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Women!!!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2017 at 10:30
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Men are often competitive with each other in a way that would not be respectful towards women.  Men understand the rules implicit of such behavior, whereas women do not understand it, at least not implicitly.  That often leads to the woman being taken advantage of (in terms of social transactions), which is what men would do to a weak male in a similar social position.  Wolves have respect for other wolves, but if you are not a wolf, then you will be defined as prey, (no matter how good of a dog you might be).
Women tend to want to be equal, when it works out being equal, and they tend to want their feminine prerogative when that is advantageous as well.  I am not saying that they're wrong.  For males, who tend to be more rules oriented (vs. relation), it is hard to figure out.  Women don't like being checked out by guys, except when they do.  All that I am certain of is that you can't just come up with a (male) set of rules for (understanding) women, and follow those.  You both have to pay attention to rules, and to women, and you need to when to follow which.  Which after all, is really following the same thing.   It is all very confusing, I am sure because it is so simple.

I am of the Kenny Rogers, 'know when to hold em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run.' philosophy.  love, cherish and respect is good, but what that means can fill a library.
Now of course, women will forgive men of most sins, if they are done through love and respect.

Boy!! Modern women, IMHO, do have an understanding of the male psyche, perhaps better than we do ourselves. These days, again IMHO, any man who tries to manipulate a woman, particularly in business, is likely to find himself slapped down.

Quote All that I am certain of is that you can't just come up with a (male) set of rules for (understanding) women, and follow those.
Vive la difference. As I said, exactly the same, only different.

There are no rules for understanding women, and men have to find out for themselves how to figure out their own female partner. Each are different (there's that word again) and no set of rules can be established to understand your own partner.

What was that word again?

Vanuatu- you're very quiet on this topic, or are you busy sticking pins in dolls of some male members-forum members that is?  Wink




Edited by toyomotor - 16 Feb 2017 at 10:31
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 02:21
I am not saying that women don't understand men, I am saying that my understanding of women fails me.  I think that in organizations, men have a hierarchical structure.  I am not sure that women necessarily fit well into strict hierarchical structures that men create.  Of course, Nietzsche said that women can do anything, including becoming men if they want.  I think he is correct, but I think that women will shortchange themselves if that is their ambition.  Women can fit into a hierarchical structure, but I am not sure if the edges don't get trimmed off to make things fit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 05:34
franciscosan wrote
Quote I am not saying that women don't understand men, I am saying that my understanding of women fails me.

At last, you've hit the nail on the head. Any man who says that he understands women is either an unmitigated liar, or a fool.

As for heirarchical structures, you would be aware of cultures throughout the centuries which have been dominated by women. Some still are today. Women have a place in modern society, equal to men, but with differing roles.

As men, we have to tread very carefully when discussing women in this manner, or we'll have the wrath of womanhood down upon our heads.

Since the adoption of politically correct doctrines, there's no doubt that edges have been trimmed off-which IMHO, is an insult to women, suggesting that they can't fit into the male dominated communities.

Keep them home, barefoot and pregnant, is an old expression that, these days, would be viewed, quite properly, with contempt.




Edited by toyomotor - 17 Feb 2017 at 05:36
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 13:19
Its been very interesting to read this thread. Personally I find most men even these days will attempt some chivalry if they detect a pleasant, accepting attitude from a woman. It's all very subtle but not complicated (as has been noted).
Most women will, attempt some mothering or kindness if they feel a man is pleasant and accepting and I don't mean because there is a promise or hope of a sexual experience. People like to do what comes naturally and going against natural inclinations, like protecting a physically weaker member of the group or child rearing, is an aberration. Occasionally aberration works to our benefit. I don't think forcing everyone to relive the past, real or imagined is beneficial. 
I remain endlessly fascinated in interesting people male or female. These days the natural tendencies that I feel strongest are to look after people who are older or a bit younger than myself.  






The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 23:46
Vanuatu wrote
Quote These days the natural tendencies that I feel strongest are to look after people who are older or a bit younger than myself.  

If everyone else felt and acted this way, there would be far less misery in the world.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2017 at 03:15
We do need to take care of each other. It's not like I'm always good but it feels terrible to ignore sympathetic impulses. Today a radio mouth said that women have always ruled the world, through men. Maybe but it doesn't matter does it? We are just people right?
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2017 at 05:02
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

We do need to take care of each other. It's not like I'm always good but it feels terrible to ignore sympathetic impulses. Today a radio mouth said that women have always ruled the world, through men. Maybe but it doesn't matter does it? We are just people right?

Abso-bloody-lutely. Just two sides of the same coin. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2017 at 00:06
Don't believe all you hear on the radio.  Just because some idiot said he did it for a woman, doesn't mean she wanted him to do it.  Men get crazy ideas, just look at John Hinkley Jr.  Most cultures are patriarchal, so this idea that women rule the world, through men, doesn't really hold up.  
I don't know if you have ever read Homer's Iliad.  There we got the most beautiful woman in the world, Helen of Sparta, who is trapped by her own beauty by Aphrodite, given as a prize in a contest of the goddesses, to reward the judge (Paris/Alexandros) who choose Aphrodite over Athena and Hera as the fairest.  The whole Trojan War is the result of Helen running off with Paris.  But she is hated by most of the Trojans, and by many of the Greeks as well.  She is victim of circumstance just as the heroes are.  Probably because the heroes are active, she is more of victim.
Eventually, Troy was taken and sacked, and Menelaus was going to execute her, but saw her breast and couldn't do it because of her beauty, despite what the rest of the heroes thought.  But if she really had power, don't you think she would have stopped the war and the destruction of Troy, she is pawn to Aphrodite and men's desire.

