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Women and Pythagoreanism

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    Posted: 13 Jan 2016 at 02:17
Pythagoras lived from about 574-c. 480 BC, moving from Samos in Asia Minor to Croton in Southern Italy in 534, and then in 510 to Metapontum, where he died.  Pythagoreanism lasted until c. 360, and in different manifestations throughout antiquity and has been revived to some extent in modernity.  

The Pythagoreans pointed out that the stages in a woman's life were named after goddesses.  When a woman was young, she was Kore, or maiden.  Next she was Nymphe or bride.  Then she became Meter or Mother, then some lists include Maia or Grandmother.  Kore, Nymphe, [De]meter, and Gaia are all names of goddesses.

Women and Men in Pythagoreanism were considered equal, although they have different virtues, man's virtue was bravery (something needed when you are a member of a small city-state, and everybody fights), woman's virtue was piety and that probably included carrying out rituals to the household deities (something we know very little about).  [Some Pythagorean Female Virtues by Voula Lambropoulou]

Whoops, checking citations, female virtue according to Lambropoulou is modesty and prudence, Lambropoulou is looking at Hellenistic pseudo-Pythagorean writings for this, although they may well represent authentic tradition.  A speech attributed to Pythagoras in Iamblichus to the women of Croton, emphasizes piety, modesty and sacrifice (as in to the gods).  Hermes (the naming god) is here said to have named the stages of women's life after goddesses due to female piety.

What Iamblichus calls "the justice of women" is noteworthy.  Iamblichus commends women for their practice of loaning articles of clothing and jewelry, without witnesses, depending on where a woman needs something for a particular occasion, and those items are returned without incident.

Another big portion of ancient religion were the Mysteries, which we know little about.  Probably the most important Mystery was the Mysteries of Demeter and Kore.  Kore (the Maiden) is not so much the daughter of Demeter (the grain mother), as she is a different aspect of her.  Together they were called the Two Goddesses (or the goddesses pair).  Kore was kidnapped by Hades, when Demeter found out, she threatened to not allow anything to grow.  Zeus said that Kore could return to the surface if she had not eaten anything in the Underworld.  She had eaten some pomegranate seeds, and so Demeter could not get her back completely.  Still, Zeus and Hades backed down, but not completely.  Kore (now in the Underworld, Persephone) had to remain in the Underworld in the Winter and joined her above in the Summer, and thus we have the seasons.  In many ways Persephone is a fierce-some goddess, but at the same time, for those initiated into the Mysteries, she offers eternal life.  Eleusis is the best known center of the Mysteries, but Metapontum, showing the symbol of eternal life on their coins (the barley-ear) was probably another center, as was another Pythagorean center, Phlius in the Peloponnese.

In Iamblichus' On the Pythagorean Life (sometimes mistakenly called Vita Pythagorae), there is a list of 200 or so men said to be Pythagoreans.  At the end, however, there is a list of 13 women who were Pythagoreans, and for some of these women, there are stories concerning their actions and their words.  In fact, we know of more women disciples of Pythagoreanism, than we know for any other philosophical sect.  Plato, in "The Republic" talks about women also being guardians (the silver) and possibly even the Philosopher-King (or queen in this case).  But he probably got that notion of equality from the Pythagoreans.

Pythagoras' daughter was named Damo, and it was said that when he died, he entrusted his notes and papers to her for safekeeping.  There is a gold ring in the British Museum with a griffin on one side, and the name Damo on the other (on a rotating bezel).  I have no other evidence for it, but I like to think that the griffin is one of the "gold guarding" griffins found in Herodotus, and that the "Damo" the ring refers to is the daughter of Pythagoras.  Alas, the face of the bezel is not a perfect circle, as would be significant for the Pythagoreans.  There is also a floral pattern.  Also "Damo" (with an omicron) could be another name, since the way that the Greeks abbreviated things was through truncation (cutting off the end).

