa well before the rest of us.


Edited by Zagros - 17 Dec 2009 at 13:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 14:23
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

And the concurrence from the Islamic world? Maybe without Europe there would have never been any Islam, or any Islamic world.

 
Why ?
 
Al-Jassas
 
Because without Europe the socio political circumstances that were present in the the Middle East and in the Arabian peninsula could have been so much different. In such different circumstances maybe Islam would have not came into being. Also Christianity would maybe never have arisen since  the circumstances regarding Jesus life and death, and also later the spread of Christianity was depending on the Romans, who came from Europe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 15:30
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

...
If there was no such thing as the continental land mass of Europe, the humans who migrated there would have stayed in Asia which would have made everything compeltely different and completely unpredictable.  In fact the only area in the world to be possibly unaffected by this would have been sub-saharan Africa and possibly the 'Australoid' populations, since it is speculated they left Africa well before the rest of us.


I don't agree. If Europe didn't exist, the barbarians would have stayed in Asia and theirs numbers would never have exploded, because the competitions with other populations. The rest would have been more or less the same.
Now, given that Mesopotamia is the origin of civilization, so at least the start would be the same. Second, Egypt would also have existed, like the Middle East as we know today, and inventions such as the wheel, iron, the alphabet and geometry would have developed, too.
The Greek enlightment would have been a bit more difficult, but don't forget the early Greek phylosophers lived in Turkey, rather than in Greece. Even more, a genious like Phytagoras was Phoenician. So why wouldn't the "Greek" genious have appeared in Persia instead? Confused
We can easily forget about the Roman Empire, and other stages.
In short, the world would be about the same with Europe or without it. It may take longer, but mankind would have gotten there, anyways.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 16:02
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

...
If there was no such thing as the continental land mass of Europe, the humans who migrated there would have stayed in Asia which would have made everything compeltely different and completely unpredictable.  In fact the only area in the world to be possibly unaffected by this would have been sub-saharan Africa and possibly the 'Australoid' populations, since it is speculated they left Africa well before the rest of us.


I don't agree. If Europe didn't exist, the barbarians would have stayed in Asia and theirs numbers would never have exploded, because the competitions with other populations. The rest would have been more or less the same.
Now, given that Mesopotamia is the origin of civilization, so at least the start would be the same. Second, Egypt would also have existed, like the Middle East as we know today, and inventions such as the wheel, iron, the alphabet and geometry would have developed, too.
The Greek enlightment would have been a bit more difficult, but don't forget the early Greek phylosophers lived in Turkey, rather than in Greece.
Yes, but that's not where they came from. They came to Ionia from Europe not the other way around.
 
Still, my point throughout had been that, whether it's without Europe or without the Americas, things would on the whole not be very different. People would still be people and human nature would still be human nature, and whatever religion is true, if any, would still be true. (Even the Greek gods, without Europe, would still be living on a mountain somewhere, just not Olympus.)
Quote
Even more, a genious like Phytagoras was Phoenician. So why wouldn't the "Greek" genious have appeared in Persia instead? Confused
We can easily forget about the Roman Empire, and other stages.
In short, the world would be about the same with Europe or without it. It may take longer, but mankind would have gotten there, anyways.
Precisely. And it's exactly the same with regard to the Americas, or Asia, or Africa or wherever else you care to leave out.


[/QUOTE]


Edited by gcle2003 - 17 Dec 2009 at 16:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 16:12

Pinguin your grasp of genealogy is as firm as that on plate tectonics! With the exception of Gallia Narbonensis...the Mediterranean world would have been more or less intact absent the Eurasian plate! Given that the "Persians" originated on the Russian steppes (according to the latest surmises), no Europe no Parsis either! Furthermore no pesky Dorians, Ionians, and other assorted Hellenes either but instead the proud towers of Illium would still stand, not to mention the "Sea People" and the Etruscans.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 16:23
You miss the point.  Those barbarians you describe, Pinguin, included the ancestors of Persians and that touches on my point.  The Indo-Europeans would probably not have formed nor disseminated, since the geography of their formation would not have existed.  They would have travelled likely in the same direction as the ancestors of the Chinese and it would thus have created a completely different situation in the Far East.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 16:26
And that is to mention nothing of the extinct anthropods since they too would have routed exlusively into Asia and that may have changed the cisrcumstances they faced or perhaps another highly intelligent species of anthropod like ourselves would even have evolved as a result of this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 17:33
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

And the concurrence from the Islamic world? Maybe without Europe there would have never been any Islam, or any Islamic world.

 
Why ?
 
Al-Jassas
 
Because without Europe the socio political circumstances that were present in the the Middle East and in the Arabian peninsula could have been so much different. In such different circumstances maybe Islam would have not came into being. Also Christianity would maybe never have arisen since  the circumstances regarding Jesus life and death, and also later the spread of Christianity was depending on the Romans, who came from Europe.


Shooting from the hip may be fun but not logical. First off the longevity of Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus after he was raised into heaven in spiritual form himself but his disciples and the continuous generations of believers made the religion what it has evolved into. Your understanding of Islam also pales in comparison to your rich expression in alternative theories. Islam is submission to God, which all of God's prophets did throughout history and it didn't start with Muhammad. The religion of Islam did continue after Muhammad in a shape that may and may not be foreign to him had he had a chance to evaluate it as it stands now, yet, it would have continued since God proclaimed to humankind to believe in His oneness. Plus, Islam came to the Arabs (one reason) since they were an ummi people, not a people of the book (scripture) prior to Muhammad but a flourishing bunch of pagans with many gods (not withstanding the occasional Christian arab); and Quran is not just for Arabs since the message is universal.

Had Europe not been a continent then, of course, a great part of history would have been altered.
The history of Islam would have been different without a Europe but the origins and purpose of Islam was never in doubt itself.
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