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Topic ClosedWhos law?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 12:12

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


That's not true at all. Just and logical law came well before democracy chronologically and is independent of governance system. In fact in order to have democracy you almost need to start with just law, otherwise you get a corrupt mess.

 

Most laws in dictatures are not especially logic, they often aim to uphold the hegemony of the leading elite and to keep the people in order. But I do not deny that even a dictatorship needs laws, but they are not always especially just.

 

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

 So you are arguing that the UN's law (what little most people can agree upon in principle) should override a societies law? When you say Who's Law? you actually want your law to dominate over others?

 

I hope on a future where UN laws can serve as guidlines in making of the laws in individual countries. Today we have a system where the same act in one country is not a crime at all, while it in another country is punishable with death.

 

And the UN laws, that most countries agreed upon but few really follows is not my invention. It is not only my laws, it is (or could be) everyones.


Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

No its not. It affects all the family and close friends.

 

But still it is up to the involved parties to resolve by themselves. The state cannot be a dictator over peoples lovelife.


Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Divorce is the right solution to the second sentence. As soon as you have divorce society is not forcing people to stick with their first choice. If a person is unhappy with their first choice and wishes to make a second, then they should divorce the first before having relations with the second. If they have agreed to 'forstake all others' for the term of a marriage contract that can end in divorce, why shouldn't they be punished for breaching it?

 

You cannot punish people for choosing their own partners even if they happen to be still married to another. To impose such things is dictatorship.


Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

I'd rather work for both, but if forced to choose, I'll choose the latter every time. The former is just current fashion.

 

The latter is our current state of affairs when women are getting stoned to death in some countries for adultery or for sex outside marriage.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 13:52
It is obvious that some have a difficulty grasping the distinction between Law and Justice! It is not too difficult to grasp that even dictatorships must appear to do justice, given that absent that association no dictatorship survives for long. What is even funnier is the perception that democracies are incapable of commiting injustice or actually authorizing laws that at their base are premised upon a criminal or immoral act.
 
And finally to one last bit of foolishness: "The state cannot be a dictator over peoples lovelife."
 
Not only the State but Society itself determines the parameters of individual actions at all times and no sophistry derived from the verbiage of anachronistic romanticism [or a judiciary on acid] can alter this reality and if one wishes to be "scientific" the law certainly can say "you can love all you want but keep your peepee in your pants!". A bit of color to liven the morning; however, please keep in mind that there is a difference between the autonomy of the individual and societal demands for responsibility in behavior.


Edited by drgonzaga - 25 Aug 2009 at 13:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 16:29

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

It is obvious that some have a difficulty grasping the distinction between Law and Justice! It is not too difficult to grasp that even dictatorships must appear to do justice, given that absent that association no dictatorship survives for long. What is even funnier is the perception that democracies are incapable of commiting injustice or actually authorizing laws that at their base are premised upon a criminal or immoral act.

 

Of course democracies also can commit injustices or authorizing laws that are immoral, just look at the miscegenation laws in some US states that were abolished first 1967. But hopefully in  democratic societies where people are enlightened and well educated such laws will not come about anymore.

 

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

And finally to one last bit of foolishness: "The state cannot be a dictator over peoples lovelife."

 

Not only the State but Society itself determines the parameters of individual actions at all times and no sophistry derived from the verbiage of anachronistic romanticism [or a judiciary on acid] can alter this reality and if one wishes to be "scientific" the law certainly can say "you can love all you want but keep your peepee in your pants!". A bit of color to liven the morning; however, please keep in mind that there is a difference between the autonomy of the individual and societal demands for responsibility in behavior.

 

Sure there are laws that governs sexual behaviour, lovelife, marriage and similar. But such laws should not become absurd (as they for sure has been in many societies during history) with the state peeping into peoples bedchambers and sometimes handing out preposterous punishments for rather normal sexual behaviour.

The history we can not alter but we can work for a world where a persons lovelife is a part of his/hers private life, a world where people can choose their partner by free will, a world where one can leave a partner if one do not get along anymore without intervention from religious bigots or state officials who act upon laws based on obsolete principles.