One last object to mention, in the Getty Villa there is displayed a loom weight with the stamp of a coin, a medium fabric (incuse) stater from Metapontum, probably contemporary with Pythagoras' life in Metapontum.  Again, the image is an ear of barley, which Hippolytus says was the symbol of the Eleusinian Mysteries and probably symbolized rebirth.  So letting my imagination work again, I imagine that this loom weight was owned and used by a woman in her daily work.  She pushed the coin displaying the barley ear into her loom weight, as a symbol of her initiation into the Mysteries.  Perhaps also, she was a Pythagorean, and unlike the ring, I don't think that that is too far of a stretch.  Although what Pythagoreanism is, is probably more more practice and will, and less abstract intellect than we imagine.


Edited by franciscosan - 20 Jan 2016 at 23:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2016 at 05:13
Franciscoan:

Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoreanism.

"Pythagoreanism originated in the 6th century BCE, based on teachings, or beliefs held by Pythagoras"
Also please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras for facts as to Pythagoras' life.

You seems to reading from a different book to the rest of  us.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2016 at 22:16
All kinds of books, Women in Antiquity, New Assessments (Lambropoulou), Burkert Lore and Science of the Pythagoreans, Greek Mathematical Philosophy, Proclus Commentary on the First Book of Euclid, a few courses on mathematics on DVD, Luckiesh on Visual Illusions, Virtruvius, Euclid.  I also have my articles on academia.edu about the coins from the Pythagorean poleis (John Francisco).  In other words, I am doing a full court press trying to understand the Pythagoreans, what Wiki has is interesting for people who are vaguely interested, but it doesn't really do justice to the complexity and richness of the Pythagorean tradition.

The problem with Pythagoreans is not just what we know, but how we know it.  Pythagoreans were a secret society, whose initiates adhered to an oath of silence, and a curse on anyone who would reveal their secrets (at least early on, see the case of Hippasus).  Also, Pythagoreanism later got con-fused (fused together with) Platonism.  
But, just remember that for Pythagoreans, women had a touch of the goddess in them.  For the Pythagoreans, men and women were equal, but not the same, not like interchangeable parts, they would be complimentary the way the factors of friendly numbers equal each other (also sometimes called amiable numbers).  We have more names of Pythagorean women than we probably have for all other philosophical sects combined.  These, primarily are listed at the end of Iamblichus, On the Pythagorean Life.  While the stories about Pythagorean woman are not profound, they are often entertaining and edifying.  Again, we know little about household religions and Mystery religions, of which women played a big part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 17:47
Might I re-post this opening post elsewhere,. It is one of the best defenses against what many liars say about Pythagoreans being misogynists or something like it. In fact I have made the argument that he had to leave Greece because he was willing to educate, and treat women as equals.

The Therapeutae who followed him included the Qumranites, Yeshua and Mary in Alexandria etc. Their responsible attitude towards sex (some say celibacy) understands the opportunity of spiritual union over mere procreation. THAT is still needed despite religions fighting against progress and spirituality.

As an aside Croton, is Kroton is Bruttium - is the Brutti who created Empires like Britain which bears their name. Many Masons say Pythagorean thought has ruled since he first began his studies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2016 at 01:50
Bear, as far as I am concerned, it is in the public domain.  I don't know how World Historia views it.  But I am glad you like it and might find it useful.  I would prefer that you use it whole, although perhaps it could use some basic editing for grammar and readibility.  I don't care if you attribute it to me, as long as no one else takes the credit.  I had hoped that it would have spurred some dialogue from women.  More women Pythagoreans are known in antiquity than women philosophers from any other group.  Although most are just names, and the authenticity of works attributed to them is questionable.  I think it would be accurate to say that the works are late and _aspire_ to be Pythagorean.  But I think that they are interesting, nevertheless.
Pythagoras said that he got his ethical doctrines from the Delphic high priestess, Themistoclea, (just as Socrates got his teachings on Love (Plato's Symposium) from the priestess Diotima).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2016 at 04:02
I will give your name and this site credit when I post it at the World-Mysteries forum.

I do not know that you are right to say more women are known in antiquity amongst his followers unless you include the Therapeutae. I can think of a few that were nearly all women - and from right around that area and era - the Amazons. Later on we had the Cathars.

