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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Whos law?
    Posted: 23 Aug 2009 at 09:49

Something that has been discussed and will continue to be discussed, especially in territories that are disputed between countries or between ethnic groups, is whos law shall apply there. The discussion is also conducted in many places when concerning religion and religious laws.

Thus there are examples such as implementing Sharia laws in parts of countries whos official law is secular or at least not muslim (like in parts of Nigeria), leading to various conflicts.

Another example is Colombia  a couple of decades back where some missionaries had their own court and judged local Native Americans by some kind of Catholic religious laws. One example of that was a woman that were sentenced to ten (10!) years in prison for adultery.

 

An interesting example of law and jurisdiction is the question of Pitcairn Island were some men accused for rape and sex with minors defended themselves with that British law was not applicable on Pitcairn.

 

So whos law shall apply? Maybe there should be international laws, based on the declaration of Human Rights, in territories whos judicial status is somewhat unclear or disputed?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2009 at 21:41
There you go again, Carch, bringing forth a strange analogy so as to pipe aboard some anti-religious harangue. For example, "a couple of decades ago", adultery was a criminal offense under the law in the United States itself! In fact to this day fornication and adultery remain criminal offenses in many states of the Union. Here is a summation:
 
Federal Law Against Adultery   http://laws.findlaw.com/US/327/711.html  sections of the Federal Criminal Code apply to the reservation, including not only the Assimilative Crimes Act, but also those making penal the offenses of rape, 4 assault with intent to [327 U.S. 711, 714] commit rape,5 having carnal knowledge of a girl,6 adultery7 and fornication. 8  years; ... and when such act is committed  between a married man and a woman who is unmarried, the man shall be deemed guilty of adultery.' Criminal Code, 316, 35 Stat. 1149, 18 U.S.C. 516, 18 U.S.C.A. 516.  [Footnote 8] 'If any unmarried man or woman commits fornication, each shall be fined not more than $100, or imprisoned not more than six months.' Criminal Code, 318, 35 Stat. 1149, 18 U.S.C. 518, 18 U.S.C.A. 518.  Adultery: (1887) 24 Stat. 635, in connection with the amendment of bigamy statutes; (1909) 35 Stat. 1149.  
 
Under the US Uniform Code of Military Justice, adultery remains proscribed conduct and cause for penalty and separation: 10 U.S.C. 920, 925, 934 (Supp. 1994).
 
Now as to the purported claims of missionaries sentencing anyone to jail for adultery...please get real. Under Colombian criminal law, adultery remained an offense against public morals until 1991 and presently under Title IX, cap. 2, of the Codigo Penal of Colombia it becomes rather risky legal-wise to subvert the integrity of matrimony. In fact, one of the major reasons the 1890 criminal code was reshaped in 1936 was that it was seldom applied against men and disproportionally fell upon women. However, to stick to the original claim, there were no purported "missionary courts" in Colombia, period.
 
Good luck with any attempt to establish the juridical primacy of any international court in the face of claims of sovereignty by individual states.
 
PS: How about discussing moral turpitude and the courts?Evil Smile


Edited by drgonzaga - 23 Aug 2009 at 21:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2009 at 22:08
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

There you go again, Carch, bringing forth a strange analogy so as to pipe aboard some anti-religious harangue. For example, "a couple of decades ago", adultery was a criminal offense under the law in the United States itself! In fact to this day fornication and adultery remain criminal offenses in many states of the Union. Here is a summation:
 
Federal Law Against Adultery   http://laws.findlaw.com/US/327/711.html  sections of the Federal Criminal Code apply to the reservation, including not only the Assimilative Crimes Act, but also those making penal the offenses of rape, 4 assault with intent to [327 U.S. 711, 714] commit rape,5 having carnal knowledge of a girl,6 adultery7 and fornication. 8  years; ... and when such act is committed  between a married man and a woman who is unmarried, the man shall be deemed guilty of adultery.' Criminal Code, 316, 35 Stat. 1149, 18 U.S.C. 516, 18 U.S.C.A. 516.  [Footnote 8] 'If any unmarried man or woman commits fornication, each shall be fined not more than $100, or imprisoned not more than six months.' Criminal Code, 318, 35 Stat. 1149, 18 U.S.C. 518, 18 U.S.C.A. 518.  Adultery: (1887) 24 Stat. 635, in connection with the amendment of bigamy statutes; (1909) 35 Stat. 1149.  
 