 

Here in Sweden we every year see a lot of refugees who have fled from dictatorial societies whit inhuman laws. In their home countries many of these people are regarded as criminals because they have expressed their views in some matter, talked their own language or raised a flag that happened to be forbidden. I have met a teacher who fled from Iran because he wanted to teach about Darwin in school, I have seen women who where threatened with imprisonment because they refused to wear a veil in the streets. Several homosexual men and women have fled here because they wanted to express their own kind of lovelife. In a world where the declaration of Human Rights was a guidance to legislation those people had maybe not been forced to flee from their own homes. Maybe they could have remained in their country living under just and sane laws instead of religious hysteria.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 04:25
You've moved from an idee fixee into what can only be charitably identified as a fixation, Carch. This is a forum for the analysis and exposition of History and historical thematics. Psst, here's a an interesting fact: the vast majority of people migrate for economic betterment, but given the arbitrary nature of certain laws governing the movement of peoples, many will claim a political rationale...so spare us this parody of the Marseillaise and your incessant tendency to leap for the barricades!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 10:44
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You've moved from an idee fixee into what can only be charitably identified as a fixation, Carch. This is a forum for the analysis and exposition of History and historical thematics. Psst, here's a an interesting fact: the vast majority of people migrate for economic betterment, but given the arbitrary nature of certain laws governing the movement of peoples, many will claim a political rationale...so spare us this parody of the Marseillaise and your incessant tendency to leap for the barricades!
 
Sometimes you really express yourself in a manner of obscurity.
 
We discuss laws and the underlying principles of laws and also the concequences of these laws. That is both a historical and contemporary subject. 
Noone denies that there are also people who migrate to obtain economic betterment but still enough many flee to avoid political (and often religious) opression and the impact of totally irrational laws. I have met enough refugees and taken part of enough narratives to clearly see that.
If you use some common sence than you could yourself understand that the religious laws of Iran or of the Talibans (when they still were in power) or other similar systems are irrational and in clear violation of any principles of Human Rights.
But maybe the impact of the refugees from these places are not noticeable in the place where you live so that you do not come in contact with these people.
 
- - - -
 
About refugees: one can as a little curiosum notice that the Swedish town of Sodertalje alone has taken more refugees from Iraq than the whole of US. And still Sweden is not the country that wages war in Iraq.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 16:30
Expand your vocabulary, Carch, and suddenly you will discover clarity rather than obscurity.
 
You are simply arguing causes and attempting to legitimize them with a historical veneer; unfortunately, the quality of the coating is quite shabby. But, I have become acustomed to Internet abuse with regard to "sources" by many on the Forum.
 
Here is what you should have cited and then explained the purpose behind the narrative:
 
 
For the life of me, I can not understand how you can rail against those you call closed minded when at every turn of the argument it is apparent that you are manning the phalanx of the convinced.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 00:53

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Expand your vocabulary, Carch, and suddenly you will discover clarity rather than obscurity.

 

You are simply arguing causes and attempting to legitimize them with a historical veneer; unfortunately, the quality of the coating is quite shabby. But, I have become acustomed to Internet abuse with regard to "sources" by many on the Forum.

 

Well, since you do not always express yourself in a coherent way then it is not easy for other people to always grasp what you mean.

 

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Here is what you should have cited and then explained the purpose behind the narrative:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/09/AR2008040904319.html

 

For the life of me, I can not understand how you can rail against those you call closed minded when at every turn of the argument it is apparent that you are manning the phalanx of the convinced.

 

It seems that the article you link to just reiterates the same things I just said in my earlier post, just with some more words. The article is interesting but do not add anything to this discussion.

 

The main discussion in this thread is about laws in different parts of the world that are irrational, inhuman and arbitrary and has a negative impact on the people that has to follow those laws. I just wonder if not laws should be more in harmony with peoples real needs and with international declarations as the UN declaration of human rights. Today we live in a world where you can get executed in one country for things that are regarded normal human behaviour in another.

Do we really want that in the future too?

 

The little deviation from the topic and into the matter of refugees was just to illustrate that we here in Sweden know more about refugees and the motifs of refugees than people from many other countries who do not meet this problem to the same extent as we do.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 04:09
Carch wrote:
The little deviation from the topic and into the matter of refugees was just to illustrate that we here in Sweden know more about refugees and the motifs of refugees than people from many other countries who do not meet this problem to the same extent as we do.
 
ROTFLMAO! How's that for communicating? Catholic Charities in Houston through its Social Services division has assisted and attended to the problems of more refugees than all of Sweden! The city of Houston itself and for the past 27 years, Rice University, has kept rather good statistics on this transformation:
 
 
So skip all of this posturing on benign and understanding Swedes against an uncaring world. Here is a breakdown of figures for just 2008:
 
 
Not that the Swedish government has not lobbied the issue by complaining over Iraqis. Yet, unlike some, I will not use this complex problem as an excuse to go nation bashing or that a possible alterior motive is an undercurrent pushing the the Swedish protest from the early years of this decade.
 