Then there are the Bacchanals and Dianistic, but yes, in those areas where men would not allow women to have an education - such as Greece and the Ur areas - of course. It got worse as time went by and women got burned and dunked in water tied to chairs by the great Christians. You might want to check out Mary Rose D'Angelo in Vatican II and Max Dashu as well.

The authenticity issues are also going to be questionable when you consider the control of all knowledge by insecure deviates. I suppose you know Solon tried to fight for women and allow them to at least own the land left them by their fathers.

Diotima, is one you could give a very high standing to, a muse indeed but how much we will never really know.  The Sibylls and Oracles were often Druidic Dryads - so Pythagoras certainly was down with women since he was a Druid. You can find an article of mine called Women are More Powerful at Matriarchy.com which has been there for over a decade. It created a big stir for a while, women often do not like being equal in the eyes of history. That is a matter we could discuss at length. Some troll the web looking for heroes and macho men for you know what.

Are you saying we have proven writings from Pythagoras?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2016 at 23:40
There is actually a list of women Pythagoreans at the end of Iamblichus' On the Pythagorean Life.  When I say that there are more women philosophers known to us (but often only by name), I am counting recognized philosophical schools, such as but not limited to Platonists, Aristotelians, the Cynics, Stoics, Epicureans, Skeptics, Neoplatonists, etc.

Did Pythagoras' write?  The short answer is who knows?  But, first let us look at a couple of other philosophers who were said to have written nothing.  Socrates and the Stoic Epictetus were said to have written nothing.  However, both of them are said to have written, not for public consumption but just to figure out their own thoughts.  They probably were literate, but they didn't "publish" anything.  Socrates is said to have versified some fables in Plato's Phaedo, but using Plato as a historical source is very problematic and sometimes fraught with contradictions.  Arian's writings on Epictetus say he wrote for his own consumption, perhaps Pythagoras did too.  His daughter Damo was said to keep safe his notes.  Keep safe in this context means not 'publishing' them, not allowing the hoi polloi access to them, consigning them to the fire before debasing them.  Maybe.

The usual assumption in modern scholarship is that Pythagoras did not write.  I think that Pythagoras "wrote" in a different medium, coinage is a medium of communications and I argue elsewhere that he used that.  

There are claims in antiquity that Pythagoras wrote this or that.  Ion of Chios said he wrote hymns and attributed them to Orpheus.  In that case, we might have fragments, but no way of knowing it.  Otherwise, we have various lists of titles, but nothing more than that.  One should realize that forgeries were offered for sale to the libraries of Alexandria and Pergamum, and "authentic" Pythagorean writings were probably something very attractive for a forger to fake and a king to buy.  Who would refuse buying "authentic" Pythagorean writings?  But sometimes something that is too good to be true, is too good to be true.  I am of the opinion that what seems to be obvious titles of Pythagoras' works, those are most likely false, and what seem unlikely, those _might_ just possibly be authentic.  The one I wonder the most about is a history of Kroton (Croton) attributed to him, we have legends about Kroton, and we have a story that the philosopher Xenophanes wrote about the foundation of Velia (Elea).  Xenophanes was critical of the Pythagoreans and I could see him writing about Velia in response to Pythagoras' writing about Kroton (or visa versa).  I could "see" that, but really I don't know, and nobody else probably does either.

Of course, the forger is not just an ancient problem, a forger (and later, murderer) in Salt Lake City would forge Mormon documents (as well as other things).  They would be of a slightly scandalous nature, and he would offer them first to the Church.  The Church would buy them to suppress the scandal which really was false after all.  Quite clever, really, forge something scandalous, say you discovered in your researches, offer it "innocently" to the Church for sale, but of course mention that there are other perspective buyers.  After a preliminary inspection to see if it is "real," it would be buried in the Church archives, never again to see the light of day, if the Church has a choice in the matter.  His name was Mark Hofmann and he got caught because he murdered somebody, (I believe) not because his forgeries got caught.


Edited by franciscosan - 28 Mar 2016 at 23:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2016 at 00:21
The reason you will not find great alchemists doing much writing about anything important is the Magian Law. Plato and Aristotle had to - noble direction and all. But they too did not break the rule regards what is most important such as would cause summary execution - the Pentagon Dodecahedron. You might be aware of the Platonic solids - a small part of it. Check out the Ashmolean Museum.