Under the US Uniform Code of Military Justice, adultery remains proscribed conduct and cause for penalty and separation: 10 U.S.C. 920, 925, 934 (Supp. 1994).
 
Now as to the purported claims of missionaries sentencing anyone to jail for adultery...please get real. Under Colombian criminal law, adultery remained an offense against public morals until 1991 and presently under Title IX, cap. 2, of the Codigo Penal of Colombia it becomes rather risky legal-wise to subvert the integrity of matrimony. In fact, one of the major reasons the 1890 criminal code was reshaped in 1936 was that it was seldom applied against men and disproportionally fell upon women. However, to stick to the original claim, there were no purported "missionary courts" in Colombia, period.
 
Good luck with any attempt to establish the juridical primacy of any international court in the face of claims of sovereignty by individual states.
 
PS: How about discussing moral turpitude and the courts?Evil Smile
 
Well, that USA law forbade or even today forbid adultery is nothing to be surprised about since it also until 1967 in some states forbade marriage between black and white people. So American law is not the best example of applied rationality or adherence to thoughts of human rights.
 
The religious court, or missionary court did indeed exist and is whitnessed by, among others, etnographer Lars Persson who even conducted interviews with representants for the mission. These representants claimed that the sentence in question was a good and fair one. So it seems that the Colombian state gave jurisdiction to such kind of court or that it just gave the missionaries cart blanche to do what they wanted with the native peoples in the area (as other cases of outragegous behaviour by the missionaries against the natives also suggests).
 
About international courts: already now international courts can condemn crimes that are not necssarily seen as crimes in certain individual states. It is rather a case of being able to enforce international law and punish individuals that are violating the declaration of human rights.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2009 at 22:43
Not again! When all else fails always cite Lars Persson. Perhaps you misread him or just did not understand that until 1973, the older Concordat with the Holy See (1886) was an integral part of societal legislation in Colombia. However, at no time did the Church operate any criminal courts whatsoever, even in context of the wide latitude it enjoyed over schools, health and other social services provided to Amerind communities. The Concordat of 1973 effectively transferred these latter to the Colombian state, so it will be quite interesting to receive an actual physical citation on good old Lars in this respect.

Edited by drgonzaga - 24 Aug 2009 at 05:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 00:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 06:50
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Not again! When all else fails always cite Lars Persson. Perhaps you misread him or just did not understand that until 1973, the older Concordat with the Holy See (1886) was an integral part of societal legislation in Colombia. However, at no time did the Church operate any criminal courts whatsoever, even in context of the wide latitude it enjoyed over schools, health and other social services provided to Amerind communities. The Concordat of 1973 effectively transferred these latter to the Colombian state, so it will be quite interesting to receive an actual physical citation on good old Lars in this respect.
 
Since I know about Lars Perssons work then it happens that I cite him sometimes. As I said it is possible that the rather corrupt Colombian government handed out rigths to the missionaries to treat the natives after their own will. These things happened and how deep the state itself where involved in these religious courts can maybe be hard to tell, but still they existed and they exercised nearly unlimited power over the native peoples in some areas.
Denial do not change the fact that such things have happened.
 
When Persson asked a representant for the church about these courts he got the answer that these courts are respectable establishments....He [the representant for the church that Persson interviewed] also admits that such courts also exists at missions in Bolivia.
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 24 Aug 2009 at 07:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 06:59
Personally, I think sexual activity of a politician are irrelavant and absolutely none of the public business. I am not an protagonist of adultery but I its irrelevant to politicians office relations within the guidelines of it not being done on "working time".

For what reasons would someone choose to judge a politicians sexual activities. Can anyone give a reason why it is relevant?

In the case of Elliot Spitzer ,yes I understand in engaging in illegal mischief,but personal life casual sexual escapades under the microscope? C'mon!


