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What if God would have had a wife?

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    Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 19:58

What if God have had a wife, or rather what if the ancient Hebrews sometimes in the 8th or 7th centuries bc had taken up the worship of the deity Asherah who is sometimes referred to as the wife of Jahve. If such a notion would have remained in their beliefs how would the the Abrahamitic religions have evolved. Would they have existed at all?

And if they still had existed would the belief in an accompanying female deity has lessened the soewhat neurotic view of sexuality and the castration angst that sometimes have characterised parts of these religions?

Would the opression of women have been as hard as it often has been? Would the view of homosexuals have been alike? Would the persecution of so called witches among Christians have occured?

Just some questions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 05:50

Arguably it would have been more Catholic, especially Roman, since that represents a blending in of Great Goddess religious attitudes. I suspect you shoûld be asking would the Reformation have taken place if northern European Christianity had had a less aggresively masculine predecessor.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 06:42
Doesn't god have a wife already? Mary is supposed to be his wife otherwise Jesus can't be son of god!Ermm

Edited by Harburs - 09 Sep 2011 at 06:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 07:53
Unless... she begot out of wedlock making Jesus... a bastard child.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 19:23

Abrahamic religions refer to belief systems where gods have wives as pagan religions.

One God doesn't mean 'and his Missus', and an antropomorphic God is considered heresy. Your question Carch is mutally exclusive. It's like asking if Norway was Bhutan... ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 20:47
The question is a valid one however, even if it is recast as 'what if the Abrahamic religions had been polytheist, and had had a co-equal female divinity?' A better comparism would be what if Finland was Scandinavian? It isn't much use simply answering it couldn't be because it isn't.
A similar reasonable question, is one accepts alternative history at all, would be what if the Great Mother had become dominant in Rome rather than the Father.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Srinath Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 21:57

What if God have had a wife?.....

 
The question arises from the general fallacy of attributing  form and gender to  the supreme Godhead.
 
Many of the ancient civilisations have worshipped the sacred feminine.   However the worship of the sacred feminne has been no guarantee for the liberation of women as  most of the societies  have  always been patriarchal and male dominated.
 
I don't see how the gender of the supreme God head would have affected sexuality or the sexual preferences of mankind.
 
 The atrocities during inquistion, it has to be remembered, were perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church which venerated the blessed virgin Mary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 23:46
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

I don't see how the gender of the supreme God head would have affected sexuality or the sexual preferences of mankind.
Check the role of homosexuals, transexuals and castrati in the worship of Cybele. Or less drastically perhaps in Hinduism: http://www.galva108.org/faq.html#3
 
In any case the suggestion here is that there isn't - or is assumed not to be - a 'supreme Godhead'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2011 at 04:14
Well, I am one crotchety old god in my personal universe that is always on the lookout for a companion goddess!Evil Smile Sorry, but I just could not resist given the "nature" of this outlandish thread and how it flies in the face of what is sound Theological analysis, specially within the context of Christianity alone. Now bring on the Vestal Virgins!

Edited by drgonzaga - 10 Sep 2011 at 04:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2011 at 05:19
You forget I think the penalties associated with dalliance with a Vestal. Best of luck, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2011 at 19:44

The Question raised was  If God had a Wife ?. and some of the poster suddenly jumped into the context of Jesus & Mary., If I have read Bible correctly, Jesus has never represented himself as god, he is called "Son of God", Whether Mary had a Test Tube baby or some method of begetting children without sex could have been possible, in Indian Parlance when we look at Mahabharta, The Kunti Devi mother of Pandavas Got her five children from five different Demi Gods through some chant of Mantras,  if some body is to pose a question how it would have happened it cannot be related as no proof is in existenance.

The one commonalities that all religions of the world conclude is that there is a" Super Power
" and that could be taken as God whether you or at best we can consider Nature itself as God. There is a saying that Prakruti & Purusha (Prakruti is nature and it is female form and Purusha is Male form here we can call it creater) is an inseperable of part of human evulotion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2011 at 00:13
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

The Question raised was  If God had a Wife ?. and some of the poster suddenly jumped into the context of Jesus & Mary.,

Carcharodon in rasing the topic, specifically referred to the Hebrew god, and asked what historical diference would it have made if he - the Hebrew God specifically - had had a wife - i.e. presunably that the Old Testament described such a union. Note this a history sub-forum, not a place to discuss let alone preach theology.
 
Alternative history has to take into account the actual sequences and circumstances of events, and it is fairly obvious that the chief effect of Judaism recognising a wife of God would be on the other Abrahamic religions which would presumably (as they did) contiinue with Hebrew tradition. Thatmay have had an effect on the reception afforded Christianity in the Roman Empire, and one of the other actual religions of the area might have won through instead. So they are also relevant to the theme.
 
But frankly I don't think anything to the east of Persia would have had any effect on the history of Europe than it did anyway.  Believing God had a wife would not ease the problem of east-west comunication.
 