As I have said before you are repeating Empire propaganda. There are many good things coming out now that women are free to speak. I found one today on Medieval women in Alchemy by Penny Bayer. It is a free doctoral dissertation. There is an excellent amazonwebsite and Max Dushu who I mentioned has the suppressedhistory website.

The original sources require actual discipline and study.

But your interpretations understand the limits of what academia has said - well enough. I sure wish they had not destroyed the works of Poseidonius. It is not just writings like Abraham's Leather Scroll or so many forged crap - Evans faked artifacts as have many others. I have some good stuff Nauvoo and Spiritual Wifery if you are into Mormon origins - they followed a handbook like JWs and Scientology (Not to forget AMORC and Blavatsky or Unity). Sick - you know whats!!

I think I saw that Hoffman story on TV. Forgeries and pseudo this or that are no problem for a person versed in the actual Mysteries enough - and if the forger is versed in them - no problem there either.

What a waste of time I have fortunately not gotten too engrossed with - pseudo Aristotle or the Gospel lies. Well actually I got far too engrossed in the latter but I have so much support in academia now - I can leave it to Atwill and others. Just a little over a decade ago it was Acharya S. and I writing and sharing some thought cobbled together from Rabbinical and other deceits or half truths. The Masons did not try to hide it as much as the paradigm stinkers.


Edited by Robert Baird - 29 Mar 2016 at 00:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2016 at 01:44
I haven't read it yet myself, but you might look at The Philosopher and the Druids:  A Journey Among the Ancient Celts by Philip Freeman, 2006??  I have a reader's proof picked up used, Simon & Schuster
It is about Poseidonius travels in the Celtic world.

I imagine you know about Pytheas of Massalia?

As far as propaganda is concerned, well, we all like to think we are original thinkers, but we are probably not as original as we think.  I can't say that I am not repeating Empire propaganda, because I don't know what it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2016 at 03:24
Dear F

I am not so concerned with being original. Gave that up very early in life after reading all the ancient philosophers. Yes, I do like to create and bring back that which was, in ways to expose what Empires have sought to destroy. I believe one definition of Hellenizing is exactly what I am referring to, and you illustrated exists in academia with no proof of any actual words from most of these people who were well aware of the designs of Empire and the impending demise of morals and Brotherhood. So they built secret societies for disciplined people who would not be Sophists or sell the soul of their women for power.

When you say you doubt the authenticity of the scholarship you are recognizing the effects of propaganda even if it is hard for you to know that which is behind the Hegelian Dialectic or top-down hierarchy designed in Plato's Republic. It has been well preserved and constantly added to with whole doctoral degrees on just it -EMPIRE! There was only two courses available at schools of the bulk of mankind in the Old World - Greek was only available at one or two universities - all the rest just Latin!

Total control - Empire!

The New Testament of Rome - Bible (Vulgate and Septuagint) was written in those poor excuses for a language, which are not good for rhyme or poetry. They and their lies are and were controlled. The Gospels were written to enthrall the masses and blame people for the death of a myth - a major league control meme.

The truth is in what Pythagoras taught and Socrates did. It had to be perverted or Empire would be defeated. (See The Art of War by Lao Tzu).

Celt is a Roman epithet - it is a hammered tool and this is what you get from Rome and history. Epithets and derogatory accounts which make their Empire seem more than it ever was. When they took over Sicily they would not allow the people to name their kids with anything legal but a Roman name - major league MEME! The Greeks said Rome never created anything - just stole it and were barbarians. But they became or were eventually the same.

If your author was writing about the travels of the possibly greatest chronicler of the Keltoi or Ogygia (ancient ones) he should know celt is a name given to ridicule - just like Picti (red shanks), or Ir-land you still see on maps today (Ir is translated as 'lost') but the Emerald Isles were still the fountain of knowledge and you can even see this is the case in the words of a paradigm flunkie named Cahill whose books are Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat.