Edited by AksumVanguard - 24 Aug 2009 at 07:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 07:36
Originally posted by Carch Carch wrote:

Well, that USA law forbade or even today forbid adultery is nothing to be surprised about since it also until 1967 in some states forbade marriage between black and white people. So American law is not the best example of applied rationality or adherence to thoughts of human rights.

Wait, you think adultery is ok?

(I've decided that this isn't off topic, as it is applicable to Who's Law )
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 07:45
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 Since I know about Lars Perssons work then it happens that I cite him sometimes. As I said it is possible that the rather corrupt Colombian government handed out rigths to the missionaries to treat the natives after their own will. These things happened and how deep the state itself where involved in these religious courts can maybe be hard to tell, but still they existed and they exercised nearly unlimited power over the native peoples in some areas.
Denial do not change the fact that such things have happened.
 
When Persson asked a representant for the church about these courts he got the answer that these courts are respectable establishments....He [the representant for the church that Persson interviewed] also admits that such courts also exists at missions in Bolivia.
 
Gee, Lars interviewed the Papal Nuncio at Bogota, who somehow was familiar with events in Bolivia. All I can surmise is that Lars's command of Spanish must have been quite poor. Yes, there are ecclesiastical courts even today and throughout the world and they have a name in legal lingo, Courts Christian, however nowhere do they have civil or criminal jurisdiction, and with respect to the Catholic Church they consist of three tribunals: Sacred Apostolic Penitentiary, Apostolic Signatura, and Sacred Roman Rota.
 
One question: where are the jails housing these supposed criminals adjudicated by "missionaries"?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 07:57
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Wait, you think adultery is ok?

(I've decided that this isn't off topic, as it is applicable to Who's Law )
 
Maybe not okey for the involved but it is nothing that lawmakers or the state shall interfere in. Everyone must have the right to choose their partner self. And in many places in our world adultery is rather understandable thinking of women having been forced into marriages with partners they themselves has not choosed nor do like.
 
So to condemn people to prison, corporal punishment or even to death for adultery is surely an act of irrationality with religous overtones.
 
If someone is unfaithful the most apropriate measure is just to divoce that person. But of course, in some places with religiously inspired laws that is not allowed either.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 08:18
Oh, how low has virtue fallen when none dare speak for gravitas and dignitas and advocate what can only be described as amoral bestialityShocked. If a man or woman can be dishonest with their most intimate, who could risk any degree of trust upon them? What an inversion of the fundamental principles supporting the concept of Human Rights! The hypocrite will always rationalize, and therein lies the greatest threat to true social harmony.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 08:26
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Gee, Lars interviewed the Papal Nuncio at Bogota, who somehow was familiar with events in Bolivia. All I can surmise is that Lars's command of Spanish must have been quite poor. Yes, there are ecclesiastical courts even today and throughout the world and they have a name in legal lingo, Courts Christian, however nowhere do they have civil or criminal jurisdiction, and with respect to the Catholic Church they consist of three tribunals: Sacred Apostolic Penitentiary, Apostolic Signatura, and Sacred Roman Rota.
 
One question: where are the jails housing these supposed criminals adjudicated by "missionaries"?
 
 
Actually he interviewed several representants for the Church, some of them from Colombia, but also representants from places outside Colombia.
Not only did the missionaries imprison people, they also forced or coerced the natives to work at the missions and they fed the natives children with meaningless propaganda instead of helping them with some real education.
 
The missions in Colombia has been criticized not only by Lars Persson but also by researchers as Roberto Jaulin, Victor Daniel Bonilla and Alicia and Gerardo Reichel Dolmatoff
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 08:41

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Oh, how low has virtue fallen when none dare speak for gravitas and dignitas and advocate what can only be described as amoral bestiality . If a man or woman can be dishonest with their most intimate, who could risk any degree of trust upon them? What an inversion of the fundamental principles supporting the concept of Human Rights! The hypocrite will always rationalize, and therein lies the greatest threat to true social harmony.

 

Aha, I see that drgonzaga is also an adherent to primitive religious dogma. Maybe he thinks we shall stone the people who commit adultery?

I never said that adultery was a good thing, but the solution to it is divorce, not imprisonment, or worse that is practiced where religious irrationality has to much influence over the legislation.