But back to laws, customs, and societal definitions within the context of national jurisdictions. One can make the most rational and humane defense of China's "one child per family" law; yet, to most such a restriction does grate any and all sense of justice within the parameters of individual decision making--we will not even enter the realm of the ethical and the moral here. To most, infanticide is an abomination, but as I recall you did excuse the practice when speaking of your cherished "peoples of the Xingu". In this sense you are being just as arbitrary and inhumane as your chosen betes noire.


Edited by drgonzaga - 27 Aug 2009 at 04:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 04:13
Carch complained:
Well, since you do not always express yourself in a coherent way then it is not easy for other people to always grasp what you mean.
 
Get a dictionary! I do not complain over your weird syntax and obtuse sentences and near undecipherable spelling...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 04:35
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Carch complained:
Well, since you do not always express yourself in a coherent way then it is not easy for other people to always grasp what you mean.
 
Get a dictionary! I do not complain over your weird syntax and obtuse sentences and near undecipherable spelling...
 
A l dictionary is not always any help in dechipering unclearly formulated thoughts.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 04:41
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Carch wrote:
 
But back to laws, customs, and societal definitions within the context of national jurisdictions. One can make the most rational and humane defense of China's "one child per family" law; yet, to most such a restriction does grate any and all sense of justice within the parameters of individual decision making--we will not even enter the realm of the ethical and the moral here. To most, infanticide is an abomination, but as I recall you did excuse the practice when speaking of your cherished "peoples of the Xingu". In this sense you are being just as arbitrary and inhumane as your chosen betes noire.
 
Well, i do not neccecarily agree with the chinese in all their law making. They too have some laws that are at odds with the declaration of Human rights.
 
And the infaticides among Xingu natives is mostly existent in the propaganda of evangelical missionaries who want to coerce the Brasilian state to allow kidnapping of the natives children..
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 27 Aug 2009 at 04:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 05:05
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

[
And the infaticides among Xingu natives is mostly existent in the propaganda of evangelical missionaries who want to coerce the Brasilian state to allow kidnapping of the natives children..
 
Are you sure infanticides doesn't exist?
 
Actually, infanticide was a widespread and common practise to control population growth in Precolumbian Americas, as much as abortion do the same role today in Sweden Wink
 
Careful with deffending things you aren't sure. This time it may be that the missionaries are rigtht!
 
From this place:
 
 

Girl survived tribe's custom of live baby burial

 

By Jemimah Wright in Brasilia
Published: 12:01AM BST 22 Jun 2007

Hakani, who lived in the forest for three years after being abandoned, aged two, by her tribe. She was finally adopted by Marcia and Edson Suzuki and is now attending an ordinary school
Hakani, who lived in the forest for three years after being abandoned, aged two, by her tribe. She was adopted by Marcia and Edson Suzuki

Babies born into some Indian tribes in the Amazon are being buried alive, a practice that is being covered up by the Brazilian authorities out of respect for tribal culture.

The tradition is based on beliefs that babies with any sort of physical defect have no souls and that others, such as twins or triplets, are also "cursed".

Infanticide has claimed the lives of dozens of babies each year, say campaigners fighting to end the practice.

Babies who are girls, who have some disability or who have unmarried mothers are all in danger of an early death in a shallow grave in the rainforest. Others are suffocated with leaves, poisoned or simply abandoned in the jungle.

According to Dr Marcos Pelegrini, a doctor working in the Yanomami Tribe Health Care District, 98 children were killed by their mothers in 2004 alone.

Campaigners say that the true figure is obscured by officials who often record cases of infanticide as simple malnutrition. At the same time, family anguish over infanticide has led to many adult tribal members committing suicide.

Attempts to change tribal attitudes and counter official indifference are being led by a Brazilian couple, Marcia and Edson Suzuki. They have worked with one tribe, the Suruwaha, for 20 years.

Mr Suzuki, the founder of a campaign group called Atini - Voice for Life - said: "We are fighting against doctors and anthropologists who say we must not interfere with the culture of the people."

Such attitudes are exemplified by Dr Erwin Frank, an anthropology professor at the Federal University of Roraima State in the Amazon.