The reality or theological soundness of the Bible (or indeed any other book) has nothing to do with anything involved here. Neither is anything to do with the Mahabharata.
 
However if you have some idea that God having a wife in Jewish tradition would by itself had led to Hinduism conquering the Roman Empire, tell us, because that would indeed be alternative history.


Edited by gcle2003 - 11 Sep 2011 at 00:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2011 at 00:20
Well, in case God had a wife we would have a politeistic religion. Nothing new under the sun.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Srinath Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 18:24
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

I don't see how the gender of the supreme God head would have affected sexuality or the sexual preferences of mankind.
Check the role of homosexuals, transexuals and castrati in the worship of Cybele. Or less drastically perhaps in Hinduism: http://www.galva108.org/faq.html#3
 
In any case the suggestion here is that there isn't - or is assumed not to be - a 'supreme Godhead'.
 
The fringes of all religions are dotted with  cults and practices that approach  God through sex- be it the cult of Cybele or  the  Tantric cults of India. In fact there are cults that consider sex as the ultimate  principle  in the universe.   The Kailas Tantra says "Maithunam paramam tatvam, shrushti stithi anya karanam….( Coitus is the ultimate principle behind creation, preservation and destruction of the Universe).
 
However these are   the  exceptions rather than the rule.  The purpose of all religions are necessarily and emphatically much higher and any attempt at  making sex the central purpose of religion ( or for that matter ,way of life )  must be viewed  as unnatural and absurd. 
 
Hinduism ( like many other religions) has used sex for the sublimation of  the physical  energy into the spiritual, but this has primarily been through celibacy.  We in India  have always viewed Tantrism with suspicion given the inherent danger of the means predominating the ends . Therefore the reference to GALVA is both amusing and  astounding--amusing because  of the jejune nature of the association, astounding --because people see India through such absurd windows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 23:29
I think the poster before Srinath should visit Khajrao a temple full of Various poses of Sex.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 01:57
It has been written:
 
The fringes of all religions are dotted with cults and practices that approach God through sex- be it the cult of Cybele or the Tantric cults of India. In fact there are cults that consider sex as the ultimate principle in the universe. The Kailas Tantra says "Maithunam paramam tatvam, shrushti stithi anya karanam….( Coitus is the ultimate principle behind creation, preservation and destruction of the Universe).
However these are the exceptions rather than the rule. The purpose of all religions are necessarily and emphatically much higher and any attempt at making sex the central purpose of religion ( or for that matter ,way of life ) must be viewed as unnatural and absurd.
 
Only through a refusal to look at History can such a postulate receive acceptance. Sex is at the center of all religions be it in terms of constructive rationale [or Myth] or as expressed in ritual. What is unnatural and absurd is the refusal to recognize such. One can say that religion is all about Sex and Power and one need not even be a radical Feminists to recognize such.
 
Call it the connundrum of Creation and Position and one need not blanch with ascetic outrage to recognize this elemental historical fact.
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Only through a refusal to look at History can such a postulate receive acceptance. Sex is at the center of all religions be it in terms of constructive rationale [or Myth] or as expressed in ritual. What is unnatural and absurd is the refusal to recognize such. One can say that religion is all about Sex and Power and one need not even be a radical Feminists to recognize such.
 
 
[/QUOTE]
 

The surmise that sex is  at the centre of  all religions  in terms of constructive rationale ( or myth) or as expressed in rituals is  evidently due to either an incorrect reading of History or the  misinterpretation of  religion  in terms of the amorous feats of the pagan Gods of distanced cultures within the historic context..

Religion by definition  attempts to  relate humanity to spiritual and moral values and the quest for spirituality inevitably necessitates rising above the call of the flesh. Although in  their mundane trappings, all religions  endorse sexuality , the higher echelons of  religion have always viewed sex as a barrier to spiritual progress. Therefore viewed within the perspective of religion, sexuality is simply an ordinary aspect of human life made holy by the way we approach it.  It is the profane made sacred primarily because of its purpose of procreation.

The fact that  sexuality has been considered as a barrier to spiritual progress finds resonance in  perhaps all the religions of the world.   In Hinduism it has always been  considered that  the sexual act   is a hindrance to the raising of the Kundalini (  the fundamental vital energy).

When Jesus says “Those of you who make yourselves eunuchs for my sake will enter into the kingdom of heaven”  his views on sexuality  become very clear. Even Judaism whose primary mitzvah  is to be fruitful and  multiply had a sect which practiced absolute  celibacy . In fact the early  desert fathers  were presumed to be a outgrowth of this  monastic  sect..