One of his best selling books is How the Irish Saved Civilization (documents only from the era Rome took over) the other is Gifts of The Jews. I wonder what you think 'devoted ones' means in terms of people in Temple. I presume you have read some of true history - in that region - it is written by Rabbis (like Abaris). They prove Rome wrote their lies to blame the Jews for what Rome did - kill our Savior! Of course they prove a lot more about that myth built around one of their own.


Edited by Robert Baird - 29 Mar 2016 at 03:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2016 at 04:34
It truly is good to see these academic outreaches to reality which seem to have started since I was writing my books, and all over the web in the early part of this millennia. I certainly had no difficulty finding why Pythagoreans and Therapeutae or Qumranites adopted an adept code which would not and did not place one gender above the other. Arguing about who said what and when is not my game, it really does not matter if Pythagoras wrote under the name Orpheus to make himself less of a target for repressive or murderous people, and I do not need the name of many women who I know had to be involved if only because he was a Druid.

"There is little evidence about either Pythagoras or women in antiquity, let alone a combination of the two. The earliest reports about Pythagoras concern men accusing each other of not being true followers of the Master, hence raising the question of who or what actually counted as Pythagorean. As for women in the ancient Greek world, frankly the best evidence that there were any is that we know there were men.


Complaints about lack of evidence, however, can become excuses for intellectual laziness. Feminist scholars of the 1970s made that point, showing that the dearth of knowledge about ancient women was not just the result of inadequate ancient evidence but also of blinkered modern research. Sarah Pomeroy herself was a pioneer: she mined ancient sources for information about women, and produced the landmark 1975 work Goddesses, Whores, Wives, and Slaves: Women in Classical Antiquity. The concerns of this book are similar: rather than an account of ancient Pythagorean philosophy (which is relegated to a brief last chapter authored by Vicki Lynn Harper), the book is conceived as a “social history of women who were Pythagoreans”.

Pomeroy distinguishes between two groups: contemporaries of Pythagoras (circa mid sixth century to early fifth century BC) who feature in later accounts of his life; and female Pythagorean philosophers, who wrote letters and treatises in the late fourth to first century BC. The distinction seems straightforward, but is in fact hard to maintain – not least because women in the two groups often have the same names. We have a letter written by a certain Theano, for example, and this is also the name of Pythagoras’ wife. Perhaps Neo-Pythagorean women named themselves after famous earlier associates of the Master. Or perhaps the letters and treatises purport to be authored by those early women. This would not be strange: pseudo-epigraphic letters are common in ancient literature. They are not straightforward forgeries but rather attempts to give voice to glamorous figures from the past and dramatise their interactions. Pomeroy refuses to view Neo-Pythagorean texts in this manner, and complains that Iamblichus (Pythagoras’ main ancient biographer) “does not distinguish between an original and later bearer of the same name”. The problem is that if we insist on the distinction, we fail to appreciate an ancient literary game. A further problem is that those who do appreciate it often go on to argue that Neo-Pythagorean texts were actually all written by men. Pomeroy, for her part, points out that there is some evidence for literate women in the relevant period. It is easy to see how the argument might descend to the level of schoolyard retorts: “Actually written by women”; “Not”; “Yes”; “So not”; etc.

It would help to reconsider the intellectual framework for the study of Pythagorean women. Social history is, in my view, rather unhelpful – at least in as much as it emphasises “real life” at the expense of the life of the mind. After all, whoever actually wrote the texts discussed in the book intended them to be seen as the work of women – and that is interesting in itself.

More generally, women are prominent in Pythagoreanism. We can draw a general conclusion about social history: real women will have engaged with Pythagorean philosophy even though the details remain unknown. We can also ask what the emphasis on women tells us about Pythagorean philosophy: that question is only partly explored in the book. Answers would focus on the construction of Pythagoras’ religious authority, the purported organisation of his followers into a secret society, everyday norms (including diet, the regulation of sexual intercourse, and other activities that involved women), and the emphasis placed on remaining faithful to a mythical ancient Master.