Speaking of the tribes, he said: "This is their way of life and we should not judge them on the basis of our values. The difference between the cultures should be respected."

Like other tribes, the Suruwahá considers that if a child has any deformity or disability, it does not have a soul and so - as an animal - should be killed.

Some tribes also believe it is a curse to give birth to more than one baby at a time. In the Suruwahá tribe, a pregnant girl will walk into the jungle by herself to give birth.

She then cuts the baby's umbilical cord, buries the placenta and returns to the village with her child.

Sometimes the woman will simply leave the child in the jungle to die if it is a girl or if she is not married.

The Suzukis recounted the harrowing story of one girl, Hakani, who they saved from death and adopted.

Born in 1995, Hakani - which means Smile - was still unable to walk or talk by the age of two, prompting tribal leaders to conclude she had no soul and to order her parents to kill her.

They committed suicide - eating a poison root - rather than obey the order. Hakani's 15-year-old brother was then told he had to kill her. He dug a hole to bury her next to the village hut, which is where the tribe usually buries animals, and hit her over the head with a machete to knock her out.

However, she woke up as she was being placed in the hole and the boy found he could not go through with the killing. Hakani's grandfather then shot her with an arrow. He was so upset he tried to commit suicide, too.

But Hakani survived, although her wound became infected and she was left to live like an animal in the forest for three years.

At the age of five she was very undersized, still unable to walk and abused by other Indians. She survived only because a brother smuggled food to her.

The Suzukis begged Funasa, the Brazilian government's health department, to let them take Hakani out of the tribe to get medical help.

"Funasa could not help because their official view is to respect the culture of the people and let the children die. If we took Hakani out we could be sued," said Mrs Suzuki.

Warned that they could be responsible for the child's death, Funasa eventually relented. Under the Suzukis' care, Hakani was walking and talking within a year. While she suffers from hypothryoidism - an underactivity of the thryroid gland which affects brain development - she is able to attend a mainstream school.

Brazilian politicians are currently debating a Bill to outlaw infanticide. It is known as Muwaji's Law, named after a Suruwahá woman who refused to bury alive her own baby.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 12:16

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

Are you sure infanticides doesn't exist?

 

Actually, infanticide was a widespread and common practise to control population growth in Precolumbian Americas, as much as abortion do the same role today in Sweden

 

Careful with deffending things you aren't sure. This time it may be that the missionaries are rigtht!

 

From this place:

  

 

Infanticide has been known from nearly all cultures in the world during certain periods of history. It is not unique for Precolumbian Americas.

 

And the eventual infanticide of todays natives in Brasil are greatly exaggerated by missionaries and others who spreads a lot of wild stories for the tabloids to print.

 

And talking about infanticide, some years ago Brazil became world famous after the exposure of death squads with connections to police and armed forces that were attacking, and killing, a lot of street children in the city slums. Those attacks dwarfed everything, in scope and brutality, the Amazonian tribes eventually done in form of infanticides.

 

Mostly the question of infanticide is blown up by the evangelical missionaries, and others, in order to coerce Brazils governement to give these people a carte blanche to kidnap native children and indoctrinate them into Christianity and into the mainstream culture (a mainstream culture which lets children perish in the slums in an environment full of drugs, criminality, murder, prositution, diseases, dirt and extreme poverty. A slum-culture that some people seem very eager to integrate the Native American peoples into).

 

Something about the missionary propaganda and the discussions about infanticide:
 
 



Edited by Carcharodon - 27 Aug 2009 at 12:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:32
 
So, what's your point? Again, just speaking without a point? Confused
 
 
Lier!! Sorry to say that but your strategy is known. as always you are distorting the reality to fit your agenda
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

And talking about infanticide, some years ago Brazil became world famous after the exposure of death squads with connections to police and armed forces that were attacking, and killing, a lot of street children in the city slums. Those attacks dwarfed everything, in scope and brutality, the Amazonian tribes eventually done in form of infanticides.

 
 And now that you are left without arguments you apply the soviet strategy to change the point!
Infanticide is a crime, and it must be stopped among Native Amazonians. The killings in the slums are another crime and it is not related. That's a strawmen, as usual.
Infanticide is already erradicated from all other natives of the Americas, and that happened in great part thanks to the Christianizing of natives!
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 27 Aug 2009 at 13:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 20:06

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

Lier!! Sorry to say that but your strategy is known. as always you are distorting the reality to fit your agenda

 

Interesting that you talk about lies in this connection. If someone has been subjected to lies by the western colonialists during the centuries it is the aboriginal peoples. When the colonialists wanted to take their lands, use tham as slaves, missionize them or assimilate them a whole battery of lies have been used. Aboriginal peoples over the whole world (including Native Americans) has been accused of infanticide, cannibalism, human sacrifice, murder, exessive wars and a lot of other thigs.