 

Even Jesus Christ himself saved a woman from a lynchmob that practised an irrational and brutal kind of justice that sadly enough is not to unusual even in todays world.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 09:05
Hmm, M. Roberto Jaulin, the author of Du pluralisme d'ethnies aesiennes? Are we now to receive a lecture on the virtues of "cultural pluralism"? As for Victor Daniel Bonilla, I can only surmise you are making an obtuse reference to Servants of God or Master of Men: the Story of a Capuchin Mission in Amazonia, a rather dated book from the late 60s (not translated into English until 1972), which has nothing to do with Colombia or Church criminal courts. As for Reichel-Dolmatoff, he began his own war with the Church back in the early 50s because it interfered with his access to "specimens". Yes, he was an anthropologist; however, his original work was from the 50s and early 60s, later recycled into English. Yet, the throwing of names as substantives for a rather specific request is hardly satisfactory even in the context of titles such as the last mentioned individual's work on the Kogi or his own fascination with Amerindian stupefactants in the 60s.
 
Personally, you've brought a chuckle to my throat when you mentioned names bringing back old memories on the peculiarities of anthropologists from the middle of the last century and their own quirks and battles.


Edited by drgonzaga - 24 Aug 2009 at 09:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 09:21
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Aha, I see that drgonzaga is also an adherent to primitive religious dogma. Maybe he thinks we shall stone the people who commit adultery?

I never said that adultery was a good thing, but the solution to it is divorce, not imprisonment, or worse that is practiced where religious irrationality has to much influence over the legislation.

 

Even Jesus Christ himself saved a woman from a lynchmob that practised an irrational and brutal kind of justice that sadly enough is not to unusual even in todays world.

 
Gee, Roman civic virtues are to be considered primitive religious dogma? Give it up, Carch, it is you who is always going on-and-on and-on about "religion" and the "religious". I need not mention religion at all when discussing both personal and civic virtues and the absence of character among those who choose to dismiss them. Perhaps there is a need for a little more Honestas and Industria, not to mention Pietas and Severitas, when you draft replies. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 09:31
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Personally, you've brought a chuckle to my throat when you mentioned names bringing back old memories on the peculiarities of anthropologists from the middle of the last century and their own quirks and battles.
 
Maybe these people were not always objective, still they worked among native americans and they also personally came in contact with missionaries and  other agents of exploitation. Lars Persson, Helge Kleivan, Stefano Varese and others were also those who founded the organisation IWGIA who document different kinds of abuse against native peoples all over the world (with some emphasis on Latin America) and also tries to find solutions that can save the native peoples from cultural and physical extinction.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 09:34
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Gee, Roman civic virtues are to be considered primitive religious dogma? Give it up, Carch, it is you who is always going on-and-on and-on about "religion" and the "religious". I need not mention religion at all when discussing both personal and civic virtues and the absence of character among those who choose to dismiss them. Perhaps there is a need for a little more Honestas and Industria, not to mention Pietas and Severitas, when you draft replies. 
 
 
Well, we do not live in the Greco Roman world anymore and hopefully we will also one day get rid of most of the religious impact on laws, society and legislation.


Edited by Carcharodon - 24 Aug 2009 at 09:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 09:44
Laws will always take cognizance of individual behavior when it disturbs the social order...absent such only anarchy prevails.
 
As for anthropologists and their own biases, are we back to the Xingu nonsense? Anthropologists themselves are clearly agents of exploitation with their own type of advocacy on behalf of (gasp) primitivism.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 09:56
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Laws will always take cognizance of individual behavior when it disturbs the social order...absent such only anarchy prevails.
 
Laws change with societies. We must have laws adapted to human needs, not laws based on obsolete conceptions from ancient times.
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  As for anthropologists and their own biases, are we back to the Xingu nonsense? Anthropologists themselves are clearly agents of exploitation with their own type of advocacy on behalf of (gasp) primitivism.
 
