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Where did the first Cossacks come from?

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    Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 02:29
Traditional historiographical accounts say that they emerged in the 14th to 15 centuries, but from where? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 03:15
OOOO!! A challenge!! Want me to do some research on this?
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 04:41
By all means Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 03:03
Wish me luck!!
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2012 at 21:31
I will try too..
I would say South Eastern Ukraine..
Every ideology has a kernel of truth and sea of whitewash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2012 at 07:45
Best of luck to both of you then Smile

Interesting, where is Sarmat? This would be right up his ally.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2012 at 09:53
It occurs to me that 'Cossacks' are rather like 'Texans' at the time of the Lone Star State - for Mexicans read Khanates and for Russia/Ukraine read the US - as long as you include the local native Indians with Texans. . 

Cossacks were the inhabitants of the borderlands between the Khanates and the Slav states of Russia and the Ukraine and, at times, Poland. Mostly they were Slavs who had migrated there, but they included descendants of earlier peoples in the region. 

Later as Russia in particular became more highly organised as a feudal state, 'Cossacks' included numbers of runaway serfs and their descendants. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2012 at 22:56
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Best of luck to both of you then Smile

Interesting, where is Sarmat? This would be right up his ally.

 
Big smile  You opened Pandora's box. I will come back soon with all sorts of crazy theories about the subject...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buerebista 12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2013 at 20:41
Hi,
I know that they have came from S.E. Ukraine, and till today they are a rather 'vandal' militia or paramilitar troops. They have allways only destroyed where they have been in campagne, from XIV-th century untill contemporary ex-soviet conflicts, like Moldova in '92, when they have lynched people just because they were Romanians and then crucified them on the Nistru river banks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2013 at 04:31
hmm, just a guess, but I would expect that they originated on the Asian steppes, and pushed westward into the Ukraine, Russia, and Poland. The challenge to geneticists, of course, is that many Cossacks later went the other way, extending Russia's eastern borders to where they are today (and beyond).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dvelef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2013 at 12:13
             Halo Gentlemen. My name is Doros and I am new to the forum. I am from Greece, but my Granfather was a Cossack. His name was Ataman Pantelei Ivanovich Sofienko and he was from Nikolayev. He escaped Russia during the 1918 conflict and migrated to Greece. I can answer any question about the origin of Cossacks.

              In order to find the origins of the Cossacks you must go back in history in the ancient times. All these Nations (The Cossacks, The Mycenaeans, The Ocetians, The Armenians, The Circassians, The Kirgizians) were of Iapetic origin (derived from Iafeth the son of Noah) and together with the Georgians who arrived there letter comprise the 7 tribes of Caucasus. Georgians derive from Egypt (origin from the other son of Noah the Ham). The Mycenaeans migrated to Greece and built their Empire during the ancient years and we can here about them in the Trojan War Epic of Homer etc. If we compare the Anthropological characteristics of the ancient Mycenaeans with the Cossacks, we can see that they are identical. The men had average height 1.75-1.80 and women 1.65-1.70 metres. They had brown eyes, brown hair and white skin. 
      
             The origin of Russians are from Scythes who built a very important civilization and a rather strong Empire during the ancient times but for some unknown reason it faded afterwards. Historians say that climatic changes, water shortage and destruction of their crops from the hard terrain and bad weather conditions, was the reasons that forced the Scythes to live like nomads and abandon their once upon a time mighty Empire. This statement, however, provides one reason why the Cossacks lived like nomads as well. They would probably be exposed to the same hard weather conditions like Scythes, as they lived relatively close. Also these two Nations had relations that led to the origins of the synchronous Russian population. 

              The things became mixed with the interference of Peter the Great. First of all he wanted to crash and vanish any ethnic identity into his newly formed Empire. He boosted the myth of Rus in order to create the context of a united nation. Something not so ethical and even mistaken from political and religious perspective. Because as we can see in several Prophecies in the Bible (Daniel, Ioel, Isaiah and other Prophets), the evil will come from Gog of the land Magog Sovereign of the Rus, Meseh and Thouval. But why the name of this Sovereign is Gog and not Sergei, Anatoly, Ivan, Nikolai and whatever normal Russian name? It is because what those Prophets described as Rus was not the land of Russia. The Prophecies also speak about the outermost of North. This is not necessarily Russian populations. Gog sounds rather as a Swedish name, a Finish or a German name. Not a Russian one. This is actually why Swedish, Germans, and Fins sometimes made battle with Russia. All of them giving respect of the Prophecies, thought that they will be given the chance to conquer Russia. We do not know what will happen those years that the Prophecies speak about, but we know that the word Russia and Russians are rather misleading thanks to the Great Peter.