Sure, also aboriginal peoples have waged wars or indulged themselves in violent behaviour, but still those behaviours are dwarfed by the violent treatment they have experienced in the hands of the so called civilized powers that have exterminated them, enslaved them, exposed them to genocide and ethnocide and have robbed them of everything they owned, and on top of that tried to destroy their reputation by fabricizing  lots and lots of lies about them.

 

And it really seems that you have bought some of those ideas and that you are always willing to listen to such lies. It seems that all your rhetoric about being interested in Native American culture is just a facade. In your post you really show contempt against native culture, you are opposed to their keeping their own lands and cultures.

You also have shown contempt for black peoples trying to diminish the things they experienced in form of slavery and other sufferings.

  

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 And now that you are left without arguments you apply the soviet strategy to change the point!

Infanticide is a crime, and it must be stopped among Native Amazonians. The killings in the slums are another crime and it is not related. That's a strawmen, as usual.

Infanticide is already erradicated from all other natives of the Americas, and that happened in great part thanks to the Christianizing of natives!

 

The lies that you are parroting do not become more true because you repeating them all the time.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 20:25

I won't offend you because I don't want to be banned because of you.

I just realize you aren't able to read. You didn't read the news of the Telegraph above!

You just forgot about the  Muwaji's Law.

All you want to do is to continue your endless anti-western preaching, repeating ethnocide and genocide as much as you could. If you are so ashamed to be Western, just commit suicide and leave the rest of us alone, please!!!
 
Otherwise, pick a bag and a conoe and paddle to some paradisiatic island... if you find one.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 20:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I won't offend you because I don't want to be banned because of you.

I just realize you aren't able to read. You didn't read the news of the Telegraph above!

You just forgot about the  Muwaji's Law.

All you want to do is to continue your endless anti-western preaching, repeating ethnocide and genocide as much as you could. If you are so ashamed to be Western, just commit suicide and leave the rest of us alone, please!!!
 
Otherwise, pick a bag and a conoe and paddle to some paradisiatic island... if you find one.
 
 
 
The press has for decades and centuries been full of scandalous histories and distorions about alleged bestialic behaviour of different native peoples. It has always been a part of the colonialist propaganda to lie about the natives just to justify continued opression against them. And you in your foolishness just keep on repeating such propaganda.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 20:39
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
The press has for decades and centuries been full of scandalous histories and distorions about alleged bestialic behaviour of different native peoples. It has always been a part of the colonialist propaganda to lie about the natives just to justify continued opression against them. And you in your foolishness just keep on repeating such propaganda.
 
So you deny children with defects and the second twin are still killed as a routine by some natives groups in the Amazon?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 20:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

So you deny children with defects and the second twin are still killed as a routine by some natives groups in the Amazon?
  
 
Well, I for sure will not just buy the mission propagandists stories about it like it was the truth of God himself.


Edited by Carcharodon - 27 Aug 2009 at 21:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 20:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 21:11
Hakani org is known for its anti indian propaganda. They are known to put out fake films where they accuse natives of infanticide.
It seems that you cannot see that propaganda like theirs is a part of an agenda to vilify aboriginal peoples in order to win the publics and authorities support for the destruction of their cultural independance. Even if some people feel some real concern in these issues they are easily used as propaganda tools against the aboriginal peoples and their societies.
 
And I see that they even claim a high rate of infanticide among the peoples in the Xingu Indigenous Park, amidst journalists, anthropologists and representants for different NGOs. In a setting with 40 schools with 1500 pupils in those schools. One can really doubt such kind of claims.
 
 
Maybe this people should worry about the slums of Brazil where over 5000 children and youth are killed every year.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 02:30
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Hakani org is known for its anti indian propaganda..... 
 
Don't be silly. You act as a dogmatic blind preacher. If something doesn't fit your romantic ideal is propaganda. I wonder if you ever were in the Communist Party or in the Opus Dei, or something like that. ConfusedConfused
 
To ban infanticide is not to be anti-indian, just human. You can see in the reports that indians themselves are changing... after seens those reports you accuse falsely to be false Angry
 
Criminals are those that protect infanticide in the name of ecology and preservationist movements, that like to see humans to behave like animals!!
 
