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Where was Fusang?

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    Posted: 20 Feb 2012 at 14:27
Well for one that was what my account name was supposed to be...

But seriously where do you think Fusang was? Most modern conventional historians rule out the Americas and that is understandable.

So where does that leave us?

Japan-  I do not think so, I think the Chinese had too much communcation with them during classical history (the Chinese almost built post Jo Mon by themselves)  I think it is beyond the reconkining of a remote bronze age culture besides it was mainly known to the Chinese bureaucracy as Wa by at least 50 A.D perhaps earlier

Central Asia- I dont know much about this theory except that someone known  as Jospeh Needum supports this

Sakhalin- More likely than the other theories but we must keep in mind that only foreign dynasties got near these parts (Yuan, Manchu)

Kamacaha- You might want to check the alt hist section for maps I made yesterday about this theory
I would say that this is pretty unlikely that would go this far north but hey sometimes stranger thing happened- like irish monks going to iceland.

The top are the most famous ideas to the explanation of the 6th century accounts in particular

 
Every ideology has a kernel of truth and sea of whitewash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2012 at 00:03
 What a pity that no one answered this?

I think you may be right about Sakhalin. However, for the sake of a discussion and I know to suggest another alternative different from your list a bit shaky, maybe even a stretch but what about Taiwan? Why not Taiwan?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2012 at 00:35
I would call it unlikely.. but then again it was so close to the mainland... but Tawain was well know to  Chinese Merchants-    It seems that Fusang was visited by a couple of monks one in a blue moon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2012 at 01:03
I know, tantalizingly close. I'm thinking out loud here and am more than likely way off base. But given the lack of wide spread geographical knowledge in that time, couldn't the records of the Buddhist monks be the first documented encounters with the island, let's say around 430 b.c./b.c.e.? The little that i know is that even if they knew of the islands around the third century, a small set up in trade by Chinese merchants might have been set up some time after that period? Given the interval of time before any connection of the islands with fusang were made, the connection between the two was already lost. Just a thought...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2012 at 02:27
Well Buddhists were not even in China then..
but remember the Chinese Ambassadors have been traveling all over Indonesia, why do you think we know so much about the early Indonesian Kingdoms or the early Indian Influenced Funan?
I am also pretty sure that the Chinese had traveled as far the Philippines during the warring states period
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2012 at 02:53
Really? Buddhists weren't in China at that time. I guess i was wrong. Also Looks like i misinterpreted the information i thought i had acquired.

Description of Fusang

Admittedly, i had to do some research on this interesting topic. Apparently my research skills are somewhat lacking on the subject.Embarrassed Thanks for the correction.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2012 at 03:02
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Really? Buddhists weren't in China at that time. I guess i was wrong. Also Looks like i misinterpreted the information i thought i had acquired.

Description of Fusang

Admittedly, i had to do some research on this interesting topic. Apparently my research skills are somewhat lacking on the subject.Embarrassed Thanks for the correction.Smile


Im pretty sure the Buddhists entered China during the Three Kingdoms Period in the 220's ,
I admit to you Im sort of obsessed with this idea even though it's not in America any Chinese Exploration Colonozation outside the east Asian mainland interests me


Edited by fusong - 04 Apr 2012 at 03:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2012 at 03:05
I agree. Any historical mystery is quite fascinating. That's why i looked this up and thought it was neat and gave it a go. Such a short thread and i've already learned much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2012 at 22:23
Just Imagine... even the growth of Chinese Culture in Western Pacific could have paved the road for a a sino sphere later on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 01:11
Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:

Just Imagine... even the growth of Chinese Culture in Western Pacific could have paved the road for a a sino sphere later on


In certain way, that happened indeed, but not with modern Han Chinese. Rather, Austronesian peoples lived in East Asia, China and Taiwan included, long time before the modern Han Chinese displaced them down South. The descendants of Austronesians, spread to Taiwan, Java, Indonesia, and from there a branch colonized places all over South East Asia, India and even Madagascar in the coasts of Africa! Another branch were the Polynesians that conquered all the Pacific!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 01:21
On the other hand, Fusang seems to be a mythical land, like Avalon, El Dorado or many others.
For instance, if we believe to Hui Shen as he wrote in the Liang Shu:

They raised deer for meat and milk, just as the Chinese raised cattle at home, and produced cheese with deer milk

The place couldn't be in the Americas because here cheese was unknown in pre-Colombian times.
The only places were there are domestic deers is in Eurasia, not in the New World. Besides, in another place speak about paper, and paper was only known in the Chinese sphere (China, Japan, sourrounding places), to the West in Arabs and European lands, and in Mexico (which lacked milk producing animals, or anything bigger than a turkey!)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 04:05
Pinguin, the deer description would fit the Lapps, and some Siberian peoples who herded reindeer, which may hark back to Sakhalin. 



Edited by lirelou - 19 Apr 2012 at 04:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 16:57
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguin, the deer description would fit the Lapps, and some Siberian peoples who herded reindeer, which may hark back to Sakhalin. 


interesting glad you brought that up

Sakhalin is most likely place given that later Chinese dynasties actually settled there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 17:46
Fusang, I see where the Chinese sent an expedition to the lower Amur region in the 1400s, but it did not last long. What is your source of information that a 'chinese dynasty" "settled" there? Given that reindeer herders are both nomadic and semi-nomadic, wherever Fusong was before the Christian era may not be where its peoples live now.

Edited by lirelou - 19 Apr 2012 at 17:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 19:49
Recent findings prove that Buddhists entered China much earlier than 3 kingdoms period. They were there already during Qin dynasty. Fusang could be only Japan anything else doesn't make much sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2012 at 02:20
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguin, the deer description would fit the Lapps, and some Siberian peoples who herded reindeer, which may hark back to Sakhalin. 