               As for the 15th Century, you are right. Most of the Historic data refer to the Cossacks about at these periods, because at that time there was the Dawn of the Great Ottoman Empire that consisted a threat to many countries but Cossacks managed to stop the Ottomans Empire's aggression and defeat Ottomans many times in the battlefields. It is true, however, that many people sought refuge in the Cossackish villages and soon joined the Cossacks. So, given all these circumstances, no wonder why so many theories have emerged.

               Now about the origins of the name Cossack. I will provide here the theory of my granfather and you may judge as appropriate. Peoples in Russia confuse the name Cossack with this of Kazakh, a tribe that lives in Kazakhstan, and constitutes a distinct Ethnic Group from this of Cossacks. Both names have been synonymous in Russia with the word nomad, but this is not so precise. I cannot speak for the origins of the word Kazakh, but as far as the word Cossack concerns it derived from the Korean word Ozza which means will power. Cossacks gained their name from a confrontation with regiment of the Korean Army that escorted the Armies of Mongols and Jenkins Khan. Koreans Used Opium to destroy their enemies. They burnt it and its smoke poisoned the rival troops. They did the same thing against the cossacks, but with very poor outcome. Having observed that opium had different effect according to the psychological state of the person that was exposed to it, they realized that the Cossacks were determined to win. And named them as "Kozzacks" (men with power of will). This word was later on paraphrased by the French Cossaque into Cossack. And perhaps the word Kazakh might be a paraphrase of the very same word "Kozzack". It would be no surprise if Koreans were confusing those two native groups the Cossacks with the Kazakhs, and gave the same name to both and latter on this name was paraphrased to give two different words to denote two distinct Ethnic Groups. Kazakhs would also have encountered battles with Koreans and Jenkins Khan and of course they would be as determined as Cossacks for gaining the victory. 

          Well I hope to have provide a credible answer to our question. If you want to ask me something about the origin of the Cossacks or make any comments about my statements, please feel free to do so. Thank you a lot for your attention. Not to miss to wish you Merry Christmas and a Happy New year.       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2013 at 00:42
Well, to my best knowledge the Ukrainian Zaporozhian Cossacks community were first formed in 14 century at the region of today Ukraine downstream of Dnieper River rapids. Ethnically, the Zaporozhian Cossacks were a mixture of all nation of central and south-East Europe but predominantly they were Ukrainian peasant escaped from their feudal landlords.
At this sparsely populated area escapes found shelter and right conditions to forms loosely connected settlement of free warriors (same could say highwaymen) which make a living from raids on neighbouring countries settlements. Nominally, this are was under control of Lithuanian Principality but the central Lithuanian authority could not imposed low and order in their southern borderlands.
After Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was formed in 16 century, Ukraine fall under jurisdiction of Polish Crown.To impose same kind of order and low, Polish Crown enlisted Zaporozhian Cossacks to Polish Standing Army with annual pay and duty to protect south east border of Polish-Lithuanian border against constant raid by Crimean Khanate Tatars.
More information about these fearsome warriors you can find in; http://www.flamesofwar.com/?tabid=53&art_id=696