Women are people, not 'just' people, they are people and wives and mothers and daughters and so forth.  They may also be carpenters, and musicians, and waitresses, stockbrokers and students, etc.  Women are more that "just" people, as are men, albeit in a different way.  It doesn't seem like a very efficient system with women _supposedly_ ruling the world_through_men_.  Sounds like a bogus theory.  Sounds like what drunks would say when sitting around the bar, complaining about "the ol' ball and chain" or what it would be like if they had a girlfriend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2017 at 05:55
Women are not a seperate species, they are of the genus Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

I don't understand what you're saying about "just" women or "just men", it seems to be that you're implying that I, or Vanuatu have devalued women in our/my posts. Nothing could be further from the truth. But women are not some super form of human, they may not have the attributes of the males, but then males don't have the attributes of women.

As I said, two sides of the same coin-equals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2017 at 17:21
Yea, I just meant that equal but different. I wasn't making an argument for women rule the world theory, I just mentioned it. Wouldn't waste my time worrying about it. There must be some historical evidence of women controlling circumstances or people in Greek myth.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2017 at 19:02
Well, there is the story that Queen Omphale made Heracles crossdress....

Arete is an interesting character in the Odyssey, I wonder if she is patterned after an Etruscan queen, the Etruscans were much more equal between the sexes.  There are theories that the Homer who wrote the Odyssey was a woman, because there are so many strong women characters in the Odyssey.  I don't think that any normal scholar these days believes that Homer was a women, but it is kind of a refreshing angle on the material to take and make the argument.  It is a 19th century author that makes the argument, and Robert Graves tells a little story about the girl who (supposedly) wrote the Odyssey.

I think that basic difference between men and women in antiquity, were that women had to worry about dying in childbirth, and men had to worry about being run through with a sword.  I guess either way you look at it, it is all his fault. <grin> 

There is a saying that says something like, "women who behave don't make history."  This is interpreted by people as meaning, 'one should misbehave, so that you (women) _will_ make history.'  But the Mormon women, a historian, who originally said the quote meant that in order to find about women's lives in the past you have to look at journals, letters and other sources.  Traditionally, history has been about the public sphere of interest, or politics, which has been a male domain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2017 at 00:26
Vanuatu wrote (in part)"Personally I find most men even these days will attempt some chivalry if they detect a pleasant, accepting attitude from a woman."

And there's no reason why women shouldn't accept the compliment.

In western society, the are old societal rules about "doing the right thing", it's comprised of good manners and politeness.

If these so-called archaic rules were still adhered to, the world would be a better place.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2017 at 01:38
If someone offers you bait, you should wonder about the hook.

A compliment out of the blue, can be a wonderful thing.  But if there is any more expected in return for it, than a friendly smile.  Well, one has to wonder if it is sincere or is intended as a means for something more.  But women are probably usually able to judge and respond to that pretty well.

How about the rule of thumb from English common law?  Never hit your wife with anything thicker than your thumb.  Not all those archaic rules are good things.  We get nostalgic for the good ol' days, which at the time were not old, nor that good.  I mean, don't get me wrong, some things were better back then, some were worse.  Same today.  As far as education is concerned, the base level of education is higher than the base level before.  However, the peaks of education are lower than the peaks in times before, relative to the base level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2017 at 04:29
franciscosan: Mate, you're skating on this ice. 

Whichever side you part your hair, whether or not you believe in treating women at least as coureously as your male associates, or even better, if I were you I wouldn't say a great deal more on this topic if I were you. Women are likely to find out your name and where you live, and start demonstrating outside your house.Wink
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2017 at 23:00
There are in real life, "knights in shining armor," "nice guys" whatever you want to call them.  But there are also a lot of creeps pretending.  I hope women can tell the difference, but from what I have seen, it ain't necessarily so.

Of course, _I_ am a nice guy:)  Like Socrates, I am a dog that gets mistaken for a wolf.  I am loyal, and I growl at the wicked, and hardly _ever_ piddle on the carpet<grin>.  Throw me a bone every once in awhile, and scratch behind my ears and I'll be happy. woof!

I have been wondering how to get acquainted with more women, toyomotor, and here you say that they'll be flocking to my door!  Now if they would stop throwing things at me, we could go out for dinner, my treat or go dutch whatever they would like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2017 at 01:15
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote (in part)"Personally I find most men even these days will attempt some chivalry if they detect a pleasant, accepting attitude from a woman."

And there's no reason why women shouldn't accept the compliment.

In western society, the are old societal rules about "doing the right thing", it's comprised of good manners and politeness.

If these so-called archaic rules were still adhered to, the world would be a better place.



It's easy to be that way. Just put everyone at ease. It's not about baiting for sex there are plenty of male /female relationships that will never be sexual they are still worthwhile. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2017 at 01:17
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There are in real life, "knights in shining armor," "nice guys" whatever you want to call them.  But there are also a lot of creeps pretending.  I hope women can tell the difference, but from what I have seen, it ain't necessarily so.

Of course, _I_ am a nice guy:)  Like Socrates, I am a dog that gets mistaken for a wolf.  I am loyal, and I growl at the wicked, and hardly _ever_ piddle on the carpet<grin>.  Throw me a bone every once in awhile, and scratch behind my ears and I'll be happy. woof!

I have been wondering how to get acquainted with more women, toyomotor, and here you say that they'll be flocking to my door!  Now if they would stop throwing things at me, we could go out for dinner, my treat or go dutch whatever they would like.

I have known who men make really bad choices concerning women, there is equal opportunity for fools.  
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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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