Pythagorean Women: Their History and Writings

By Sarah B. Pomeroy
Johns Hopkins University Press, 200pp, £32.00
ISBN 9781421409566 and 9573 (e-book)
Published 28 November 2013"


https://www.timeshighereducation.com...009266.article
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2016 at 05:57
I have a love/hate relationship with academia.  I like particular individuals in academia, I dislike political correctness, publish or perish, and the short-sightedness of much scholarship.  There is a story in Tom Clancy about a supply sergeant in Vietnam who asked the Colonel how the top secret offensive was going.  The Colonel and the other officers freaked, trying to figure out who had leaked their planning.  It turned out that nobody had leaked about the offensive, the supply sergeant was just a fish swimming in a sea of (low level) data, he had seen what happened in requisitions before in offensives, and it wasn't anything in particular, but he recognized it again.  Now of course, this story is fictional, but it could have happened, and probably in some fashion has happened.  Likewise we have a sea of low level data from antiquity which, if someone was familiar with it the way the clerk was, they could "crunch the data" and come out with conclusions that nobody has ever even asked before.  I am trying to do that with ancient Greek coins related to the Pythagoreans, and I think I have had some success.  However, unlike an academic, I can spend over ten years studying them and figuring out new angles of insight.  I am not looking at one coin, I am looking at everything "Greek," with a particular focus on Magna Graecia, the name (probably of Pythagorean origin) for Greek Southern Italy.

Oh, I like Cahill, you seem to have a need to put down people, are you sure you are not Donald Trump?
But, seriously, Cahill is not profound, but he is fairly clear, it's something my mom read first, and I could discuss with her.  I don't think that Freeman is heavy hitting either, but I do think that Poseidonius amongst the Druids could be a really interesting story.  Maybe others have done a better job of the story, but I don't have others.

Another book in my library


Edited by franciscosan - 29 Mar 2016 at 06:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2016 at 07:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have a love/hate relationship with academia.  I like particular individuals in academia, I dislike political correctness, publish or perish, and the short-sightedness of much scholarship.  There is a story in Tom Clancy about a supply sergeant in Vietnam who asked the Colonel how the top secret offensive was going.  The Colonel and the other officers freaked, trying to figure out who had leaked their planning.  It turned out that nobody had leaked about the offensive, the supply sergeant was just a fish swimming in a sea of (low level) data, he had seen what happened in requisitions before in offensives, and it wasn't anything in particular, but he recognized it again.  Now of course, this story is fictional, but it could have happened, and probably in some fashion has happened.  Likewise we have a sea of low level data from antiquity which, if someone was familiar with it the way the clerk was, they could "crunch the data" and come out with conclusions that nobody has ever even asked before.  I am trying to do that with ancient Greek coins related to the Pythagoreans, and I think I have had some success.  However, unlike an academic, I can spend over ten years studying them and figuring out new angles of insight.  I am not looking at one coin, I am looking at everything "Greek," with a particular focus on Magna Graecia, the name (probably of Pythagorean origin) for Greek Southern Italy.

Oh, I like Cahill, you seem to have a need to put down people, are you sure you are not Donald Trump?
But, seriously, Cahill is not profound, but he is fairly clear, it's something my mom read first, and I could discuss with her.  I don't think that Freeman is heavy hitting either, but I do think that Poseidonius amongst the Druids could be a really interesting story.  Maybe others have done a better job of the story, but I don't have others.

Another book in my library

Yes, I see what you are doing - and it is another form of propaganda - most easily made to appear as a fact in the eyes of the populace. Just like Statues and frescoes and many other things I could provide evidence of - mere fluff. But when you have a map of the shores of America on a Carthaginian coin in the hands of a Mt. Holyoke N. H. professor making a presentation to a Numismatic Society - that means something. Especially when backed up by numerous other coins all over America found in situ and dated geologically along with Amphorae and things like DNA.

This is real history as is knowing what the Druids did from personal experience. Do you even know what my last name means? As I said it would be good to get the works of Poseidonius but I have enough snippettes in Herodotus or elsewhere.