Edited by Goral - 31 Dec 2013 at 01:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dvelef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2013 at 04:03
Dear Sir,
            The only problem about this theory, is that suffers from a sociological aspect, as it is impossible for a mixture of several nations to remain united within centuries and moreover develop a distinct culture and exceptional skills for the war; from nowhere. Thus it sound more logic that Cossacks preexisted and during the 15th-16th Centuries, sevral people joined with them, in order to seek shelter. Thank you a lot about your repply, Merry Christmas and a happy New year,
Yours faithfully,
Doros Eleftheriou
"If you empty the glass many times at the end the water shall become pure. If you never empty it, the water shall be swarmed with worms" my father Nikolaos Eleftheriou
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 00:39
Dvelef, it is nice to talk to you.
You must remember that any nation has a legends attached to their origins. These legends are not necessary historically correct. As a history of Cossacks is concerned, every source I read is pointing towards communities of escapees from feudal yoke of neighbouring countries but predominantly from what is today Ukraine.
Now, as your statement that there is no possibility that escapees of several nation could form one community and live together for centuries.
There is one simple answer to this question; survival.
As the early Cossacks settlement in lower Dnieper and don river were under constant threat of raid by Crimean Tatars and all neighbouring countries, they have to unite to defend themselves. The danger of invasion is a powerful unification force which go beyond national boundaries.
There is another think regarding origin of Zaporoshian Cossacks. At the beginning, they were not horse mounted warriors. Their livehood depended from successful sea raids. With their agile boats called "chayka" they raided Black Sea and Azov Sea for bounty. They were a constant threat for Ottoman navigation on these waters. See;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_pirates

When the region of lower Dnieper and Don rivers becomes borderlands of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, the Cossacks were enrolled to Polish-Lithuanian Army as an Infantry units, not cavalry. The so called Zaporozhian Infantry at that time was one of the best in Europe.(in 16-17 century).
Only much later the excellent light cavalry evolved from Cossacks units, it happened when the area of Hetman (Cossacks)semi-independent state was incorporated into Russian Empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dvelef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 04:51
Dear Sir,
             Thank you very much for your comment. Yes what You say is absolutely truth. However, in the line of probability it appears that these peoples should have already a paradigm in their minds of how it is like to be a Cossack. Polish had given privileges to them yet those peoples had the image of what is like to be a Cossack, and this was different from being a member in Lithuanian and Polish commonwealth. Moreover they did risked their survival because they engaged in a long scale battle with both Polish and Turkish until they join with Russians. So we do not have here just the matter of survival but identity also. Now where did this identity came from?

                 The fact that Cossacks could change their role and the one time could be pirates, the other peasants, the other warriors, shows that there was once an organized society that they derived from. Which society preexisted that time of the raids and the wars, when other peoples from other Nations. joined the Cossacks and wrote their own piece of History in the Cossackish culture.
               There is also some evidence which may be indicative of the origin of Cossacks. Their similarity with the ancient Spartans and the today's Maniates, who live in Peleponisos, Greece, where Spartans lived at once. All these people, share the same temperament, the same social organization and the same phenotypical characteristics. If we bare in mind, where did the ancient Mycenaeans come from (from  Caucasus and Urals), this is not so surprising. 

                 Now there is a matter that I really would like to know for sure and despite the fact that I have tried to find out the truth, it was not possible for me, because I do not speak Korean. It has been mentioned that there is a Korean word that is pronounced "ozza" and is supposed to mean "the power of will". I do not know if there is such a word or it is a myth. If it is not true, then the whole story of the origin of the name of Cossacks is mistaken and eventually the whole of my theory. If there is such a word,however, it is a good evidence that there must be some truth in my words and then they can be taken more seriously than a myth. In any case, I am not sure about it conclusively, until somebody who speaks Korean could answer me this question. Thank you about your attention. May the new year bring to You and your family, every bless and happiness. May the God keep all of us healthy and well.
Yours Faithfully,
   Doros Eleftheriou
"If you empty the glass many times at the end the water shall become pure. If you never empty it, the water shall be swarmed with worms" my father Nikolaos Eleftheriou
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 01:47
So if we come back to the thread and we try to answer the question where the Cossacks come from, the answer is;
From lower Dniester and Don river. The beginning of Cossacks settlements are in 14-15 century. The escapees from feudal yoke settled on Dnieper island where they created fortified camps. Ethnically, they are mixture of all nations from south east Europe with (present day) Ukrainians representing biggest ethnic group.
In 17,18 and 19 century Cossacks fell under Russian rules and were russified gradually.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dvelef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 04:38
So let's leave the principles of Sociology back. Ok that's absolutely fine. What about the 6th century before our Lord Christ, when the Romans attempted to conquer Ukraine and were attacked by horsemen who managed to repel them? And how can we excuse the fact that a completely different ethnic group this of Kazakhs shares an almost similar name with Cossacks?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 12:54
At 6 century BC power of Rome was limited to Latium province only. South of Italy was colonised by Greeks and Western Sicily was just conquered by Carthage. North of Italian peninsula was ruled by Etruscan.
Roman just disposed their last king (579BC) Lucius Tarquinius Superbus and a fledging Republic was established.
So at that time Roman have been in no position to plan to conquer land which is today Ukraine. Say a true, they never plan it and never send any army in this direction.
Also, it is enough to look at Kazakh and Cossack to know that ethnically they are completely different people.
Cossacks are Caucasians. Kazakh looks as central Asian nomads.

