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Who was first?

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Dec 2017 at 00:02
Controversy still rages as to who the first non-Americans to reach the Americas were.

The following article, which I've reproduced in full, gives rise to speculation that in fact a number of other people visited the Americas before the Vikings and Colombus.

Quote from https://www.theepochtimes.com/curious-history-ancient-egyptians-may-have-traded-with-the-new-world_358318.html?
Among certain scientific and historical circles, the idea that other nations visited the Americas before Christopher Columbus made his historic voyage in 1492 is becoming more accepted.

There is a growing supply of evidence to support the existence of Vikings traveling to the New World approximately 1,000 years ago. Other theories even date voyages by Chinese to the Americas sometime around 1420.

But there is suprising evidence of the ancient Egyptians visiting or having other contact with the Americas as early as 1,000 B.C.

The most intriguing finding is out of Munich, Germany, where German scientists Dr. Svetla Balabanova accidentally discovered the presence of nicotine and cocaine in several Egyptian mummies. These mummies were of ruling class and included the mummy of Lady Henut Taui, who died 3,000 years ago.

In 1992, when there was a push for thorough chemical analysis of mummies, a drug test seemed only natural. However, Balabanova did not expect to find significant amounts of substances that were only found in the Americas—nicotine from tobacco and cocaine from the coca plant, which was not exported overseas until the Victorian era.

The tests were first thought to be contaminated. Later, it was thought that the mummies were fakes from when the king of Bavaria originally bought them. But after authentication, countless tests, and similar results with other specimens, it was determined that the unexplainable had to be the truth.

Originally, ancient Egyptians were thought of to be only Nile River travellers with little knowledge of being able to traverse open seas. According to the Archaeology News Network, however, crafts and cargo containers contain evidence that Egyptians could and did travel in open waters, including the Red Sea.

A unique yet unverified theory places ancient Egyptian explorations as far as the American Southwest. Supposedly in 1909, two Smithsonian-funded explorers, S. A. Jordan and G. E. Kinkaid, discovered a series of caves in the Marble Region of the Grand Canyon. The caves were said to contain a variety of Egyptian-like artifacts including tablets with Hieroglyphics. Their experience was published in the Arizona Gazette on April 5, 1909. Unfortunately, the Smithsonian Institution has no records of finding Egyptian artifacts in the American Southwest.

Of course, visiting Egyptians could explain the pyramide like structures and other great works constructed in the South Americas, curiously not replicated anywhere in North America.

No evidence has ever been produced to show that tobacco and cocaine have ever been grown anywhere but the Americas. To me, if accurate, the above article opens the way to many other non-Americans having visited the continents, possible even the Chinese.

Many people now question the Beringia Land Bridge theory as the route taken by indigenous people reaching the Americas, yet non can dispute the asian phenotypes displayed by many people from both North and South America. Just as some display emphatically European phenotypes in North America.

So, I guess we'll have to wait for the scientists to find more evidence.



Edited by toyomotor - 13 Dec 2017 at 00:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2017 at 12:22
Everyone is going to have pet theories on this subject. We know the Vikings made tentative landings in the northeast but didn't stay, it was an unknown environment to them and not an easy one to survive without knowledge or support - neither of which the Vikings had at that distance from home.
 
I have a deep suspicion that Columbus knew full well the American landmass was there. The official story, although he actually landed in the west indies, has him navigating in secret and handing false notes to his superstitious crew. I cannot help wondering if Columbus had access to a rutter (navigation notes made by seafarers and very valuable documents usually hidden).  Incidentially, England, among other nations, lost an opportunity there because Columbus had been seeking patronage and finance for his voyage all over the place.
 
Thus far I'm unconvinced that the Egyptians made it across the Atlantic, though for that matter,  folklore suggests Vikings made it down the American coast below the equator. Did they? A lost ship somehow struggling through adversity is a possibility. I might well imagine an Egyptian craft steering west from the bulge of Africa, and in ancient times, sea faring lore was surprisingly good. A Chinese diplomat had been sent to find the Roman Empire and ask them for military assistance against the barbarians plaguing Chinese borders. The man reached the Persian Gulf and asked sailors if he could reach Rome by sea. Yes, they said, but one would have to sail around Africa which might take a few months and one would be advised to take supplies to last a couple of years. How did they know that if the journey wasn't regularly practised?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2017 at 05:22
Quote Yes, they said, but one would have to sail around Africa which might take a few months and one would be advised to take supplies to last a couple of years. How did they know that if the journey wasn't regularly practised?

Tantalising isn't it?