I just gave you a breakdown on your issues along side all other weak scholars in the words of Pomeroy from Johns Hopkins in the thread here. Try reading and making some sense of it - you might just be able to contribute something worth while to humanity rather than this site which has few participants due to the lack of real scholarship evident or because people got tired of the regime - I know not which. I can see it was once a vibrant place - but I care not much about it right now. It is a waste of time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2016 at 13:09
For those who might be wondering about this supposed Carthaginian coin, I have never heard of it.  I will have to ask friends, although I am highly sceptical.  There is a Persian coin whose reverse is _suspected_ of being a topographical map of a valley near Epheus, or maybe it is just an interesting punch.  Hard really to tell.  There was a hoard of ancient coins discovered in America, near a Spanish Mission in California, probably the collection of a local priest.

Herodotus does not discuss Druids in _my_ copy of Herodotus, and he definitely does not discuss Poseidonius, who is maybe a couple hundred years later.  Of course, maybe the religious caste of 
the Scythians might be considered Druids.

Bear, World Historia is a sleeply little forum, but it is home for me, I hope that you find somewhere you belong.  Areviderci.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2016 at 17:03
franciscosan

Your discussion is over my head I'm afraid.  It's obviously an esoteric subject and I'm inclined just to take you word for most of the facts.  I was wondering if you could tell us non scholars what you feel the significance of Greek coins are in a broader sense.  

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2016 at 02:25
Originally posted by Robert Baird Robert Baird wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have a love/hate relationship with academia.  I like particular individuals in academia, I dislike political correctness, publish or perish, and the short-sightedness of much scholarship.  There is a story in Tom Clancy about a supply sergeant in Vietnam who asked the Colonel how the top secret offensive was going.  The Colonel and the other officers freaked, trying to figure out who had leaked their planning.  It turned out that nobody had leaked about the offensive, the supply sergeant was just a fish swimming in a sea of (low level) data, he had seen what happened in requisitions before in offensives, and it wasn't anything in particular, but he recognized it again.  Now of course, this story is fictional, but it could have happened, and probably in some fashion has happened.  Likewise we have a sea of low level data from antiquity which, if someone was familiar with it the way the clerk was, they could "crunch the data" and come out with conclusions that nobody has ever even asked before.  I am trying to do that with ancient Greek coins related to the Pythagoreans, and I think I have had some success.  However, unlike an academic, I can spend over ten years studying them and figuring out new angles of insight.  I am not looking at one coin, I am looking at everything "Greek," with a particular focus on Magna Graecia, the name (probably of Pythagorean origin) for Greek Southern Italy.

Oh, I like Cahill, you seem to have a need to put down people, are you sure you are not Donald Trump?
But, seriously, Cahill is not profound, but he is fairly clear, it's something my mom read first, and I could discuss with her.  I don't think that Freeman is heavy hitting either, but I do think that Poseidonius amongst the Druids could be a really interesting story.  Maybe others have done a better job of the story, but I don't have others.

Another book in my library

Yes, I see what you are doing - and it is another form of propaganda - most easily made to appear as a fact in the eyes of the populace. Just like Statues and frescoes and many other things I could provide evidence of - mere fluff. But when you have a map of the shores of America on a Carthaginian coin in the hands of a Mt. Holyoke N. H. professor making a presentation to a Numismatic Society - that means something. Especially when backed up by numerous other coins all over America found in situ and dated geologically along with Amphorae and things like DNA.

This is real history as is knowing what the Druids did from personal experience. Do you even know what my last name means? As I said it would be good to get the works of Poseidonius but I have enough snippettes in Herodotus or elsewhere.

I just gave you a breakdown on your issues along side all other weak scholars in the words of Pomeroy from Johns Hopkins in the thread here. Try reading and making some sense of it - you might just be able to contribute something worth while to humanity rather than this site which has few participants due to the lack of real scholarship evident or because people got tired of the regime - I know not which. I can see it was once a vibrant place - but I care not much about it right now. It is a waste of time.

Unfortunately, when someone like you attacks other members of the forum because of your indisputable facts presented, it tends to turn many of us away from your posts, which, in some cases could be quite interesting. But you don't present your posts as the basis for scholarly discussion, but as undeniable fact. This is a pity because I believe that you're destined to be ignored by many members who are in fact, experts in the relevant historical field.

Instead of attacking people who question your claims, why not provide proof of your statements, or admit that what you've written is your theory, thus allowing scholarly debate?


It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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