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Topic ClosedWhos law?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2009 at 18:18
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

A
Interestingly, I have found that in the course of this exchange, Carcharadon has willfully and blatantly violated Article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948):

Article 12.

  • No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
These asaults are rather clear given that the individual involved is intent on assaulting the integrity of anothers "home" conjoined with inescapable slurrings againt the honour and reputation of others.


It seems that you finally has left the world of reality. It seem that your fantasies has ovetaken you.
Noone arbitrarily interfere in someones privacy or honour or reputation. I just state that religious opression and hideous punishments are contrary to human rights and contrary to humanity and justice.  To come up with such nonsence is disgusting when thinking of all these people (many of them just young children) that are being stoned, flogged and opressed in the name of supernatural beings whos existence noone ever have been able to prove. There are actually people out there, maybe in this moment, who are being severely maltreated or killed just to satisfy others grotesque fantasies about gods and the supposed justice of these gods.
 
 
 

 

 

 

 




Edited by Carcharodon - 13 Oct 2009 at 18:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2009 at 18:43
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
It seems that you finally has left the world of reality. It seem that your fantasies has ovetaken you.
Noone arbitrarily interfere in someones privacy or honour or reputation. I just state that religious opression and hideous punishments are contrary to human rights and contrary to humanity and justice.  To come up with such nonsence is disgusting when thinking of all these people (many of them just young children) that are being stoned, flogged and opressed in the name of supernatural beings whos existence noone ever have been able to prove. There are actually people out there, maybe in this moment, who are being severely maltreated or killed just to satisfy others grotesque fantasies about gods and the supposed justice of these gods.

Are you deliberately trolling? Is it so hard to believe/respect that "supernatural" beings are as real to many people as the human rights to you? If religious laws aren't actually stated by divine beings, that would mean they are stated by men, and as arbitrary as any human rights convention.



Edited by Styrbiorn - 13 Oct 2009 at 19:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2009 at 18:47
That you Carch fail to see that you are challenging the deeply held sense of honour in other societies as well as the reputation of another with regard to belief and practices is not surprising. No one gives a hill of beans over your "religious" fixations [and yes the constant chattering over the beliefs of others is a form of religion known as atheism], but the heavy doses of caricature that you repeat ad nauseam are both tiring and essentially wrong. Not that Sweden is above commiting miscarriages of justice all on its very own. Tend to your own garden and let others weed theirs!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2009 at 19:04
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

That you Carch fail to see that you are challenging the deeply held sense of honour in other societies as well as the reputation of another with regard to belief and practices is not surprising. No one gives a hill of beans over your "religious" fixations [and yes the constant chattering over the beliefs of others is a form of religion known as atheism], but the heavy doses of caricature that you repeat ad nauseam are both tiring and essentially wrong. Not that Sweden is above commiting miscarriages of justice all on its very own. Tend to your own garden and let others weed theirs!


Sweden also has its wrongs, injustices and bad descisions. But we do not flog people or stone them to death for excercising some sexual liberties or wearing clothes we do not like.

If we cannot protest against inhumanity, violence, torture, brutality and opression then this world will never turn into something better, then we will just go on torturing each other, exterminating each other and destroy each other. If noone had protested against slavery, millions more people would today have been sold and bought on the slave markets. If we had not protested against apartheid such a system would still have lived on in South Africa. If noone had protetsed in America against racist opression there would maybe still have been miscegenation laws and lynchings.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2009 at 19:10
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

 

Are you deliberately trolling? Is it so hard to believe/respect that "supernatural" beings are as real to many people as the human rights to you? If religious laws aren't actually stated by divine beings, that would mean they are stated by men, and as arbitrary as any human rights convention.



At least the human rights conventions are a big step into the right direction since it is proposing positive things, they do not crave that people shall be killed or mistreated for a lot of different reasons.

Noone has ever been able to show any proof of a supernatural being, and to establish laws on such grounds, laws that can mean life or death to people, is really among the worst crazyness one can imagine.


Edited by Carcharodon - 13 Oct 2009 at 19:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2009 at 21:27
The above is trolling, Carch, since no one is unduly perturbed over your "right" to hold whatever ideas, belief or disbelief, and any off-the-wall construct you agitate. What is disturbing is your insistent denigration of the beliefs and customs of others. It is called disrespect and no society can function as a society within that framework. You can enjoy a constant parade of naked flesh along the barren beaches of Sweden all you want, but such does not mean that nudity is the world's ideal! Given the current state of human flesh, the thought is quite revolting actually!

Edited by drgonzaga - 14 Oct 2009 at 04:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2009 at 22:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The above is trolling, Carch, since no one is unduly perturbed over your "right" to hold whatever ideas, belief or disbelief, and any off-the-wall construct you agitate. What is disturbing is your insisten denigration of the beliefs and customs of others. It is called disrespect and no society can function as a society within that framework. You can enjoy a constant parade of naked flesh along the barren beaches of Sweden all you want, but such does not mean that nudity is the world's ideal! Given the current state of human flesh, the thought is quite revolting actually!