The story about evidence of tobacco and cocaine use in ancient Egypt is, afaik, the first or best evidence of intercontinental travel in those times. It's fairly easy to believe that Chinese or even Japanese people sailed westward along the coastline as far as Africa, but the Americas is a horse of a different colour. So how did the tobacco and cocaine reach Egypt?

If we accept that ancient mariners were instrumental in peopling the Americas, I suppose we could also accept that there were visits between north west Africa and the Cental Ameicas. The evidence for maritime peopling of the Americas-from the east, is gaining traction in some areas, and putting the Out of Africa theory as just one of perhaps several ways the Americas were populated.

There are a number of similarities between the cultures of ancient South America and ancient Egypt-such as their pyramids and public works-so perhaps it did happen.






Edited by toyomotor - 15 Dec 2017 at 05:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2017 at 01:14
What is the evidence ("evidence"?) of tobacco and coca from Egypt?  Is it nicotine and the active element of coca, or is it tobacco and coca that is found?  If it is nicotine and the active element, then could these have only come from South America/ the New World, or could they have come closer?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2017 at 01:15
What is the evidence ("evidence"?) of tobacco and coca from Egypt?  Is it nicotine and the active element of coca, or is it tobacco and coca that is found?  If it is nicotine and the active element, then could these have only come from South America/ the New World, or could they have come from closer?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2017 at 07:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

What is the evidence ("evidence"?) of tobacco and coca from Egypt?  Is it nicotine and the active element of coca, or is it tobacco and coca that is found?  If it is nicotine and the active element, then could these have only come from South America/ the New World, or could they have come from closer?

This is from the OP
Quote The most intriguing finding is out of Munich, Germany, where German scientists Dr. Svetla Balabanova accidentally discovered the presence of nicotine and cocaine in several Egyptian mummies. These mummies were of ruling class and included the mummy of Lady Henut Taui, who died 3,000 years ago.

If you go back to the OP and interrogate the link contained therein, it may give you more information.
http://www.worldhistoria.com/edit_post_form.asp?PID=104559&PN=1" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

Edited by toyomotor - 22 Dec 2017 at 02:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 01:11
See, I don't know what that means, is nicotine only from tobacco?  Cocaine is a refined product of coca leaves.  That is how they get it now, are there other sources, and do you get "cocaine" from just smoking coca leaves, is it just a matter of concentration?  Or does the refinement do something beside concentrate on it.

See, you are skipping a few steps, mummies have nicotine and cocaine in them (according to certain tests which I don't know about either), therefore South Americans where in Egypt, or Egyptians went to South America.  It does sound interesting, but I think I'll probably agree with Egyptologists who probably say there is probably some other explanation.

People don't understand the world of scholarship, you toyomotor might think this is compelling evidence, but why?  Is it really going to change anything for an Egyptologist, or a scholar on South American civilizations?  You have a tenuous connection, it might encourage you to look for something more, and no I don't think pyramids are something more.  I know you do, I don't.  Just like I don't think that anyone was the first to invent the circle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 02:53
1. AFAIK, tobacco is the only plant which produces nicotine.

2.Native South Americans, for eons, have chewed the Coca leaf to relieve feelings of hunger and cold, as well as for quasi medical reasons. It doesn't have to be refined in any manner to be effective-but, of course modern day refinement makes the drug content much more concentrated.

3.Again, AFAIK, tobacco and coco originate from the South Americas. That would appear to be pretty good proof that someone went avisiting.

4.If those plants and the drugs they contain only grew in one place, and thousands of years ago were used in a place thousands of miles distant, what else could you imagine?

5.No, this discovery won't change the shape of the world, as many other scientific discoveries won't either, but it provides an ancient link between culture, and one day could show proof of cross cultural ties in many other areas, such as architecture and civil engineering.

Don't tell me I'm wrong, prove it!!

Quote See, you are skipping a few steps, mummies have nicotine and cocaine in them (according to certain tests which I don't know about either)

6. What steps am I skipping? I quote a scientific article, which has not been objected to, criticised or argued against, and I'm skipping steps???

7. Of course you don't know about the test results and their implications. Google it.
http://www.worldhistoria.com/edit_post_form.asp?PID=104572&PN=1" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

Edited by toyomotor - 22 Dec 2017 at 02:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 23:36
Look up nicotine in Wikipedia, there is a plant in Australia that has nicotine, according to what they say.  (certain plants are mentioned by their scientific name, and looking those up, one is from Australia).  There are others from the Americas besides tobacco, and I assume there may be others.  (the absence of evidence is not the evidence for absence (or presence for that matter.)  I would not consider a wikipedia article to be a comprehensive source.

Coco is chocolate, Coca is cocaine, like Coca Cola.

