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What if the Americas never existed?

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2014 at 10:55
Pinguin wrote:
 "but I do know that the horse developed in the Americas, too. And that would had made a big difference in the development of mankind."
 
No, the horse developed and was domesticated on the Eurasian Steppe.
 
With respect to agriculture, just imagine a world without potatos, tomatos, maize, avocados, strawberries, vanilla, chocolate, peanuts, pineapples, and thousand agricultural products more.
 
These are not confined to the Americas. Many are to be found on Pacific Islands. There were and are alternatives.
 
Just imagine a world without rubber and how we could drive our cars with wheels made of wood Confused.
 
Rubber is an Asian product!
 
Imagine a world without quinine, where Africa was never colonized. Imagine a world without the red jackets of the U.S. Independence. Imagine a world without platinum, or without the rubber pears that help clean out bellies when people got sick Confused.
 
What are you smoking? This has nothing to do with the Americas.
Some European Regiments wore red jackets long before the Americans.
The Americans DID NOT colonise Africa.
 
Imagine a world without Rum. A world without Tequila. A world whitout the inventions of the U.S. or the painters of Mexico. A world without tacos !!
 
The inventions of the US, like Gangsta Rap? Malformation of the English Language?
It may come as something of a shock to you, but the overwhelming majority of the worlds master painters came from Europe. 
Guess again about the origins of Tacos.
 
Would Europe have developed as it did without the gold, silver, sugar, rum, cotton and tobacco from the Americas?
 
The world should be thankful for tobacco??
Gold and Silver were available elsewhere.
The Chinese had silk, the rest of the known world managed quite well without cotton.
What did people like the Egyptians use for their basic clothing? And where did they get it?
Not the Americas, that's for sure.
 
The question has been asked.
 
Yes, but it's predicated on a load of rubbish, inaccurate information.
 
Mate, you're on a roll....all downhillThumbs Down


Edited by toyomotor - 04 Mar 2014 at 10:59
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 00:53
Sir. The horse and the camel evolved in the Americas. I won't insist on that, because it is true. Just look to an encyclopedia.

Sir. I take it as an insult that you don't know potatos, tomatos, maize, avocados, strawberries, vanilla, chocolate, peanuts, pineapples are native to the Americas!!! From this list only strawberries also existed in Europe. All the rest are from the New World, and only from there. Polynesia only had the sweet potato in common with the Americas. And that is it.

Rubber is not Asian!!! It is from the Americas as well. The plants were brought to Asia in colonial times.

Sir. Get informed what was the tincture used to make those british jackets red!! It was an aztec insect! Get informed what quinine is and what it does, and how it is used agains malary!

If you want to refute what I said, the less I could ask is that you study first! You didn't sir. Just go back of here and get out of this tread!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 01:00
By the way, in your sarcastic commentary on cloths, you should know (I bet you don't, anyways) that the best cotton is from the Americas. And also you should know (I bet you either) some of the finest textiles were made by the Incas.

Well, At lest you knew that tacos are from the Americas. That's a good start.

"Nobody is born with knowledge" Spanish saying, that I could bet is from the Americas :)




Edited by pinguin - 11 Mar 2014 at 01:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 01:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Sir. The horse and the camel evolved in the Americas. I won't insist on that, because it is true. Just look to an encyclopedia.

Sir. I take it as an insult that you don't know potatos, tomatos, maize, avocados, strawberries, vanilla, chocolate, peanuts, pineapples are native to the Americas!!! From this list only strawberries also existed in Europe. All the rest are from the New World, and only from there. Polynesia only had the sweet potato in common with the Americas. And that is it.

Rubber is not Asian!!! It is from the Americas as well. The plants were brought to Asia in colonial times.

Sir. Get informed what was the tincture used to make those british jackets red!! It was an aztec insect! Get informed what quinine is and what it does, and how it is used agains malary!

If you want to refute what I said, the less I could ask is that you study first! You didn't sir. Just go back of here and get out of this tread!!


 
You missed the point completely.
 
In the battle of wits I'm fighting an unarmed man!
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 00:41
Well, if you missed the point, don't worry. Just study the ancient history of the Americas and you'll see I know about the topic and I am right in all the points above.

If the Americas had never existed, we wouldn't be in the Modern World today. We would still be in the Middle Ages. it is clear?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 00:51
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, if you missed the point, don't worry. Just study the ancient history of the Americas and you'll see I know about the topic and I am right in all the points above.