Well, the exploitation conducted by anthropologists is dwarfed by the exploitation by religious mission, capitalist enterprises and states acting as colonial powers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 16:12
Carch,

When I was younger, my view of missionaries in the South Pacific and Asia was tempered by Michener's depiction of them in "Hawaii". Well meaning bible thumpers who, for all their good intentions, ruined the lives of the peoples they lived among. Over the years, however, I kept running into niggling little facts that made me change my views. It would be hard to rationally argue that, on the whole, missionaries have done more damage than good. Without the Jesuits, it would have been a century or so before anyone in the West learned Chinese. Without several Franciscans and a Jesuit, the majority of Vietnamese today would be illiterate, as was the case a century ago when they still used a Chinese based writing system. Without two Jesuit priests, today's Paraguayans might be unilingual in Portuguese or Spanish only, instead of bilingual in Guarani and Spanish. Without educated missionaries, you would have never heard of the Popul Vuh, or had any clear idea of what life was like in the 1491 Americas.

As for the Protestants, all of whom I imagined to be mere three week crash course "doctors of divinity", let me merely cite Korea. U.S. misisonaries arrived in Korea in the 1880s and 90s. Denominations included Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, and Seventh Day Adventists, among other. To my great surprise, I discovered that these were not some posturing "doctors of divinity", though many had that degree as well (but from America's premier universities), but had arrived in Korea with degrees in such areas as medicine, science, and the arts. The names included Underwood, Clarke, Linton, Bird, and others. When they arrived in Korea, life expectancy was in the late 30s to early 40s. And like China, the great majority of people were illiterate, though Korea had developed, but never officially adopted, its own alphabet several centuries earlier. These missionaries opened Korea's first universities, first medical training schools, and first modern hospitals. The impact they had upon Korean society was enormous. More importantly to westerners, these were the men and women who learned the Korean language, and opened it to the West. At first, Korean traditionalists resented their intrusion, and in 1894 many missionaries came under attack from "Dong Hak" (Eastern Learning) bands who were in revolt against the Choseon Dynasty. By 1919, however, the Donghaks (or Tonghaks, same word, different romanization) were working in cohesion with Korean Christians in advocating for Korean Independence from Japan. Their value today can still be seen in North Korea. Where no one else is allowed to enter, the Eugene Bell foundation is one of the very few western NGOs allowed to enter in order to carry out medical work in North Korea's pre-industrial age tuberculosis clinics. (the name is "Bell", as in Ruth Bell, the wife of the late Evangelist Dr. Billy Graham. Her parents were Protestant missionaries in Manchuria, and she attended High School in Pyongyang.)

Anyway, all these niggling little facts I have accumulated over my lifetime have changed my views of missionaries. Yes, there are some real idiots out there. Real religious bigots. But there are a great many are doing humanity a good service. Their contributions will be remembered and appreciated long after the arguments of the anti-religious bigots have faded away.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 18:17

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Anyway, all these niggling little facts I have accumulated over my lifetime have changed my views of missionaries. Yes, there are some real idiots out there. Real religious bigots. But there are a great many are doing humanity a good service. Their contributions will be remembered and appreciated long after the arguments of the anti-religious bigots have faded away.

 

Everything can be relative, and the impact of missions can of course vary between places and times. Unfortunately one can find similar or more negative influences by missionaires in other parts of the world.

 

In the Pacific one can see the drastic drops in population caused by the so called the civilizing work of missionaries that divides local societies and destroys their physical and mental resistance. Diseases, alcoholism, criminality (and even an increased rate of suicide caused by rootlessness) was very visible on many Pacific islands, for example in the Marquesas islands where one could notice a pronounced drop in population numbers because the work of missionaries together with other representants for the western society.

 

Diffferent missions in Latin America and their very pronounced impacts on peoples life and health I have already given examples of, so also the chain of missions in California and their genocidal effect on the California natives.

 

Portugese colonialism, inquisition and opression in Goa in India is also an example of strongly negative impact from Christian missionaries. One of the pioneers of Goa mission was the Jesuit Francis Xavier who the Catholic church has made into a saint, inspite the terrible opression he and his kind initiated, in the same way as Junipero Serra, the opressor of the California natives is beatified.

 

In China Christian missionaries sometimes also were spies, giving away strategic information to the western imperial powers that bit by bit tried to tear apart the country.