Edited by Goral - 04 Jan 2014 at 12:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dvelef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 16:20
              Oops a severe error here 2nd century before our Lord Christ I must say. Rome conquers the Dacians (Romanians -took their names from Rome), the Thracians, the Bulgars and a slither part of Western Ukraine; in an attempt to circle the Macedonian Empire and cut off the wheat supply routes from the Black Sea. The Romans manage up to some extend their target, but cannot further conquer Ukraine. The reason, horsemen attack their legions with great ferocity, In 146 Before Christ the last stand of Greeks fail and the never again mighty Greek Empire falls under the control of Rome. At its mayday the year 117 BC Rome has under its control the whole coast of modern Ukraine, in the Black Sea, thanks to the powerful navy Romans had built ; yet the mighty Roman Army cannot go away from the coast and conquer the innerland because of those horsemen. Who were they, the horsemen I mean?  
"If you empty the glass many times at the end the water shall become pure. If you never empty it, the water shall be swarmed with worms" my father Nikolaos Eleftheriou
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dvelef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 17:23
As to the Cossacks and Kazzakhs you are absolutely right they are completely different people, but why do they share allmost the same name? By the way I have found any clear answer about the Korean words Ko which means "nose" and sometimes it is fairly pronounced as Ka or even Ke depending on the accent of the Korean who says that, or sometimes it is used to denote somethiing "high" and Jeong (pronounced fairly as "Ja'ng") which means emotional status. So this is where the words Cossack and Kazzakh came from. The Koreans named as Ko-Jeong any person who was resisting to their tactics in battle. So the mystery has been solved. Cossacks (and eventually Kazzakhs pre-existed many centuries before the 15th or 16th that their existence has been officially reported. But due to political reasons of the contemporary ruler Peter the Great their origins, their past memory and their History had been severely suppressed. The reason was to shatter their patriotic emotions so that to avoid a new formation of their independent stated that was governed by Bohdan Khmelnytsky.
             
              My friend I do not want to be misunderstood as Greek that I want to show that all peoples originate from us, but as far as Cossacks concern their origins are as old as our most ancient Greek ancestors. The Mycenaean, the Iones, the Dories. In the ancient Greece there were two legendary tribes this of the Centaurs who were suppossed to be half men half horses. his was a metaphor to denote their obsession about the horses and horsemanship. Many Greek scholars now agree that those horsemen were the ancestors of modern Cossacks. The other mythological tribe was this of Amazons, whose kingdom has been found in the Southern coast of black sea today covering the Northern  coasts of modern Turkey.

             So to conclude, even the so called myths are proved truth at the end, and the only problem is with us, the peoples, we like to call everything a myth and forget the truth.    
"If you empty the glass many times at the end the water shall become pure. If you never empty it, the water shall be swarmed with worms" my father Nikolaos Eleftheriou
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 10:55
Originally posted by Dvelef Dvelef wrote:

               Oops a severe error here 2nd century before our Lord Christ I must say. Rome conquers the Dacians (Romanians -took their names from Rome), the Thracians, the Bulgars and a slither part of Western Ukraine; in an attempt to circle the Macedonian Empire and cut off the wheat supply routes from the Black Sea. The Romans manage up to some extend their target, but cannot further conquer Ukraine. The reason, horsemen attack their legions with great ferocity, In 146 Before Christ the last stand of Greeks fail and the never again mighty Greek Empire falls under the control of Rome. At its mayday the year 117 BC Rome has under its control the whole coast of modern Ukraine, in the Black Sea, thanks to the powerful navy Romans had built ; yet the mighty Roman Army cannot go away from the coast and conquer the innerland because of those horsemen. Who were they, the horsemen I mean?  

Roman conquered Dacia 105–106 AD so you miss this events by 300 years at least
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 10:55
We should discuss here History, not legends
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