If the Americas had never existed, we wouldn't be in the Modern World today. We would still be in the Middle Ages. it is clear?

Of the things that you've mentioned, how many haven't or couldn't be replaced by others?
 
Cotton has been replaced by flax and wool. Silk also came into the picture.
 
Rubber is Asian.
 
The fruits and vegetables you mention are not absolutely necessary for sustaining life. Many others can, and have replaced them.
 
Is it clear?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 00:55
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, if you missed the point, don't worry. Just study the ancient history of the Americas and you'll see I know about the topic and I am right in all the points above.

If the Americas had never existed, we wouldn't be in the Modern World today. We would still be in the Middle Ages. it is clear?

Please supply your sources for your claims that the horse and the camel evolved in the Americas.
 
How do you explain the fact that when the Aztecs first saw the Spanish riding horses, they thought it was one huge animal instead of man and horse?
 
How do you explain the fact that the Mongols and other Steppe tribes had horses two thousand or more years ago?
 
Of the things that you've mentioned, how many haven't or couldn't be replaced by others?
 
Cotton has been replaced by flax and wool. Silk also came into the picture.
 
Rubber is Asian.
 
The fruits and vegetables you mention are not absolutely necessary for sustaining life. Many others can, and have replaced them.
 
Is it clear?
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 04:13
Rubber is not Asian. Brits transplanted plants in South East Asia, but the origin is American. Please don't ask me to read for you.

http://inventors.about.com/cs/inventorsalphabet/a/rubber_2.htm

Camels evolved in North America. http://nature.ca/notebooks/english/wstcamel.htm

And horses, too. http://www.livescience.com/9589-surprising-history-america-wild-horses.html

And sure, synthetic fibers have replaced many fibers, but the American cotton was superior to Asian, and that was the cotton of the Industrial Revolution.

By the way, horses and camels migrated to Asia, and by the time Europeans arrived to the Americas there weren't horses anymore in this part of the world.

And, of course, Europeans and Asians survived (barely, with hunger striking quite often) with a diet that lacked American foods for thousand of years. But potatoes, tomatoes, corn, chocolates, pineapples, vanilla, chiles and many other foods are among the most consumed in the world today. And there is one reason for that: they are good.

And if you don't like prehispanic indigenous heritage, at least consider that in contemporary history without the U.S. imperial rule, Europe would still be disintegrating in endless wars.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 05:13
penguin:
Your saying it doesn't make it so!
 
I'm singularly unimpressed with the sources you've provided.
 
Your Amerocentric (is that even a word?) rant is also unimpressive.
 
Look back at what others have written on this thread, I'm not the only one to disagree with you.
 
Thou are but a pimple on the seat of mankind, thou flea bitten varlet thou!Smile 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 05:26
From your own source:
 
Modern horses, zebras, and asses belong to the genus Equus, the only surviving genus in a once diverse family, the Equidae. Based on fossil records, the genus appears to have originated in North America about 4 million years ago and spread to Eurasia (presumably by crossing the Bering land bridge) 2 to 3 million years ago. Following that original emigration, there were additional westward migrations to Asia and return migrations back to North America, as well as several extinctions of Equus species in North America.

The last prehistoric North American horses died out between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago, at the end of the Pleistocene, but by then Equus had spread to Asia, Europe, and Africa.

Animals that on paleontological grounds could be recognized as subspecies of the modern horse originated in North America between 1 million and 2 million years ago. When Linnaeus coined the species name, E. caballus, however, he only had the domesticated animal in mind. Its closest wild ancestor may have been the tarpan, often classified as E. ferus; there is no evidence, though, that the tarpan was a different species. In any case the domesticated horse probably did not arise at a single place and time, but was bred from several wild varieties by Eurasian herders.

http://inventors.about.com/cs/inventorsalphabet/a/rubber_2.htm doesn't prove that rubber didn't exist in Asia.
 
By the way, horses and camels migrated to Asia, and by the time Europeans arrived to the Americas there weren't horses anymore in this part of the world.
 
Yes, I've heard of back migration.
And, of course, Europeans and Asians survived (barely, with hunger striking quite often) with a diet that lacked American foods for thousand of years. But potatoes, tomatoes, corn, chocolates, pineapples, vanilla, chiles and many other foods are among the most consumed in the world today. And there is one reason for that: they are good.
 