 

And for all those peoples that actually got totally wiped out, culturally and physically by western colonialism and imperialism, where the missionaries took (consciously or sometimes without true grasp of what they really were doing) an active part, for them them the positive examples one can find does not help a bit, they are and remain gone. Who will write their obituaries or elevate them to divine status?

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 20:21
One does find it difficult to conclude that the insistent assertions posted above are the product of a magnificently glib unawareness rather than the product of a perverse bias. Post-Modernist relativity is hardly a foundation for historical analysis and the posting of aberrant generalizations replete with the chosen vocabulary of the obnoxious should give anyone pause. However, it is near impossible to contradict assertions whose origins and context are not clearly marked out with any type of specificity. But the assignation of social ills to missionary activities themselves, either in a historical or contemporary setting, is sheer legerdemain.
 
Where the "missionaries" in this report of conditions in Guyana back in 1994?
 
NATIONAL REPORT ON INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AND DEVELOPMENT
 
 
Should we go into the "crimes" commited by anthropologists as they muck about the jungles?


Edited by drgonzaga - 24 Aug 2009 at 22:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 22:08

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Post-Modernist relativity is hardly a foundation for historical analysis and the posting of aberrant generalizations replete with the chosen vocabulary of the obnoxious should give anyone pause. However, it is near impossible to contradict assertions whose origins and context are not clearly marked out with any type of specificity. But the assignation of social ills to missionary activities themselves, either in a historical or contemporary setting, is sheer legerdemain.

 

I do not ascribe all social ills to missionaries, they are just a part of the problem, a part of an opressive and colonial system that constitutes a serious threat to the survival of several indigenous peoples. A system that in many cases proved to be a catastrope for the victims affected by it.

 

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Shoild we go into the "crimes" commited by anthropologists as they muck about the jungles?

 

As I already stated, the mistakes of some anthropologists dwarfes in comparison with the colonial onslaught that the missionaries have participated in for centuries.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 22:25
Rhetorical labels are hardly conducive to "problem" solving, Carch, and "opressive and colonial system" is little more than colored jargon. Given all that, it is easy to surmise that you did not read that report I linked.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 22:36
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Rhetorical labels are hardly conducive to "problem" solving, Carch, and "opressive and colonial system" is little more than colored jargon. Given all that, it is easy to surmise that you did not read that report I linked.
 
Actually I read that report, it is interesting even if it does not directly dwelve on the topic of the impact of missionaries or religious laws and courts.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 23:00
Then have an Eureka moment, will you. No missionaries, no "religious laws and courts" (your phantom not mine) and still the identical social and economic problems, with an interesting substrata that indicates that the "indigenous" populations are showing their preferences through their feet and moving on into actual integration wherever possible.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 23:33
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Then have an Eureka moment, will you. No missionaries, no "religious laws and courts" (your phantom not mine) and still the identical social and economic problems, with an interesting substrata that indicates that the "indigenous" populations are showing their preferences through their feet and moving on into actual integration wherever possible.
 
 
Do not simplify things to much. where indigenenous peoples move and which preferences they have varies a lot. Guyana is a rather small country where the conflicts and antagonisms are not as strong as in some other Latin American countries. We see the same problems, but in somewhat smaller scale and with a somewhat smoother appearence. 
Many times the surrounding society, by its enchroaching on indigenous lands, gives the natives not much other choice than to move away from lands that are degrading because of destruction in the hands of the mainstream society. Assimilation sometimes becomes the only possible way out when the surrounding society has taken the options away.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 00:54
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Wait, you think adultery is ok?

(I've decided that this isn't off topic, as it is applicable to Who's Law )
 
Maybe not okey for the involved but it is nothing that lawmakers or the state shall interfere in. Everyone must have the right to choose their partner self. And in many places in our world adultery is rather understandable thinking of women having been forced into marriages with partners they themselves has not choosed nor do like.
 
So to condemn people to prison, corporal punishment or even to death for adultery is surely an act of irrationality with religous overtones.
 