Certainly. That's more likely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2012 at 16:27
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Fusang, I see where the Chinese sent an expedition to the lower Amur region in the 1400s, but it did not last long. What is your source of information that a 'chinese dynasty" "settled" there? Given that reindeer herders are both nomadic and semi-nomadic, wherever Fusong was before the Christian era may not be where its peoples live now.

The Ming occupied it for 20 years and the manchus fought for land north of the amur  against the Russians. 


Edited by fusong - 20 Apr 2012 at 16:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 06:12
Fusang, There is a lot of land "north of the Amur" river, but Sakhalin is not part of it. It is offshore from the mainland. As for the Ming and Qing, they both came along long after Fusong reportedly existed. The Amur region itself could have been Fusong, if the inhabitants were reindeer herders as the account suggests, their descendents would have moved as the temperatures shifted, a possibility many traditional Lapps (and, I presume, Siberian herders) are now facing.

You did not give me a source, so I'll presume it is wiki. The official Sakhalin history does not mention Chinese  "occupation".  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 10:06
We can't say that Chinese occupied Sakhalin "in-mass" but it had tributary relations with China starting from the Mongolian Yuan dynasty. Ming also made an expedition there and it was considered "a part" of the realm even until Qing at least they extracted tributes from the locals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 18:48
Good point, Sarmat. And, of course, a great many tributaries were neither Chinese governed, nor within Chinese intentions to govern, though those on China's territorial periphery were often considered vassal states by China, and had the right to call upon China for military assistance in times of revolt or troubles (such as the Tonghak (also Donghak) revolt in Korea in the 1890s)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 20:01
Yes, but Sakhalin was more or less within the direct interests of, at least, Qing dynasty. They basically considered it their territory until Russia forced them to abandon all the claims to the lands north of Amur river.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 17:52
Fusang, while I can easily accept the idea that Sakhalin was viewed by the Qing as within their territories, I still wonder if any specific document states that it was administered by the Qing.

For instance, I can easily find citations that prove the Qing extended their administration to Taiwan in 1684, but the island was still considered a 'land of barbarians' despite centuries of Chinese settlement from two Southeast provinces. Qing interest in Taiwan was twofold: First, to crush Ming loyalist Zheng Cheng-gong's base of operations against the Qing, and second, as a source of high grade sulpher necessary for the manufacture of gunpowder.  This per Yu Yong-he's Tales of Formosa, as interpreted by Macabe Keliher in his book "Out of China".

Is there a cite anywhere for the date that Qing administration was established over Sakhalin Island, how long it lasted, and what specific interest would have drawn the Chinese to Sakhalin.

The Russian interest is plain. They were expanding Mother Russia, all the way across the North Pacific through Alaska down to northern California.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 18:28
It's not the "Chinese" interest proper it was a strict Qing-Manchu interest. Qing were kind of paranoid about a possible Chinese uprising and their possible "strategical retreat" to their ancestral land in Manchuria. Because of that no Chinese were allowed to settle there until the second half of the 19th century. Also, because of that in their desire to secure a safe rear and a stable ecconomic base in case of confrontation with China, Manchus were interested in controlling as much land as they can in Manchuria and beyond Amur.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 22:01
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

It's not the "Chinese" interest proper it was a strict Qing-Manchu interest. Qing were kind of paranoid about a possible Chinese uprising and their possible "strategical retreat" to their ancestral land in Manchuria. Because of that no Chinese were allowed to settle there until the second half of the 19th century. Also, because of that in their desire to secure a safe rear and a stable ecconomic base in case of confrontation with China, Manchus were interested in controlling as much land as they can in Manchuria and beyond Amur.


Well thank you Clap

I had never quiet saw the Manchu that way even though they were foreigners they were almost completely sintinc by 1644
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centrix Redux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 02:46
Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:

Well for one that was what my account name was supposed to be...

But seriously where do you think Fusang was? Most modern conventional historians rule out the Americas and that is understandable.

So where does that leave us?

Japan-  I do not think so, I think the Chinese had too much communication with them during classical history (the Chinese almost built post Jo Mon by themselves)  I think it is beyond the reconkining of a remote bronze age culture besides it was mainly known to the Chinese bureaucracy as We by at least 50 A.D perhaps earlier

Central Asia- I don't know much about this theory except that someone known  as Joseph Needham supports this

Sakhalin- More likely than the other theories but we must keep in mind that only foreign dynasties got near these parts (Yuan, Manchu)

Kamacha- You might want to check the alt hist section for maps I made yesterday about this theory
I would say that this is pretty unlikely that would go this far north but hey sometimes stranger thing happened- like irish monks going to iceland.

The top are the most famous ideas to the explanation of the 6th century accounts in particular

 
 
 
According to the alleged expedition of Hui Shen; it's 20,000 li east of Da-han. Which has been id' as the Buryat/Siberia. Assuming a Waring states standard of a li equals 405m...the end result after conversions is 5033 miles east of the aforementioned; assuming a center of sector compass origination shot east.
 
 
Otoh-or....Take a compass heading from 045-135 degrees (you decide) (from the same center of sector) and pick your poison. Or you can do the same by adopting the varying measurements from the Qin or other....further then finding other possible locations and compounding the id. B/L? The legendary and mythic location of the 'mulberry tree of life' remains only in the minds of it's originators.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 20:26
Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:


Well thank you Clap

I had never quiet saw the Manchu that way even though they were foreigners they were almost completely sintinc by 1644
 
What do you mean? Manchus conquered Chine in 1644. But they were not swamped by Chinese all the way through 19th century and there always was a clear distinction between them and Chinese during Qing empire.
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