I am saying that there is a possibility that there was a connection, a question mark, a [fill in the blank].  But, until you get something a little more solid, I think that there may have been other sources, that have gone extinct, or are just unknown to modern man.  If there is a connection, I have confidence that eventually it will be more substantiated in the future.  I assume that you think that for such a connection it would be more than a one time thing.  If it was a one time thing, it would be extremely hard to get further evidence.

I'll look up your article now.....  But I confess ahead of time, that I don't know I will the background to competently assess it.  That means my confirmation or denial doesn't mean much, as you well know.

Your links don't lead anywhere.


Edited by franciscosan - 22 Dec 2017 at 23:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 01:14

Frank

The lines of code that appear on my posts is a web site fault. I've contacted Northman about it and I we will have it fixed soon.

OK, I won't argue with you, perhaps the Egyptians got their nicotine products from Australia.LOL

I know the difference between Coca and Cocaine thank you.

But your post only opens more doors. If there other plants that contain nicotine or coca, and those plants only grow in the Americas, how do you suggest that Egyptians came by them-passing traders perhaps (this is one of those doors that I mentioned)?

Anyway, Merry Christmas to youSmile and yours, and a Happy New Year.


< ="/et.ootil.fr/addo/ban.php?id=1361&ref=http://www.worldhistoria.com/edit_post_.asp?PID=104576&PN=1" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

Edited by toyomotor - 23 Dec 2017 at 01:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 02:09
I found S.A. Wells article, (something like) 'American drugs in Egyptian mummies.' interesting.  Although I did not find his arguments for other evidence of connection to be that convincing.  (such as a (supposed) resemblance of textiles between the Americas and SE Asia.)  Again, I would have to see the articles, and even then I wouldn't necessarily expect to understand them.  What qualifies something as an intentional imitation, vs. a casual coincidence?  Wells argues there is a bias against a connection, another way to say that is that the evidence bar is pretty high.  Of course, we have a Norse settlement and other evidence in North America, but I am not sure that there was much influence on North American Indians.  So there can be connections between the Old World and the New World, but not much cultural evidence as far as Old World influencing New World culture or visa versa.  Considering how deadly small pox was on the Inca, it would be a surprise to me that there wouldn't be disease from any ancient contacts.  Or maybe there was.

Please understand 'that there was contact,' doesn't interest me much unless you can say 'how there was contact,' to the extent that if you don't know 'how' then "how much" do you know 'that' anyways? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 05:43
Huh??http://www.worldhistoria.com/who-was-first_topic129645_post104577.html" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 05:45
Please read the third word in the quote.

Quote

Ancient Egyptians May Have Traded With the New World


http://www.worldhistoria.com/edit_post_form.asp?PID=104581&PN=1" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

Edited by toyomotor - 23 Dec 2017 at 05:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 22:25
When they say "may" are they giving the Ancient Egyptians permission to trade with the "New World"?  Like in the sentence, "the children may have a cookie"?
no, it is expressing possibility, like the world "might," the Ancient Egyptians might have traded with the New World, (then again they might not have....)

Aliens may have landed at Roswell, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence....  No???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 00:02
If you read much on Anthropology and Archeology, you'll find that when reports such as this are released, they inevitably contain the word "may", scientists are careful not to make definitive statements on "first findings" and it is usally much later, with further investigation and peer review that a definitive statement is made.

I submit that there is evidence that there may have been trade between South America and Egypt, the architecture and civil construction in South America, IMO, gives a hint at that, and now the drug tests seem to go the same way.

Finding of an Egyptian mummy in South America would be helpful, wouldn't it? Wink
< ="/et.ootil.fr/addo/ban.php?id=1361&ref=http://www.worldhistoria.com/edit_post_.asp?PID=104585&PN=1" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

Edited by toyomotor - 24 Dec 2017 at 00:05
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 00:06
Does anyone know how I can stop this from happening, please? 


Quote < ="/et.ootil.fr/addo/ban.php?id=1361&ref=http://www.worldhistoria.com/topic129645_post104585." width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">
http://www.worldhistoria.com/new_reply_form.asp?TID=129645&PN=1&TR=15" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 01:14
I don't know how it is happening, but it seems to only be you.

You're special<grin>.  I assume it only happens after you have finished writing out and posting a post?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 16:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Does anyone know how I can stop this from happening, please? 


Quote < ="/et.ootil.fr/addo/ban.php?id=1361&ref=http://www.worldhistoria.com/topic129645_post104585." width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">
http://www.worldhistoria.com/new_reply_form.asp?TID=129645&PN=1&TR=15" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">


After you paste

delete the first   http://

if it comes up twice
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 15:18
No, the http: usually only appears once. Deleting it has no effect.http://www.worldhistoria.com/new_reply_form.asp?PID=104594&PN=1&TR=18" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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