Won't argue that with you. Yes, they're very enjoyable, and mostly healthy too, but hardly essentials of life. Man existed for thousands of years without them.
 
 PS-Evolution of the horse, and domestication of the horse are two different things. Although I will agree that domestication is part of its evolution ON THE STEPPE.


Edited by toyomotor - 16 Mar 2014 at 05:28
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 05:32
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
Without the Americas, Africa would have been conquered much earlier because people wouldn't have been distracted by the Americas. Malaria only seriouosly affects a few regions of Africa, and those not the richest (and therefore most desirable).
Harly. The fact is tropical Africa killed the settlers with theirs contagious disseases.
In the modern vernacular, this is SO not true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 06:11
penguin:
Have a look at the following article about horses, and tell me what you think.
 
 
I found this article on the Ancient History web site. It squarely places domestication of the horse in the Steppe area.

This overview examines the impact of horsepower on Old World society over the last 6,000 years. Analysis of man’s symbiosis with the domesticated horse necessarily takes the reader to regions remote from urban centers and pays special attention to mobile elements of nomadic society, too often deemed marginal or transitory. The discussion first grapples with the question of horse domestication on the steppes c. 4000 BC, a topic long fraught with bitter controversy. With the recent dissolution of the Soviet Union, however, Russian scholarship became more accessible, and rapport has grown warmer between western and eastern researchers. In light of new evidence and new interpretations, our discussion will attempt to summarize at a high level the salient points of scholarly debate: the general location at which initial horse domestication took place; the manner in which domestication was accomplished; and way in which the horse underwent the transition from being a food-providing animal to its transport role in pack, draft, and riding.

By examining early Indo-European migrations and those of later ethnic groups, we will note both the important adaptations that enabled intrepid agro-pastoralists to traverse the hostile continental interior and the momentous impact of mobile equestrianism on cultures beyond the steppes. While it is true that mobile horsemen relentlessly harassed the imperial armies of sedentary states, it is also true that their far-ranging routes across forbidding steppes, deserts, and mountains afforded rapid transport of distant trade goods, both essential and exotic. With trade went cultural exchange: adoption of different cultigens, implementation of new technologies, introduction of foreign inventions, dissemination of ideas, diffusion of religions, the spread of science and art. The history of the horse explores this dual reality: on the one hand, in battle the destructiveness of the warhorse, yet on the other, in the wake of conquest, the constructiveness of horsepower in greatly extending the scale and complexity of civilization. The politico-military and economic importance of the horse will thus be examined in the rise of the Hittite, Achaemenid, Chinese, Arab, and Mongol empires.

Sino-Platonic Papers, No.190 (20)
 by Pita  Keleknek
 


Edited by toyomotor - 16 Mar 2014 at 06:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 15:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

penguin:
Your saying it doesn't make it so!
 
I'm singularly unimpressed with the sources you've provided.
 
Your Amerocentric (is that even a word?) rant is also unimpressive.
 
Look back at what others have written on this thread, I'm not the only one to disagree with you.
 
Thou are but a pimple on the seat of mankind, thou flea bitten varlet thou!Smile 


What about the sources? Those are the EASIEST sources to find. If you want better sources, either I can provide for you, or you can look for yourself.
And Indeed. I am Amerocentric. I believe this is a wonderful part of the world, and I feel very upset with the Eurocentric view of the world. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 15:22
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

doesn't prove that rubber didn't exist in Asia.


You don't need to prove it. It is an historical fact. I am surprise you insist in something that is part of common knowledge. Do you know Mesoamericans had rubber balls thousand years ago?
Asians didn't have rubber. They received this plant from the Europeans, together with chiles, quinine, tomatoes and so and so. Sure, Asians probably would say rubber was theirs, but that is false.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2014 at 15:27
On horses and camels again. Horses and camels were domesticated in Asia, that's for sure. My only point it is that those animals evolved in the Americas. Therefore, without the Americas we wouldn't have horses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2014 at 00:46
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

On horses and camels again. Horses and camels were domesticated in Asia, that's for sure. My only point it is that those animals evolved in the Americas. Therefore, without the Americas we wouldn't have horses.
One last comment.
 
There is a school of thought which believes that evolution of the horse may have been in several locations, about roughly the same time.
 
A Wikipedia article looks at the Evolution of the Horse in some detail.
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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