Infantice should be ban as soon as possible because is a crime under the U.N. laws! Even Indians have to addapt to it, damn!
 
What matter is the Muwaji's Law.!!!
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 28 Aug 2009 at 02:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 07:37

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

 Don't be silly. You act as a dogmatic blind preacher. If something doesn't fit your romantic ideal is propaganda. I wonder if you ever were in the Communist Party or in the Opus Dei, or something like that. 

 

So you have been in the Amazon, whitnessing these alleged infanticides? Have you been in contact with the Amazon peoples or with organisations that work with them? Have you interviewed people about this? Can you mention the names of the parents that is supposed to have killed their babies? You are just parroting the lies of missionaries and other groups who with their propaganda want to force assimilation upon the natives.

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

To ban infanticide is not to be anti-indian, just human. You can see in the reports that indians themselves are changing... after seens those reports you accuse falsely to be false  

 

I thought murder and infanticide were already forbidden in Brazil, but if it was not it maybe explains why people from the police and military forces can go around and slaughter street children year in and year out without the state taking some real action (ok, a couple of these murderers went to jail, but it seems that it was only a drop in the ocean).

This is happening all the time, in the slum cities that you are so eager to send the natives to in the name of integration.

 
It is really irresponsible to spread a lot of exaggerated talk about supposed infanticide and similar among Native Americans while at the same time deny the opression and displacement they are being subjected to. Those who spread such propaganda are contributing to the justification of the assimilation, stealing of lands, plundering of resources and loss of independance that the amerind suffer in the hands of the mainstream societiy and its colonial attitudes.

 



Edited by Carcharodon - 28 Aug 2009 at 08:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 12:50
About arbitrary and irrational laws: today a court in Bangkok, thailand, sentenced a member of the opposition to 18 years in prison for insulting the king. This is really an obsolete kind of law that really should not belong in our so called rational and modern world.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 14:17
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

So you have been in the Amazon, whitnessing these alleged infanticides? Have you been in contact with the Amazon peoples or with organisations that work with them? Have you interviewed people about this? Can you mention the names of the parents that is supposed to have killed their babies? You are just parroting the lies of missionaries and other groups who with their propaganda want to force assimilation upon the natives.

 
Fanatic and blind. That's what you are.

 

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

I thought murder and infanticide were already forbidden in Brazil, but if it was not it maybe explains why people from the police and military forces can go around and slaughter street children year in and year out without the state taking some real action (ok, a couple of these murderers went to jail, but it seems that it was only a drop in the ocean).

This is happening all the time, in the slum cities that you are so eager to send the natives to in the name of integration.

 
It is really irresponsible to spread a lot of exaggerated talk about supposed infanticide and similar among Native Americans while at the same time deny the opression and displacement they are being subjected to. Those who spread such propaganda are contributing to the justification of the assimilation, stealing of lands, plundering of resources and loss of independance that the amerind suffer in the hands of the mainstream societiy and its colonial attitudes.
 
Fanatic and blind. And also you confusse topics.
Indians commited infanticide. That's something not even the tribes involved deny.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 14:52
It seems that you love to sing in the choir of anti indian propaganda.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 14:55
Fact, not propaganda. You are so fanatic that you don't see the truth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 15:02
As I said, infanticide has occured, and occurs in different forms, throughout the whole world, to single out the indians and make it as if they are especially prone on doing such things, as the pro missionarie and colonialist press and propaganda does, is deeply irresponsible and just serves to justify continued opression against the Native Americans.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 15:07
We are not talking about "the whole world" here. Don't use the spread-the-guilt tactic.
We are talking about infantices being commited TODAY at the Amazon by members of tribes under the watch of "Survival International Inc.".
Those tribes are still commiting genocide and should be tought to stop doing it. Simple.
There are more than trees, lizards and frogs under the ecosphere; we have an humanitarian problem here if you haven't notice it.
(I hope "Survival Inc." won't loss money from contributors if this news spread, though)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 17:12
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

We are not talking about "the whole world" here. Don't use the spread-the-guilt tactic.
We are talking about infantices being commited TODAY at the Amazon by members of tribes under the watch of "Survival International Inc.".
 
 
You are just blindly and uncritically reiterating a lot of lies, propaganda and exaggerations spread by missionaries and others who can not accept the thought of culturally independent native peoples who are not yet assimilated into the Christian mass culture.
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