If someone is unfaithful the most apropriate measure is just to divoce that person. But of course, in some places with religiously inspired laws that is not allowed either.
At the core of the thread here is who's law should apply in a situation. In practice and in my opinion inevitably the law is the law of that society. It is always trial by peers. When unpopular laws are enforced or popular laws not enforced governments are seen as dictatorial or weak respectively. Any govt that drifts too far one way will eventually be overthrown or be forced to amend its way. The speed of that correction would be faster in a democracy, but present in all systems.
 
For adultery, I really have no objection to harsh punishments for it when people have entered into a marriage contract knowing that is the penalty for violating the contract before termination (death or divorce). Adultery wreaks havoc on a family, and leaves parties very emotionally upset. The Law is not only to punish the offender but also to satisfy the victim. I think the cost of adultery, and sexual immorality in general is completely unacknowledged in many societies, but, I can't expect to change that because ultimately their law will apply, just as you can't change that in societies that do recognise that cost, for the reasons given in the first paragraph.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 09:58
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

At the core of the thread here is who's law should apply in a situation. In practice and in my opinion inevitably the law is the law of that society. It is always trial by peers. When unpopular laws are enforced or popular laws not enforced governments are seen as dictatorial or weak respectively. Any govt that drifts too far one way will eventually be overthrown or be forced to amend its way. The speed of that correction would be faster in a democracy, but present in all systems.
 
For adultery, I really have no objection to harsh punishments for it when people have entered into a marriage contract knowing that is the penalty for violating the contract before termination (death or divorce). Adultery wreaks havoc on a family, and leaves parties very emotionally upset. The Law is not only to punish the offender but also to satisfy the victim. I think the cost of adultery, and sexual immorality in general is completely unacknowledged in many societies, but, I can't expect to change that because ultimately their law will apply, just as you can't change that in societies that do recognise that cost, for the reasons given in the first paragraph.
 
To get some just and logical law democracy and a well educated people is a condition. In most dictatures one can not talk about any real justice. And if a government is hesitant about what kind of laws it shall implement then it can take a peak on the UN declaration of human rights. There one can find oultlines that can be a guide in creating just laws.
 
About adultery, that is a private matter between two partners. Divorce is the right solution to that. Society shall not barge in and choose peoples partners or whom one shall be toghether with. If a marriage do not work then one shall have the full freedom to take another partner. But the most honest is of course not to cheat but to break up with ones current partner before taking a new one.
The sexual life is in the sphere of a persons personal, private, life and religious bigotery or outdated conceptions of morality should not be allowed to stand in the way for people to choose who they want to live with or have a relation with.
What one should punish are forced marriages (some times even when the parts are children), forced sex (rape) inside, or outside the institution of marriage and all restrictions that many laws put on women that hamper their personal and sexual freedom.
 
Laws that restrict womens freedoms are also a violation of the declaration of human rights.
 
One must really try to work for a future when the declaration of human rights and international law is the guidline to individual countries legislation and not age old moralism or religious prejudice.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 11:38
Originally posted by Carch Carch wrote:

To get some just and logical law democracy and a well educated people is a condition. In most dictatures one can not talk about any real justice.

That's not true at all. Just and logical law came well before democracy chronologically and is independent of governance system. In fact in order to have democracy you almost need to start with just law, otherwise you get a corrupt mess.
Quote And if a government is hesitant about what kind of laws it shall implement then it can take a peak on the UN declaration of human rights. There one can find oultlines that can be a guide in creating just laws.

So you are arguing that the UN's law (what little most people can agree upon in principle) should override a societies law? When you say Who's Law? you actually want your law to dominate over others?
Quote About adultery, that is a private matter between two partners.

No its not. It affects all the family and close friends.
Quote Divorce is the right solution to that. Society shall not barge in and choose peoples partners or whom one shall be toghether with.

Divorce is the right solution to the second sentence. As soon as you have divorce society is not forcing people to stick with their first choice. If a person is unhappy with their first choice and wishes to make a second, then they should divorce the first before having relations with the second. If they have agreed to 'forstake all others' for the term of a marriage contract that can end in divorce, why shouldn't they be punished for breaching it?
Quote One must really try to work for a future when the declaration of human rights and international law is the guidline to individual countries legislation and not age old moralism or religious prejudice.

I'd rather work for both, but if forced to choose, I'll choose the latter every time. The former is just current fashion.
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