When shall we cease to respect opression, violence, stoning, flogging and similar expressions just because they take place under the cover of religion? When communists or members of other authoritarian ideologies opress people then not so many screams for respect, then people rightly condemn those actions. But as soon religion is involved then suddenly opression cannot be critizised because that is seen as a sign of disrespect.
Strange thinking.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 04:57
You do not really want to get into Sweden's official stance on the Soviet Union do you Carch?
 
Here's a stroll down memory lane:
 
 
 
So give us a break here...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 09:56
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You do not really want to get into Sweden's official stance on the Soviet Union do you Carch?
 
Here's a stroll down memory lane:
 
 

Although not the most glorious moment of the Government Palme I, that article constains factual errors and is quite skewed. I oughtn't comment it not to give water on Carch's wheels though Confused 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 10:05
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You do not really want to get into Sweden's official stance on the Soviet Union do you Carch?
 
Here's a stroll down memory lane:
 
 
 
So give us a break here...



Well, the Soviet Union ceased to exist many years ago. What I am talking about is what is going on right now.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 10:09
Maybe those of you who defend, deny or at least gloss over the impact of religious laws should see the film The stoning of Soraya M (based on a real case) about stoning in Iran, or maybe the book Seven Stones for Adulterous Women where one can follow a woman preparing herself to be stoned.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 10:57
Carcharodon's opposition to inhuman treatment of the powerless is not trolling, and should not even be controversial.
 
However, linking such inhuman treatment specifically to religious societies is trolling, at least if done repetitively. So for that matter would be linking it to secular or atheistic societies. So I trust it will stop.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 11:00
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Carcharodon's opposition to inhuman treatment of the powerless is not trolling, and should not even be controversial.
 
However, linking such inhuman treatment specifically to religious societies is trolling, at least if done repetitively. So for that matter would be linking it to secular or atheistic societies. So I trust it will stop.


Well, some kind of punishments (like the stoning of women) are in fact performed in the name of religion. But I do not say that all opression in the world is due to religion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 11:13

No, but you have been heavily implying that religion always leads to inhuman treatment. I don't really see any reason to bring religion or the lack of it into the argument at all.

The question is one of political/constitutional organisation: it was "who's law?" not "what laws?"
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 12:33
Well, I do not say religion always lead to inhuman treatment since it obviously does not do so. But in some cases it does, as some political ideologies also can do.

Whos law and what laws are connected. What laws is a result of the ideology of those who create the laws.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 14:59
Doesn't mean the two questions are the same. Even if you determine one group (or individual) should legislate for a community, the answer says nothing about what those laws should be.
 
And if you think religion and inhuman treatment aren't correlated, why bring the subject up?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 15:13
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Doesn't mean the two questions are the same. Even if you determine one group (or individual) should legislate for a community, the answer says nothing about what those laws should be.
 
And if you think religion and inhuman treatment aren't correlated, why bring the subject up?
 


Not all religion is correlated to inhuman treatment but some certainly is. To deny that is to put ones head in the sand.




Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Oct 2009 at 15:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 16:11
Given that the human species is given to perform acts beyond the imagination of the rational, despite the articulation of laws and other social constructs, just how does one define "inhuman" treatment? Philosophical ideals should never be guised as political agiprop.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 20:19
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Given that the human species is given to perform acts beyond the imagination of the rational, despite the articulation of laws and other social constructs, just how does one define "inhuman" treatment? Philosophical ideals should never be guised as political agiprop.


If one consider all acts a human can do as human, then there exists of course no inhumanity. But in daily speech inhuman means things that are cruel, outrageous or sinister. If one take the stoning of a13 year old girl one would in daily language call it inhuman.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2009 at 11:28
You're being repetitive again. Try finding some examples of inhuman behaviour (I don't think there's really any confusion over what the word means) that are not connected with religious motives.
 
Otherwise I may have to close this down.
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Not all religion is correlated to inhuman treatment but some certainly is. To deny that is to put ones head in the sand.
You don't appear to understand the word 'correlate'.
 
Religion would be correlated with inhuman treatment if inhuman treatment was either more likely or less likely to occur as a result of religious belief. You have been heavily implying that it was more likely. That's what you need to stop doing.


Edited by gcle2003 - 15 Oct 2009 at 11:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2009 at 12:12
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You're being repetitive again. Try finding some examples of inhuman behaviour (I don't think there's really any confusion over what the word means) that are not connected with religious motives.
 
Otherwise I may have to close this down.
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Not all religion is correlated to inhuman treatment but some certainly is. To deny that is to put ones head in the sand.
You don't appear to understand the word 'correlate'.
 
Religion would be correlated with inhuman treatment if inhuman treatment was either more likely or less likely to occur as a result of religious belief. You have been heavily implying that it was more likely. That's what you need to stop doing.


History has shown us that religion and inhuman behaviour are correlated and to deny that is to be untrue to history. The concept of subjecting oneself and, above all, to subject others to the will of non existent supernatural forces is in itself irrational and anti democratic and will in the long run lead to different kinds of opression and subjugation of others rights and liberties.

So now you can close the thread if you like. The truth will not be less true just because you close a thread.



Edited by Carcharodon - 15 Oct 2009 at 12:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2009 at 14:03
Well, you've aid your piece. But preaching isn't allowed.
 
Thread closed. Pity, it had been promising.
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