Even when relgions have sanctioned sexuality it is primarily because of its force as the creative power of life, of the universe in a  state of becoming and not  merely a genital activity intended to benumb the mind  into ecstasy. When , therefore,  an assertion is made  that ‘ religion is all about Sex and Power’,   the grand  confusion between sexuality and  genital activity is all too apparent.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 21:52
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Only through a refusal to look at History can such a postulate receive acceptance. Sex is at the center of all religions be it in terms of constructive rationale [or Myth] or as expressed in ritual. What is unnatural and absurd is the refusal to recognize such. One can say that religion is all about Sex and Power and one need not even be a radical Feminists to recognize such.
 The surmise that sex is  at the centre of  all religions  in terms of constructive rationale ( or myth) or as expressed in rituals is  evidently due to either an incorrect reading of History or the  misinterpretation of  religion  in terms of the amorous feats of the pagan Gods of distanced cultures within the historic context..

Religion by definition  attempts to  relate humanity to spiritual and moral values

Not by definition does it

The rest of your post merely goes to confirm that in one way or another religions in general historically are obsessed by sex.
Quote
 
and the quest for spirituality inevitably necessitates rising above the call of the flesh. Although in  their mundane trappings, all religions  endorse sexuality , the higher echelons of  religion have always viewed sex as a barrier to spiritual progress. Therefore viewed within the perspective of religion, sexuality is simply an ordinary aspect of human life made holy by the way we approach it.  It is the profane made sacred primarily because of its purpose of procreation.

The fact that  sexuality has been considered as a barrier to spiritual progress finds resonance in  perhaps all the religions of the world.   In Hinduism it has always been  considered that  the sexual act   is a hindrance to the raising of the Kundalini (  the fundamental vital energy).

When Jesus says “Those of you who make yourselves eunuchs for my sake will enter into the kingdom of heaven”  his views on sexuality  become very clear. Even Judaism whose primary mitzvah  is to be fruitful and  multiply had a sect which practiced absolute  celibacy . In fact the early  desert fathers  were presumed to be a outgrowth of this  monastic  sect..

Even when relgions have sanctioned sexuality it is primarily because of its force as the creative power of life, of the universe in a  state of becoming and not  merely a genital activity intended to benumb the mind  into ecstasy. When , therefore,  an assertion is made  that ‘ religion is all about Sex and Power’,   the grand  confusion between sexuality and  genital activity is all too apparent.



Edited by gcle2003 - 13 Sep 2011 at 21:54
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lex parsimoniae
Occam bleeds in his grave!!!!!!!!
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I would say that the entire Human race is the sub product of sexual habitation as such Sex is the reason for any civilisation and religions are by product of civilisation as such Sex is the reason for existenance.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 04:59
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

lex parsimoniae
Occam bleeds in his grave!!!!!!!!
What does William have to do with it?
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I am sure that  every one of us knows what Occam's razor is all about.

The razor is a principle that suggests that we should tend towards simpler theories until we can trade some simplicity for increased explanatory power.  It has been misinterpreted to mean " the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one"
 
 

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Fee, fo, fi fum I smell extraneous bleedings from Wikidom. What next, the "necessary entity"?
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Are you taking about wiki leaks, becoz Americans are after Assanage! how ridiculous the information could be from any source, one should be bothered about the information in particular. Any historical essay's are full of inferences from various sources and based on those refers one own point of vew is derived.Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Srinath Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 21:58
Ramesh, is it possible that  William of  Ockham stole this  principle from the   Doc  who in his endless quest of Googling stumbled upon it  one fine summer afternoon?  But William of Ockham lived in the 14th century....................... if  so ' Age cannot wither our Doc nor custom stale his infinite variety ' 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 23:34
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

I am sure that  every one of us knows what Occam's razor is all about.

The razor is a principle that suggests that we should tend towards simpler theories until we can trade some simplicity for increased explanatory power.  It has been misinterpreted to mean " the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one"
 
 
So? I repeat my question - what does William have to do with any of this? I fully agree that people here will know what Ockham's Razor is. They even, unlike you, may know what the correct formulation of it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 01:14
Is this Wonderland? Apparently Tweedledee and Tweedledum have struck the ominous chords dum dee dum dum here, as elsewhere,in their efforts to perch atop Humpty Dumpty's wall. Worse they wish to employ that seating in an effort to personalize discussion. If they are interested in the perspective achieved by another from the catbird seat they are certainly bent upon approaching the precipice while littering the landscape with extraneous quotations (mauled or otherwise). ENOUGH! Otherwise the outcome will not be a pretty one... 
 
The subject itself is ahistorical and the proposition of God gone awifing is but notice that some have just too much time on their hands.


Edited by drgonzaga - 15 Sep 2011 at 01:23
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I fully agree with one statement Doctor, that SOME HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON THEIR HANDSSmile
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This whole premise implies that "God" is a male or thinks like a human male much like the Zeus of ancient Greece. While the bible says he made "man in his image" not exactly like him. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2011 at 12:39
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  ENOUGH!


Come on, doc. When people here say "GOD" don't mean "DOC".... God is not the same that Doc... no matter they sound similar. Wink
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